AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: yellowhousejake on October 03, 2018, 05:00:58 AM
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Silly question maybe, but I ain't afraid.
Why do I never, ever, ever see grease in SMR grease holes?
DAve
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It’s greasy.
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Rodents love it!!! :o
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Seen some pictures of old ones that looked like there was grease in there.
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;) ;) ;).... Well,.... Now you have,.... .45 cal made to be shot, not looked at,... regards, Cades Cove Fiddler,...
(https://preview.ibb.co/mMtwrz/23031608_10212861323039799_5512584440462259507_n.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fRxd4K)
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Well, thank you. It just seemed funny to me that everyone was drilling holes in their stock but not putting grease in the hole. If the grease hole worked, I would think you would use it. If it didn't work, then maybe we don't really know how they used it in the 19th century.
I was trying to understand how it worked. If I charged the barrel, then I could not level the rifle to grease a patch. If I greased the patch and then set the butt on the ground, where would I put the patch while I used two hands to pour the charge and retrieve a ball, ramrod, etc?
DAve
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The patch was more likely a strip of cloth. Dab a portion of grease near the end and leave it hanging on your bag. Measure and pour powder in the barrel. Place strip of cloth on muzzle and press ball flush with muzzle. Cut cloth even with muzzle and send it home with ramrod.
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Well, thank you. It just seemed funny to me that everyone was drilling holes in their stock but not putting grease in the hole. If the grease hole worked, I would think you would use it. If it didn't work, then maybe we don't really know how they used it in the 19th century.
I was trying to understand how it worked. If I charged the barrel, then I could not level the rifle to grease a patch. If I greased the patch and then set the butt on the ground, where would I put the patch while I used two hands to pour the charge and retrieve a ball, ramrod, etc?
DAve
You’re overthinking it.
Grab the rifle vertical in front of the lock, retrieve a shooting patch from your bag, swipe it about the grease hole, then muzzle it, give ball, ram.
The holes must’ve been for grease since originals have been found with old tallow in them and even “dry” holes have been known to give forth liquified tallow in the hottest of suns. Pre-cut patches were also known and used, at least since the 19th century.
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Guys,
Here is a close-up photo of a grease hole in a SMR that I own. The stuff is now hard and it looks like bees wax. I have noted a lack of staining in the wood near the grease hole. I believe that if softer grease were to be used in the hole that there would be evidence of staining due to the softer grease penetrating the wood.
Jim
(https://i1137.photobucket.com/albums/n514/JamesEverett/Guns/Virginia/100_59131a.jpg) (http://s1137.photobucket.com/user/JamesEverett/media/Guns/Virginia/100_59131a.jpg.html)
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Another useful thing is that the grease hole allows a stock of lubricant and protectant to always be on the gun. I’m having one added to my Tennessee Valley Muzzleloading rifle which I’ve recently submitted my order for.
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A square hole on this one
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.shrewbows.com%2Frons_linkpics%2Fhouse-gun1.jpg&hash=5373ffd7dd1498d92c307ab1e406adc061caa927)
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I am a little hesitant with my post, but here goes. I have given quite a bit of thought to the "grease hole", and have a hard time with convincing myself that it was used for containing grease to lube a patch. Not saying it did not, just hard for me to comprehend. If there were grease in the hole, it would stain, run, attract insects, dirt/debris, get all over the shooters arm and many other non desirable things - in my opinion. I have noted that some posts in the past have mentioned the hole on old relics containing a hard tallow/wax type substance and some (as above) mention an apparent beeswax substance. I can speculate to myself that it was a "wax hole" (some combination) for keeping a small supply of parts lubricant or more likely to me, a supply to rub into the stock to aid in weatherproofing. Just putting my thoughts out there for consideration.
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I think you may be half right. Calling it a grease hole is misleading. It was a tallow hole, and often called a “ tallor hole” by the mountain folk. Grease could have been used in it in the winter, in the southern regions where this feature is common, but not in the summer. So the most likely material to be found in such a hole, would be some sort of hard tallow combined with just enough bear, or venison tallow to allow it to transfer to a patch with just a little rubbing. I think the consistency of this tallow mixture would be similar to that of a modern cheap shoe polish.
It is surprising how many old Southern mountain rifles found their way to the West Coast. Over the years I probably have seen seven,or eight, of them here in Northern California.
Most show signs of rodent activity around the tallow hole, a sure fire sign that some sort of tallow once resided there. Two showed signs of either being chard on the inside of the hole, with a hot iron, or burnished to near ignition with a hardwood dowel. Those are the only two I have ever seen with this feature.
Hungry Horse
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My Mathew Gillespie NC flint rifle has a rectangular grease box that has remnants of its contents. It definately contains a high percentage of bees wax. I used to do displays for Transylvania County NC Heritage Day events and when the hot sun got on that grease box the contents would become very runny and you could smell the bees wax. I believe it was bear or hog fat mixed with enough bees wax to keep it solid enough not to run under normal conditions. It only became runny when sitting in direct sun light.
Dennis
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Hungry Horse, you bring up another interesting consideration that I have discussed at length with a friend. Could that hole at times have been used to grind up the coarser gun powder used as the main load, to produce a finer powder that could have been used for priming? I am thinking that someone off on an extended trek would want to lessen the amount of items carried. When conditions allowed and the need arose, the user could take some of the powder from their horn, grind it up in the hole with a stick (dowel) to replenish their current needs for priming powder. Just another thought.
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I think you’re applying twenty first century thinking to 18th and 19th century situations. They rarely used priming specific powder.
Hungry Horse
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I think you’re applying twenty first century thinking to 18th and 19th century situations. They rarely used priming specific powder.
Hungry Horse
Interesting.
Regarding grease used in the hole, can we be reasonably certain the substance within would have been used for the greasing of patch materials?
Also, were round holes more common than square ones?
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It was relatively hard tallow, what in heavens name do you think they were greasing with it other than patches. I’m pretty darn sure it wasn’t lip balm, or hemorrhoid, cream. Yes round holes are the most common, but square holes, and even a few teardrop shaped holes are known.
Hungry Horse
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It was relatively hard tallow, what in heavens name do you think they were greasing with it other than patches. I’m pretty darn sure it wasn’t lip balm, or hemorrhoid, cream. Yes round holes are the most common, but square holes, and even a few teardrop shaped holes are known.
Hungry Horse
Hungry Horse, thank you. I really like the way they look, add a sort of rustic charm and look real good on a plainer type gun. I know of one member on a different muzzleloader forum who really like his taller hole and uses it often.
Anyone else actually use a tallow hole?
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It was relatively hard tallow, what in heavens name do you think they were greasing with it other than patches. I’m pretty darn sure it wasn’t lip balm, or hemorrhoid, cream. Yes round holes are the most common, but square holes, and even a few teardrop shaped holes are known.
Hungry Horse
Hungry Horse, thank you. I really like the way they look, add a sort of rustic charm and look real good on a plainer type gun. I know of one member on a different muzzleloader forum who really like his taller hole and uses it often.
Anyone else actually use a tallow hole?
Yes I have used it on several of my rifles, works good for me. I have used bear oil mixed with beeswax and also Crisco mixed with beeswax.
In regards to whether they actually used the grease holes, yes I have seen several original rifles wth remnants of grease in the bottom of the holes. A guy once showed me his full stock Philip Gillespie rifle that had a full 4 piece patchbox, I opened it and the cavity was slam full of tallow. It had turn yellow from age and still had the appearance of patches being lubed with tallow. The owner had the bag/horn set with bullet mold, nipple pick, patches, bullet bag, everything but patch lube which he kept in the patch box.
I saw another Gillespie that had a nice little cap box in the stock, open the lid and it had remnants of tallow in the bottom.
Dennis
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Silly question maybe, but I ain't afraid.
Why do I never, ever, ever see grease in SMR grease holes?
DAve
Because maybe you haven't been looking long. It's in my TN Rifle always, and I've seen it in others, and I've seen it faked with paraffin.
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It was relatively hard tallow, what in heavens name do you think they were greasing with it other than patches. I’m pretty darn sure it wasn’t lip balm, or hemorrhoid, cream. Yes round holes are the most common, but square holes, and even a few teardrop shaped holes are known.
Hungry Horse
Hungry Horse, thank you. I really like the way they look, add a sort of rustic charm and look real good on a plainer type gun. I know of one member on a different muzzleloader forum who really like his taller hole and uses it often.
Anyone else actually use a tallow hole?
Yes I have used it on several of my rifles, works good for me. I have used bear oil mixed with beeswax and also Crisco mixed with beeswax.
In regards to whether they actually used the grease holes, yes I have seen several original rifles wth remnants of grease in the bottom of the holes. A guy once showed me his full stock Philip Gillespie rifle that had a full 4 piece patchbox, I opened it and the cavity was slam full of tallow. It had turn yellow from age and still had the appearance of patches being lubed with tallow. The owner had the bag/horn set with bullet mold, nipple pick, patches, bullet bag, everything but patch lube which he kept in the patch box.
I saw another Gillespie that had a nice little cap box in the stock, open the lid and it had remnants of tallow in the bottom.
Dennis
What a thrill! So the patches were pre-cut? Can you describe their appearance? Were they round or square, of striped ticking or other fabric?
A bit of subject I suppose but some seem to think pre-cut patches are mostly a modern thing and that the old timers used strips of patching cut at the muzzle. As a student of the old methods I’d love to know which one was really done or if in fact both were done in “them days” as it were.
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This is a what came first the chicken or the egg question. Could patch boxes, both wooden lid variety, and metal type, have been invented to stem the problem of rodents gnawing on the gunstock around the tallow hole?
Hungry Horse
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HH: clever thinking, and entirely within possibility. But someone will say, "there is no documentation so no, it is not the reason!"
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What a thrill! So the patches were pre-cut? Can you describe their appearance? Were they round or square, of striped ticking or other fabric?
A bit of subject I suppose but some seem to think pre-cut patches are mostly a modern thing and that the old timers used strips of patching cut at the muzzle. As a student of the old methods I’d love to know which one was really done or if in fact both were done in “them days” as it were
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The only patches I have seen were square, some plain solid white (now yellowed) cotton, have also seen stripped cotton ticking also cut square. Never run across rolls of patch material but I am sure that was carried by some. Bear in mind most of this patching material probably was used in the early to mid 1900's probably does not represent what was used in the first half of the 1800's.
Dennis
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What a thrill! So the patches were pre-cut? Can you describe their appearance? Were they round or square, of striped ticking or other fabric?
A bit of subject I suppose but some seem to think pre-cut patches are mostly a modern thing and that the old timers used strips of patching cut at the muzzle. As a student of the old methods I’d love to know which one was really done or if in fact both were done in “them days” as it were
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The only patches I have seen were square, some plain solid white (now yellowed) cotton, have also seen stripped cotton ticking also cut square. Never run across rolls of patch material but I am sure that was carried by some. Bear in mind most of this patching material probably was used in the early to mid 1900's probably does not represent what was used in the first half of the 1800's.
Dennis
I see, thank you sir! If I may hazard another inquiry, what then would be an appropriate patching material for the 1830s for a squirrel rifle? Were pre-cut patches in use during this time, were the patches round or square (or both) or carried in strips for cutting at the muzzle? Was striped ticking used for this purpose then, or something else?
I apologize for so many questions. Please tell me to shut up if I am being a bother!
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You have 138 posts. I have 9292. No one has ever told me to shut up. These guys are so polite!! Relax.
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I see, thank you sir! If I may hazard another inquiry, what then would be an appropriate patching material for the 1830s for a squirrel rifle? Were pre-cut patches in use during this time, were the patches round or square (or both) or carried in strips for cutting at the muzzle? Was striped ticking used for this purpose then, or something else?
I really can't do anything but give a somewhat educated guess here since I doubt that any of us have iron clad proof that we have seen period patches that were used in the early 1800's. Even if we did have that proof it would be like looking in my shot pouch and saying ok Dennis uses round pre-cut linnen patches so everyone in 2018 is doing the same. So with that in mind here is my guess:
I suspect many of the mountain folk used whatever they could get their hands on that worked half-way decent for them. I suspect others used rolls of pillow ticking then cut the patch at the muzzle when loading. Still others preferred to cut their patches and store them in their shot pouch or like some I have seen photos of strung them on thread hanging from leather straps. Its my understanding that some early shooters used soft deer skin for patch material (hope someone else can elaborate on this).
Those old guys had thoughts and ways just like us, the only differences were the materials/tools that they had access to versus what we today have access to. Each one was as smart, dumb, cantankerous, stubborn as we are today ;D they had their own ideas of what worked best for them.
Dennis
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Documentation is a wonderful thing. It gives us insight into days past and how things were done in that particular instance of according to that individual.
However, the notion that if there is no documentation then something didn't happen is dangerous, or at least has no foundation in reality.
Try to imagine all of the mundane minutiae that is involved in our daily life...
How many squares of toilet tissue do you use when visiting the throne? How do you fold and apply those squares of tissue?
200 years from now will there be discussions on toilet tissue use? Will people demand that since one person documented their personal habit of use that everyone did it the same way?
Will there be statements like... "There is no documentation supporting the notion that people used more than four folded squares at a time. It didn't happen!"
Now that we've all had a grin...
I would guess that backwood folks of that era used what patching material they had available to them... Homespun, animal skins, or other natural available (FREE) materials. And everyone's method of employing those materials varied according to availability, shooting style, and even upbringing or instruction.
Mike
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Silly question maybe, but I ain't afraid.
Why do I never, ever, ever see grease in SMR grease holes?
DAve
Because maybe you haven't been looking long. It's in my TN Rifle always, and I've seen it in others, and I've seen it faked with paraffin.
Well, you are probably spot on with that. I have looked where I could and watched any rifle I have seen at the range and at Friendship, never anything but an empty hole after 40 years of curiosity. But, I ain't been everywhere and original rifles I have seen very few of. What they did, and what we do, are often miles apart.
The side conversation on patching material is very interesting to me. Like shoelaces and ticket stubs, the consumables are the least understood, and least preserved, of any culture/time period.
DAve
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You guys with a good memory help me out. There was a gentleman, Marshall Ralph Hooker who had a rifle that belonged to Danial Boone in his later years. It was full stock, brass trim, no carving and no patchbox. What it did have was a grease hole with some grease-beeswax residue in it.It was well ate on by the rats or mice. In the 70-80s he wrote a few articles for Muzzleloader.
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Larry, there is a picture of that rifle in his book if you have a copy.