AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: thecapgunkid on October 02, 2018, 01:03:31 PM
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What's the closest thing to whale oil out there, and where can it be gotten?
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Have been told and have read that Jojoba oil is the modern replacement. Can't tell you more since I never used whale oil. I did just buy a bottle of jojoba to mix with beeswax/crisco to make up some bullet lube. So need to give that a try.
kw
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Do not confuse whale oil with sperm whale oil aka spermaceti. Whale oil is simply the oil rendered from whale blubber and as such is no different than any oil rendered from mammal fat. Sperm whale oil is actually a wax found in a cavity in the head of a sperm whale and used by them for echolocation.
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Thanks for the information, TOF.
I always wondered why the sperm whale was the species specified.
Now, Can you tell me if other whales do not have the same 'fittings' for echolocation?
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After a previous discussion on sperm whale oil, I bought some jojoba oil at the grocery store...natural remedies section. I like it. Tightened my groups and easier to load then just about anything else I tried.
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I always wondered why the sperm whale was the species specified.
Now, Can you tell me if other whales do not have the same 'fittings' for echolocation?
Spermaceti is a waxy substance found in the head cavities of the sperm whale. Spermaceti is created in the spermaceti organ inside the whale's head. The sperm whale is unique in that the organ can contain as much as 500 gallons of sperm oil while other species contain far less. Apparently this method of echolocation is used only by "toothed whales."
The spermaceti contains cetyl palmitate and I have wondered if that is why they are referred to as cetaceans. Been too many years since I took biological nomenclature.
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I recently messaged Dixie Gun Works asking what was in their whale oil substitute they have for sale on their website. They replied they didn’t know and would try and find out from the maker. I haven’t heard anything back yet.
I suspect it is jojoba but who knows?
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tcgk, Here's an article for you: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_transmission_fluid Scroll down to "History" for an answer to your query.
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But note that it was plain whale oil not sperm whale oil that was used in ATF, so we still do not have an answer to what is the closest modern oil to sperm whale oil.
In the 1950s, 1960s, and 1970s, ATF contained whale oil as a friction modifier. But since whale oil would break down at higher temperatures, cars produced in the 1970s and later would not be able to use whale oil because of the higher engine coolant temperatures employed to reduce emissions and save fuel
Dennis
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But Dennis, the OP'er inquired about "whale oil" not sperm whale oil See for yourself:
"What's the closest thing to whale oil out there, and where can it be gotten?" ...the capgunkid
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Yes you are correct but I was under the impression that once T.O.F. explained the difference we were looking for a substitution for the old sperm whale oil.
Now I am curious is ATF a good substitute for sperm whale oil?
Dennis
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I don't have much to add...
But for whatever reason this topic absolutely fascinates me.
Keep it going please.
Mike
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I did get some "synthetic" sperm Whale oil from Dixie. Have not tried it on patches yet. If nothing else, I have a lamp that uses kerosene, and may try the SSWO in that.
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Now I am curious is ATF a good substitute for sperm whale oil?
I doubt it. However, when sperm whale oil was outlawed GM came up with an additive. Prior to that, SPO was used in (only) positraction differentials. Whenever changing the gear lube, this additive was required to be added. It came in a small bottle and was only available thru GM dealerships. It may still be available
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It is my understanding that sperm whale oil, that which comes from the head cavity, was used primarily in the manufacture of various perfumes. The oil rendered from blubber or whale fat is simply whale oil. Oil that is 'tried' out of the fat of other mammals makes wonderful patch lubricant. My experience has been with oil from black bears, marmot, and neatsfoot oil. All work well as advertised with marmot oil #1.
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Read this link. https://www.transmission-products.nl/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/2012_LG_Catalog.pdf
There is more in the link, but the following covers the basic. Dexron type ATF is another substitute for whale sperm oil.
Years ago, sperm whale oil was used as additives in virtually all lubricants because of its exceptional lubricity (wetting agent) and heat resistance.
Sperm whale oil was so effective in ATF, that transmission fluid was generally never changed. Over 30 million pounds of sperm whale oil per year was used in lubricants alone.
In 1972, the Endangered Species Act outlawed the killing of whales and the use of whale oil.
Since no suitable replacement for whale oil was available, transmission failures skyrocketed from just under one million per year, to over eight million by 1975.
International Lubricants, Inc. (ILI) in conjunction with Dr. Philip Landis, a highly distinguished research chemist who headed the Mobil Oil Applied Lubrication Research Group, developed and patented the first and only high-temperature sperm whale oil replacement—Synthetic Liquid Wax Ester (LXE®) Technology.
LUBEGARD’s unique synthetic LXE Technology is proven to actually outperform the sperm whale oil additives.
ILI’s ground-breaking research has led to research grants in excess of $2 million from the U.S. Department of Agriculture, the Department of Defense and the Soy Bean Board. The Agricultural Research and Commercialization Corporation, a division of the USDA, believed so strongly in ILI’s products and research, they had invested and owned stock in the company.
Today, LUBEGARD Automatic Transmission Fluid Protectant is the number one product used in the professional transmission rebuild industry, and the only product of its kind to be used and approved by major automobile manufacturers (OEM’s).
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I would expect a nice fat groundhog, late to the den, would be chock full of good oil rendering fat. that fat is located around the organs inside the cavity.
The outside fat creates more grease than oil. Do be careful with the heat - the lowest heat (double boiler) produces the best oil. With the Marmots, I just used
my Coleman stove and a pot- didn't know any better and got good usable oil/grease. Terrific patch lube and boot water proofer. Don't let the dog chew them.
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It is my understanding that sperm whale oil, that which comes from the head cavity, was used primarily in the manufacture of various perfumes.
Taylor,
I believe you are referring to ambergris, which I think also comes from the head cavity.
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Re: ambergris, Have a look at this: https://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2012/08/120830-ambergris-charlie-naysmith-whale-vomit-science/
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What difference does it make? You can’t get whale oil anymore. And what is touted as an equivalent, you have no idea what’s in it. Use natural grease, and tallow, and avoid all kinds of issues.
Hungry Horse
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Dave: yes that's it!
HH: It's an interesting discussion without a resolution...
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(https://image.ibb.co/c5APB9/images_1.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://image.ibb.co/chi0jU/images.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://image.ibb.co/kDkVjU/299px_Stripping_blubber_from_a_whale.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
Rendering whale blubber into oil.
Robby
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I have been using sperm oil for lube and oiling since the late 1950's. Nothing better.
It is like comparing apples and oranges.
I grew up in Wichita, Kans not to far from Southwst Grease and Oil. They made refined petroulem products including ATF.
Sperm oill was the one property that allowed ATF to work. For about $20.00 you could by a barrel of "overage". They got railroad tank cars of sperm oil. "Overage" was the extra left in the tank and the amount put in to adjust for spillage. Usually you got either a 30 ga.l barrel, sometimes you got a 55 gal. barrel, depending what was left over.
Have not found a true replacement for it.
Carney
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since sperm whale oil is really a wax if i were to look for a substitute other than jojoba i might try "liquid candle". i remember the old trannys and adding neatsfoot oil when they started slipping and the gm additive, .......
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since sperm whale oil is really a wax if i were to look for a substitute other than jojoba i might try "liquid candle".
Wax is a chemical term. There are many types of waxes, so don't assume that its like beeswax or candle wax. Also, jojoba is a plant oil, not an animal oil. It's pressed, not rendered.
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not assuming that at all dave. just throwing a thought out there for what it's worth which is likely next to nuffin
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not assuming that at all dave. just throwing a thought out there
Mark,
I was doing the same thing knowing full well that others probably would assume it.
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It is my understanding that sperm whale oil, that which comes from the head cavity, was used primarily in the manufacture of various perfumes.
Taylor,
I believe you are referring to ambergris, which I think also comes from the head cavity.
I'm probably repeating (poorly) the same info that was in Mavens link. But I believe ambergris is a product of the digestive tract of the sperm whale. They eat squid and the squid's beak can't be digested. So the digestive tract coats the beaks with a substance to protect the gut until they can be expelled. Whether they are expelled as vomitus or in the feces, I don't recall.
Mike
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I believe spermiceti oil is from the head cavity
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Thanks, guys. Interesting comments and reading.
Anyway, barring ATF because it's industrial and loaded with more ingredients than a Twinkie, what's the best substitute? Everybody thinks Jojoba?
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It sounds to me like what's needed is a compound that can withstand high temperatures not bind with carbon or sulpher and be slippery enough to efficiently get the projectile out the muzzle. Does anyone think silicon spray might be a possible? My other thought is dry lube used on jewelry industry cutting burrs https://www.riogrande.com/Product/stick-burlife-lubricant/117003
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Thanks, guys. Interesting comments and reading.
Anyway, barring ATF because it's industrial and loaded with more ingredients than a Twinkie, what's the best substitute? Everybody thinks Jojoba?
Not that I'm an expert, but I like Jojoba. It is pretty slippery and all my patches could be used again. no burning or smoldering. I cut patches to around 1.5x1.5 and stack them in an old plastic bullet box. Spray a bit on top and let it sit over night. Capillary effect eventually saturates all the patches and if not, add some more. Should be uniformly damp, but not dripping. I've used the same box for 2 months now and it doesn't seem to be drying out.
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Interesting discussion. I can only add that I bought some of that Dixie whale oil substitute back in the late ‘70’s when I was a tenderfoot muzzleloader and it smelled just like fish oil. Bad rotting fish oil. Didn’t like the strong fishy bilge water smell and threw it out. I can’t say what they are offering for sale as a substitute now.
I haven’t found anything more slicker than bear oil made from real bears and it doesn’t smell bad which is a bonus.
Other’s mileage may vary.
Regards.
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To expand on TOF's accuracy.
The oil from the head cavity of the sperm whale is technically an "oily wax" in the chemistry books. Exceptionally unique. The only other "source" being the jojoba bush fruit. That being jojoba oil.
With the sperm whales. The oil rendered from the blubber was used for lighting. The head cavity oil was the lubricant. The head cavity oil is somewhat volatile meaning that it will over time evaporate. It was considered to be the only thing to use in clocks. Used in the grandfather clocks with the long chains and weights.
In addition to the early automatic transmission fluids it was used as one of the plasticizing agents in polyvinyl chloride compounds to impart low temperature flexibility.
The so-called waxy portion of the head cavity oil is now seen as cetyl alcohol in candle making. A man made version of the cetyl alcohol wax. If you cooled the head cavity oil it would drop out what looked like a wax. At one time they would show the temperature on the package which would indicate the quality of the oil. We used the cetyl alcohol wax material as a suspending agent in PVC flooring resins. You will also see it in Chap Stick as it acts as an emulsifier between the water and the petrolatum wax used in Chap Stick. Of course today all of the cetyl alcohol is man made.
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Forgot to mention.
The head cavity oil was almost odorless while the blubber oil would have a rancid odor by the time it went onto the market. Any mixing of the two would give the head cavity oil the rancid odor. Good difference in price between the two oils.