AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: Mike Lyons on November 15, 2018, 02:48:32 AM
-
I’ve got a mason jar of apple cider vinegar mixed with a cleaned steel wool pad and cut nails and the same mixed with white vinegar. Seems the white vinegar bubbles more and stays clearer. The apple cider vinegar is amber in color to start with but seems to be getting more cloudy than the white concoction. When you shake them they are both cloudy but the apple cider one is much dirtier in appearance. The white vinegar separates quicker when left to settle and just appears cleaner. The top two are settled and the bottom two have been shaken. I have a small piece of maple stock that I’m going to stain on each side after it stops bubbling and working.
(https://preview.ibb.co/mXEozf/554-D149-E-F323-4145-A13-F-7-BA68-CFAEC5-B.jpg) (https://ibb.co/k0dFef)
(https://preview.ibb.co/b3NK5L/8-AE26276-0066-4285-B5-BC-4-DC8-BE3340-DE.jpg) (https://ibb.co/c561Kf)
(https://preview.ibb.co/mUDFef/7-D2-CA599-1231-4-C39-92-D9-A4-BAFFF12052.jpg) (https://ibb.co/itAHs0)
(https://preview.ibb.co/jxDsQL/4-DE40-F58-17-E4-4002-9-D3-B-F6-F454864-FC1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nQYsQL)
-
The Amber goom ba might be oxidation (rust). If the metal is exposed to above the surface of the vinegar it will do that. When I keep it completely immersed it makes a black residue that can be strained out. That's with plain white vinegar. never tried the cider vinegar.
Keep us posted on your results.
-
For use on leather it takes weeks before it works properly. I heated a batch in a double boiler to speed things along. Still took weeks to work right. It made the leather indigo blue.
-
For use on leather it takes weeks before it works properly. I heated a batch in a double boiler to speed things along. Still took weeks to work right. It made the leather indigo blue.
My batch also gave my leather a blue hue when initially applied. Once I let it dry and rubbed it down with several coats of Neat's foot oil, the leather turned black.
David
-
I used it on a horn strap and it turned the leather a blueish dark gray over time it has turned to a dark gray. I was trying for black.
Dennis
-
I used a very red vinegaroon that was a result of Wade Patton's file sharpening suggestion. I used it on a maple stock after I wasn't pleased with aqua Fortis results. The iron oxide ,if that's what it is turned very black after applying heat. I rubbed it back and was able to reveal the figure in the wood
-
Goo, do you have pics of that rifle??
I have a few gallons of that in the basement.... actually, I just got lazy after my files were done. I took the files out...but never carried the bucket to dispose of it. About half of it evaporated. The last week's it's been holding strong.
I have scraps to test it on...but would be nice to see a rifle finished with it.
-
If you want to avoid the fermentation time, you can dissolve some ferric nitrate crystals in water just the same as if you are going to stain wood. The results are the same as the vinagaroon.
If you soak the leather in a strong tea to add tannin it will darken up some.
-
I'll give it some time to work but I'm curious if using white vinegar will produce the same results on wood and leather as apple cider vinegar. My guess right now is that the apple cider vinegar concoction will give a more satisfying result because it starts off amber in color. One is made from apples and the other from grains, grapes or other stuff. White vinegar is normally used for cleaning because it is clear where Apple vinegar is used for consumption. Using apple vinegar for cleaning would stain. I think I'm after that nice additional stain color that apple cider vinegar produces but, I may be wrong. I need to stain some knife scales and might use the one that looks the best to complete that project when this is over.
-
Goo, do you have pics of that rifle??
I have a few gallons of that in the basement.... actually, I just got lazy after my files were done. I took the files out...but never carried the bucket to dispose of it. About half of it evaporated. The last week's it's been holding strong.
I have scraps to test it on...but would be nice to see a rifle finished with it.
Hi Mauser I'll try to get time soon to post a pic
-
I made mine as a byproduct of putting a bunch of needle files in cider vinegar. I did one rifle stock with it and it turned out great. After a few months, the vinegaroon left in the bottle turned a cloudy red color. It no longer worked on maple. It did stain leather black. The only problem was that it had a terrible smell when put on the leather. (I suspect the source of the smell was the leather.) I had to soak it for a few days in baking soda and water to get the smell out.
-
I have made this before, and used it as a leather dye. I happen to machine cast iron, so that is what I use, as the old makers did. I have never tried steel wool, and I have only made one, one pint batch of the stuff, since a little goes a long ways. I have used it to stain leather only, so no idea how it might turn out on a stock. But my hunting pouch, 3 hip holsters and a shoulder rig have used less than a quarter pint of it, since it is strong stuff.
You really need cast iron for this, not steel or steel wool. I suspect this is why some are getting a bluish tint. My leather I have stained with this is not exactly black, but instead a very, very dark brown. The blue tinge may be coming from chromium in steel... Just a guess. Unless your cut nails are 100+ years old, they are probably steel. A good source for cast iron is old engine blocks. I would show a pick of my hunting pouch, but discovered my battery is dead... lol.
M. E. Pering
-
The Cordwainer who taught me said it was the grease ( or additional coat of oil based dye, or polish ) that turned the old timers leather deeper black.
I always get a charcoal grey on my shoes but its most redeeming quality is, no matter how you splosh it on, it'll come out even every time. I wish you could see the looks on people when I am on site coloring a pair of batts.
-
I always use cider vinegar, never use steel wool but use wrought nails and bits, skim more than I strain and always get black after oiling.
-
Goo, do you have pics of that rifle??
I have a few gallons of that in the basement.... actually, I just got lazy after my files were done. I took the files out...but never carried the bucket to dispose of it. About half of it evaporated. The last week's it's been holding strong.
I have scraps to test it on...but would be nice to see a rifle finished with it.
Hi Mauser here is a pic of the fowler I referenced not great but it is vinegaroon and heat gun after aqua fortis and heat gun wasnt quite to my liking.
(https://preview.ibb.co/jnNBAL/P1040124.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bLqL4f)
-
I got a good batch using white vinegar and brake rotor/drum turnings from the repair shop.
-
Here is 4 months in. I don’t see a difference in apple cider and distilled vinegar.
(https://i.ibb.co/myBs47t/755-E7-CC1-36-C9-4415-A460-BA7-B9-CB76453.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dpc9Dy6)
(https://i.ibb.co/DgJb77D/B299-C148-CB53-4739-BA68-BD42956-A7474.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vvFBJJx)
(https://i.ibb.co/tPTgTfC/6064-B154-1-E48-4996-9-F01-3-A33963-F7335.jpg) (https://ibb.co/yBctcTs)
-
I won't even think about getting it anywhere near leather ever again. I have tried and tried, with repeated disastrous results. Turns leather blue, and then turns it to tissue paper. I am told that it requires real oak tanned leather, not "vegetable tanned".... but I can't afford that! :D I don't like black leather anyway.
I've tried it on maple, and it (sometimes) makes a good color, though I find it duller and less lively than aqua fortis, but still far better than aniline dye (when it works, anyway).
-
I just did a couple quick tests with mine.....
Out of 4 gallons of white vinegar, there's not much left... maybe a half gallon.
I used it to soak a bunch of neglected files.
I hit 2 different pieces of maple. One turned out with a nice color. The other turned black and wouldn't blush.
I'm going to strain it and jar it and experiment with it more.
Not sure if rusty old files is a good material to use or not...
-
Many years ago when I worked leather,I was told to first stain the leather brown, then black to prevent the gray/blue tint,It worked for me.Try it on a scrap of leather and see for yourself.
-
In the old days, blacksmiths used vinegar to dissolve the fire scale off of new forgings. The fire scale is very hard and removing it made filing much easier. A day or two usually takes most of the scale off. I use a tub about two feet long to soak forgings and I have an old cast iron lamp base permanently swimming in the juice just for fun. The tub has a brew that's about two years old and I add a gallon of new vinegar from time to time to keep the level up. If your wood comes out too grey, try a wash of hydrogen peroxide after it's dry, that will redden things up a bit. I periodicly add a bottle of peroxide to the vinegar brew just to keep the voodo alive.
-
The initial coat was vinegaroon. I used LMF maple and a wash of BC Colonial Red to get the red cast. I worked the gray/black look back before the additional staining.
(https://i.ibb.co/F8Kpvgh/20190404-151842.jpg) (https://ibb.co/L98Kwn0)
-
I have a batch that is over 3 years old now. I use white vinegar because it is more acidic. I use old small nails, pieces of scrap from the saw, old barbed wire, ect. I never use steel wool anymore. It is almost impossible to get all the oil out of it. When I apply my mix to vege-tan, it turns black in just minutes. Not blue. Black. I keep wiping it on until it appears even, let dry and repeat. Also, I never bother to skim it. I just keep adding to the jar when it gets low. More vinegar and more metal if needed. Most of my work dries with a fine rust dust on it, but that comes right off with a cloth rub down. Ageing is the key. Let your mix age for at least a month before using. Longer is better. Another trick I learned, is that if you have an area of the leather that just does not want to take, wipe while it is wet with 4/0 steel wool using very, very light pressure. Almost just floating it over the area. When it seems to have taken well, let dry, then dampen and rub with a cloth to get the sheen back.
-
I have a question for those who have used vinegaroon to dye leather black...is it colour fast? In other words, if I dyed a sword baldric black, and wore a white shirt under it, would I be in trouble?
-
Its color fast like nitric on a piece of maple.
-
James, that is good news. It is difficult to get the stain of Ferric Nitrate off wood even with steel wool. And time just makes it darker.
-
Yep, a chemical reaction as opposed to a dye. It can be quite harsh on junk tandy type veg tan though.
-
James, Tandy leather is all I ever use, because I can buy it local and hand pick. I've never had a problem with any of it, and I buy their economy pieces. I don't buy their high grade. I did buy a piece once that smelled like week old death. It stunk up my whole shop. When I brought it home from the store, My wife gave me two minutes to get it out of the house, but it was a great piece to work with, and the finished products did not have the smell.
-
Wick,
I know a few that have had luck with Tandy. I haven't. Hand picking was always involved in the success stories. The pieces I tried cracked and reacted badly to the vinegroon. The same batch on other tannages did not have that effect.
-
I have no problem with the tandy leather but I too hand pick it.
My last jug of vinegaroon was made with Heinz "Cleaner" vinegar. All the vinegar on the shelf was 4% or 5% acidic except the Heinz stuff was 6%.
-
almost every time I have ever tried it on leather, the leather would turn some shade of blue, and while it seemed to be ok for a while, give it a few weeks (or less) and it would turn the leather into tissue paper. Only once did I get it to turn something close to black (on a noticeably nicer piece of leather with a darker color and firmer hand), and it lasted longer before it started cracking. I've never had any real oak tanned leather (it's way too expensive for me), but supposedly it works well with it. I gave up trying long ago. ;) I am told that most "vegetable tanning" is done now with mimosa.
-
I have to agree with James on Tandy. I got two hides in a row, handpicked by myself in the store, which turned out bad. One tooled like a rubber tire, and rejected dye. The most recent one dyed fine, but the dye would leach back out and never cure/dry/harden. Never again will I buy leather there.
Again I ask, why vinegaroon acid on leather when we have quality dyes? Would you take your nice leather coat, belt or shoes and rub them with acid? I am betting many original pouches bit the dust due to acid eating the leather and stitching.
Your products, your materials, your time. I will stick with modern dyes on leather.
God bless, Marc
-
Stophel and Mark, I have not had that type of experience with Tandy or with the use of Vinegaroon.
FWIW, just about any application of any dye to veg tanned leather will result in the leather becoming stiffer. It will also happen if the leather is wetted such as in preparing a bag to be turned. The leather needs to be returned to it's pliable state with neats foot oil or some other leather dressing.
When you make your vinegaroon you need to use enough iron to totally neutralize the acid in the vinegar. It takes a while to make it and even after a long period of time it may not be "done" if enough iron has not been added to the venegar to complete the reaction. When all the metal has been devoured it may not be ready. The way to be sure is to add more metal and also check it occasionaly to see if there is pressure in the container. Use the plastic container that you bought the vinegar in and cap it after adding the metal. Everything you read on the interweb will tell you not to close it tight but if you close it tight and check it about once a week by loosening the cap you will know when it is ready. If you open it and there is an escape of gas from the container, it is not done making itself. If there is no escaping gas it may be done but if the metal is all gone you may need to add more metal and check for gas in another week.
If you are in a hurry, Fiebings UMC Black will give you a fine black color.
I found out by experience about what I explained above. I used a quart bottle of white vinegar to make a batch by putting some 0000 steel wool in the bottle. When all the steel wool was eaten I tried it on a test piece of leather. Got a gray blue color.
I poured some shavings from a brake rotor drum turning machine into it and left it for a couple more weeks. Checking it during that time there was a pressure build up so I knew it was working. At the end of just over two weeks it stopped building pressure and there was still metal residue in the bottom of the bottle.
At that point I used it to dye the bag below. The bag os not braggin work, just plain a bag to serve in everyday use.
(https://i.ibb.co/vmNhfkK/20190403-105151.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rMB3qH1)
-
I did the experiment to see how apple cider and regular distilled vinegar stained maple. I never meant for the thread to morph into a debate on using it on leather.
-
https://image.ibb.co/e8yBdb/image.jpg
I used cider vinegar on this. I don't think the type of vinegar makes any difference but the type of iron will,this also has a coat of homemade walnut stain to darken up the stripes.
-
I agree with longcruise that vinegaroon, like aqua fortis reagent, should be neutral, not acidic if the reaction was carried out properly until no more iron can dissolve in the acid. Then it doesn't need to be neutralized, because it isn't acidic anymore. It really shouldn't eat leather. I always wash in water, and then oil and wax any leather I've dyed with it and so far not experienced the deterioration some others have. And I have had cheap veg tan from Tandy crack when using Fieblings, and not oiling and finishing well... any dye adds material within the leather that will harden it.
The small pieces of wood I've used it on usually get the right shade of brown I'm looking for, sometimes not...like aqua fortis it's very dependent on the piece of wood. I've used it to darken carved wooden spouts for bullet bags, wooden plugs for powder horns, etc.
-
D. Taylor...I have a question for those who have used vinegaroon to dye leather black...is it colour fast? In other words, if I dyed a sword baldric black, and wore a white shirt under it, would I be in trouble?
Never had trouble like that but I've always used it on veg tan. It's best feature seems to be; no matter how you glop it on, it always level;s into an even coat. I've never had it any darker than charcoal grey, but finish adds darkness.
-
Vinegaroon is color fast, and does not rub off on clothing, once well dried and buff wiped with a cloth. As mentioned, it is not a dye. The black is from a chemical reaction to the tannins in the leather. A heavy dose of strong tea before application will assist the reaction by adding more tannins. Also, be it known, you cannot get results from chrome tanned leather, or alum tanned, because there are no tannins in either. Only bark, oak tanned or what we call vegetan, which is still from a tannin bearing wood will react.