AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: Robby on November 15, 2018, 04:54:12 PM
-
I got my worms all in order and would like to start cleaning up using Tow. I looked on the web and there seems to be quite a variety. What do you fellows use and where do you get it? If you have an excess, I'll buy some.
Robby
-
The easiest and cheapest to find is plumber's hemp for the old fashioned (and best IMHO) pipe thread sealant. It is fine tow. Wet it has cleaned out all the muskets I have owned a treat and dries them well. Washed and carded for reuse it seems eternal. The old boys often bought the reject coarse tow to save money but the fine is cheap and better. Available on line or pop into your local plumber's merchants/DIY shop that does plumbing supplies.
-
Good morning John,
Now, I never thought about plumbing supplies. Never needed tow, as I brought tow great balls of it with me, but certainly something to look in to!
Ta muchly.
R.
-
This stuff?
https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B007LQHQD0/ref=dp_olp_0?ie=UTF8&condition=all
Robby
-
I’m thinking that growing flax could be lucrative.
-
Tow is a by-product of the spinners. Look for the sources where folks are spinning and making their own threads and such. That's the last place I found a pile for cheap. I bought a pile on eBay from an individual some years ago. It's out there. Also that some say hemp tow is better.
Flax you can grow yourself, let it dry, beat it up, separate out the fiber---whoot home grown TOW!!! Hemp might draw attention.
HERE is some flax, which is the "good" part. Tow is the dregs. Check this avenue of resources.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/LINEN-FLAX-Unbleched-Combed-Top-Felting-Spinning-Cellulose-Vegan-Plant-Fiber-4oz/332594491781?hash=item4d702d3185:g:-ZgAAOSwB-1Y8DBQ:rk:2:pf:0 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/LINEN-FLAX-Unbleched-Combed-Top-Felting-Spinning-Cellulose-Vegan-Plant-Fiber-4oz/332594491781?hash=item4d702d3185:g:-ZgAAOSwB-1Y8DBQ:rk:2:pf:0)
-
I’m thinking that growing flax could be lucrative.
I'm going to start. I eat a ton of the seeds, use oil paints, clean with tow. Could make some threads too. Bale it and sell it as well. When I get moved, I'll put some in. Seems quite historically correct to me. ;)
-
I’m thinking that growing flax could be lucrative.
Talk to the Canadian crowd here. Hemp is grown in Canada for cloth and other non-smoking uses. Well, at least to recently.
Bill K.
-
Townsend's sells 4 oz of flax tow for $5.50, compared to the $6.50 in the attached thread. 4 oz isn't much, if you use it regularly. It is washable, of course. I use hemp oakum that I get from the blacksmiths' stash at Fort Vancouver, primarily as tinder for demonstrating flint and steel. It seems to be a bit messy, though, with loose fibers that might be hard to fully clean from a gun barrel. The flax is really tough, and scours the barrel really well. Just try to tear it apart--a patch knife works better. I use it primarily for scrubbing the face of the breech plug.
-
I’m thinking that growing flax could be lucrative.
Talk to the Canadian crowd here. Hemp is grown in Canada for cloth and other non-smoking uses. Well, at least to recently.
Bill K.
Likely next summer will see the smoking hemp growing just about everywhere.
-
I’m thinking that growing flax could be lucrative.
Talk to the Canadian crowd here. Hemp is grown in Canada for cloth and other non-smoking uses. Well, at least to recently.
Bill K.
Likely next summer will see the smoking hemp growing just about everywhere.
Daryl,
Permit me a bit of humor here.
Back when I was looking at historical records on black powder manufacturing I saw where the Spanish were using hemp stem charcoal in sporting powders. Velocities well above the much vaunted C&H powders. The punk from the hemp stems was easy to char and grind below 1 micron in particle size. Now from my work with Elephant, Goex and the Swiss I knew that particular woods give specific smells to the charcoal when used in black powders. So my buddy in Oz got some "smoking hemp" stalks and charred it. When fired in the gun the smoke smelled like burning hemp. So I joked that we could use it in black powder and call ourselves the Cheech and Chong Powder Company. But with all of the police in the gun club I belonged to you would not want to shoot your ML rifle on that range.
The other joke was that you don't blow down the barrel. You inhale through it. Or Bill Clinton does muzzleloading.
Bill K.
-
The non-smoking varieties can now be legally grown in Kentucky as well. Just have to get a license from the state. It’s supposed to be the next big thing...
Greg
-
I’m thinking that growing flax could be lucrative.
Talk to the Canadian crowd here. Hemp is grown in Canada for cloth and other non-smoking uses. Well, at least to recently.
Bill K.
Likely next summer will see the smoking hemp growing just about everywhere.
Daryl,
Permit me a bit of humor here.
Back when I was looking at historical records on black powder manufacturing I saw where the Spanish were using hemp stem charcoal in sporting powders. Velocities well above the much vaunted C&H powders. The punk from the hemp stems was easy to char and grind below 1 micron in particle size. Now from my work with Elephant, Goex and the Swiss I knew that particular woods give specific smells to the charcoal when used in black powders. So my buddy in Oz got some "smoking hemp" stalks and charred it. When fired in the gun the smoke smelled like burning hemp. So I joked that we could use it in black powder and call ourselves the Cheech and Chong Powder Company. But with all of the police in the gun club I belonged to you would not want to shoot your ML rifle on that range.
The other joke was that you don't blow down the barrel. You inhale through it. Or Bill Clinton does muzzleloading.
Bill K.
LOL - were the velocities actually higher - really? or just the guys measuring the velocities?
-
I got mine from these folks.
http://www.paradisefibers.com/spinning/wool-roving/flax-and-hemp.html?gclid=CKfGkeXtsMMCFRAzaQodgn4AdQ
-
Daryl,
The actual measured velocities with the Spanish hemp stem charcoal were about 100 fps faster than the C&H powder they tested. That was seen in the papers of Nobel & Abel out of England in the 1860s.
When I read the books on the Spanish Armada and the English ships going in under the guns of the Spanish ships I think the English sailors wanted a cheap high. A ration of grog and a wiff of Spanish gun smoke. Spanish cannon smoke dropping down onto the water.
Bill K.
-
Robby,
If you ever get to Ft Frederick, MD in the Spring, there was a lady selling tow this year for a great price. I think it was $5 a hunk and two hunks would fill a shoe box. It was coarse stuff with bits of the stalk.
-
Not sure how we got here, but flax has been a cash crop in the Northern Midwest for years and years.
The oil, the seeds, the fibers are all useable. Linen, Kleenex, paper are all made from the straw.
-
When I read the books on the Spanish Armada and the English ships going in under the guns of the Spanish ships I think the English sailors wanted a cheap high. A ration of grog and a wiff of Spanish gun smoke. Spanish cannon smoke dropping down onto the water.
Bill K.
Bill. Good to see you here. The English only managed to keep on firing as they captured a Spanish powder transport early in the campaign so they were also firing Spanish powder otherwise they would have run out.
Any idea why the practice of using hemp stalks died out? Hemp was, and is, widely available across Europe. The Spanish then were using pit fired charcoal I presume so maybe it was not suited to cylinder firing? In India other lightweight stems were found good too.
John
-
Good morning John,
Now, I never thought about plumbing supplies. Never needed tow, as I brought tow great balls of it with me, but certainly something to look in to!
Ta muchly.
R.
De rien Richard
-
Just do a search of e-bay for Flax Tow. I just bought some 4 months ago from there for $16.50 a pound. If I can find the link I will post it.
-
The non-smoking varieties can now be legally grown in Kentucky as well. Just have to get a license from the state. It’s supposed to be the next big thing...
Greg
As in TN, but there are regs and you will have un-smart local types who will try to rip some for smoking (and commerce no doubt). I've also heard rumor than one PD chops some hemp and poses with it every year for "big raid" PR purposes. Nobody ever gets charged. The confusion and idiocy will continue for quite a while.
Just the flax here ma'am.
-
Log cabin sport shop in Lodi Ohio is a good source. Liza sells a lunch bag full of tow for $6.00, and its enough to last almost a lifetime.............https://www.logcabinshop.com/..............I don't see it listed on their website, so you will have to call.
-
Also try, Silver Shuttle/Susan Wallace of Memphis, TN: Silver Shuttle | Memphis | Tennessee | Sewings
https://www.sewings.us/company-silver-shuttle-in-memphis-tn-32602
Susan Wallace the Owner of Silver Shuttle, the Yarn-Retail in 2547 Madison Ave, the Memphis, the Tennessee 38112.
-
Thank all of you, really good info here!!!!
Robby
-
What’s the benefit of using tow instead of running a few patches down the barrel?
-
What’s the benefit of using tow instead of running a few patches down the barrel?
It’s what they did in the 1700s.
-
Afgan, (1)Whenever possible I like to do things the way they were done. (2)My wife saves worn out flannel bed sheets for me and I cut them up for cleaning patches, but all that scissor work raises cain with the arthritis in my hands anymore. (3) Its reusable and that lends itself to my frugal nature. (4) I have some really cool worms. ;D
Robby
-
This is just an observation about how they did it in the old days.
Of the hundreds of rifles that are in collections, I have seen no rifles from the days of flint that have a bore that is unrusted. I have to assume there must be some, but I've never seen any. If tow was used to clean them, I want no part of it. And I am unwilling to sacrifice a rifle to discover than I cannot get it clean enough to prevent iron worms from consuming my precious rifle. I doubt that cotton flannelette was available then, but it is now, and works perfectly.
Bill Hey (God bless his soul) sent me a box full of tow, and I bought two worms from (I think) Jim Webb, but they are only to add to my collection of HC stuff. A brass jag reduced to carry two flannelette patches, a stiff steel rod, and a bucket of tepid water is my regime.
-
Given that you use a bucket of tepid water I assume that on your rifles with pinned barrels you remove the pins and flush the barrel in the bucket just like a hooked breech. Which is fine with my rifles except my SMR with a lollypop tang. I took it out and it is so awkward to deal with that I dropped it and bent the tang. All came out ok but the sick feeling I had when it bent stopped me from unpinning that one.
Dave
-
You may be right Taylor, but even so it will cut my flannel usage by ten if I only use them to dry things out. I am very particular about keeping my barrels clean and dry. If it doesn't work out, so be it.
Robin
-
I guess if you can get your bore clean using TOW I would say go for it but I have bought the left over bolts of cotton flannel for years and if it cost me more, I dont care because it works for me. I suppose I can afford the extra expense as I dont spend anything on all those gee wizz cleaners sold and only use plain old water to good effect for around 50 years now.
-
I see no reason why cleaning with tow should leave a bore more prone to pitting than cleaning with a jag and patches. Old guns from the jag cleaning era have bad bores too. We don’t leave fired guns loaded. This was common practice on farms and frontiers. Fire the gun, reload, leave it loaded till next time it’s shot. We know this because we find old guns fouled and still loaded from time to time. Due to circumstances quite different from our modern ones, guns might be cleaned with muddy water or not at all, and seldom by removing the barrel and pumping water through it. Dry patches or even dry tow might often have been hard to come by. I’m guessing a couple weeks of soggy spring thaw and rain slagging through mud, struggling to make miles and cook food after dark and find a dry enough place to sleep might leave rifles getting less effective cleaning around a sputtering campfire than in my dry basement.
-
Taylor,
I do not think it was tow causing trouble in the bore, it is Very much more likely to be the interim years, between use and arriving in our hands.
The guns Keith Neal wrote of in the Packington story, were completely rust free both inside and out in most cases.
These guns are of the vintage of which we speak here.
The no -rust outside was due to being kept "anointed' with deer tallow; An excellent preservative.
So yes, I am sure the rust we see is the years of neglect and even living in the barn or loft/attic, than caused by faulty cleaning practices.
I have no antique rifles that show no rust in the bore, until we get to the 1850's that is, not earlier, but smoothbores yes, mirror bright and not cleaned up later, and these would be cleaned in the same manner, with tow. Tow I still use .
Robby,
If you start one of your sheets with a sharp knife, it should tear down full length at that width of your patch, then only the cross cuts to bother you.
-
What’s the benefit of using tow instead of running a few patches down the barrel?
Here's why I prefer tow to patches (benefits that appeal to me):
No patches to buy or cut. Once you buy a hank of tow, you've got a lifetime supply-wash the dirty, save the oily, reuse both.
One hook/worm good for many calibers.
I get a clean breech face without any scraper, only tow and water.
Confounds those who only "dabble in" front-stuffing. :P
-
Because of the open fiber structure and the toughness of tow, you will not only wipe out the fouling but you will be scrubbing the bore. Not only does two clean better than a patch, all you need to do is rinse out the used tow, spread it out to dry and it can be reused many times. I keep a tow and toggle (a wad of tow tied onto a linen thread) to wipe the bore between shots. The open nature of the tow fibers allow the tow wad to slide over the fouling and bunch up to pull a lot of fouling out. Then pour some water over the tow to rinse it out and you are ready for the next time.
-
Strong Bear: I have only one SMR - a Kibler - and I do not remove that barrel to clean. But all my other rifles and guns I do. The next time I attend our BC Rendezvous which will be the end of August 2019, I will use tow to clean my Kibler rifle. I am willing to learn old things.
My Joseph Lang rifle dates from the middle of the 19th C and has a mirror rifled bore; a rifle that was obviously cherished and cared for. I agree with posters about when the rust occurred on rifles and guns from the flint era and even later. Most parts of this continent are not forgiving when it comes to oxidation of iron, particularly the east - the birthplace of the longrifle. I see pictures of rifles in collections that are thick with dry red rust in the lock area and in the bore, and I shudder to think of the neglect.
-
After trekking and camping sleeping on the ground with my gun for several days and shooting my flintlock every day, I am amazed the original guns are not in terrible shape. I have tried many techniques, cleaning methods, and greases and oils-with some, but not complete success. They must have known something I don't.
-
Tow has been used for a Long time for cleaning, as well as for wadding. (Yep, we all know this!)
Here's a couple of photos of old German bags/flask hangers from the 1580's or so.
The small bag top still contains tow, cut into about 2" lengths for wadding a ball. (Photos from Michael Tromner originally)
The metal loops below are for the flask.
(https://preview.ibb.co/cQdgZq/Flaschenhangsel-s-chs-1580er-Jahre-u-1600-1-kl.jpg) (https://ibb.co/igzASA)
(https://image.ibb.co/jeQmZq/Flaschenhangsel-s-chs-1580er-Jahre-u-1600-Id-kl.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gxNYEq)
(https://image.ibb.co/fBXYEq/Flaschenhangsel-s-chs-1580er-Jahre-u-1600-Ie-kl.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hVRtEq)
It is also interesting to see the ball cartridges in the patron at the top of this set. The sprue has been left attached, and the paper cartridge tied to it! (This could account for many old balls found, with sprue still attached.)
I questioned Michael about the tow, thinking for sure it was for cleaning, but he told me it was cut short, so most likely for wadding as he suggested.
-
Interesting cartridges Richard. With the paper choked onto the sprue. Piobert (of Piobert's Law fame) noted that the French made a trial of casting a nail in the musket ball as below:
(https://preview.ibb.co/jnwacA/tb.jpg) (https://ibb.co/euiz4q)
I am guessing that the length was the length of the paper cartridge. How it was loaded I don't know but maybe it was choked on the nail?
John
-
John,
If we get into this, we might just re-invent the wheel!
Maurice mentioned this, (Ball with a tail) and I thought he'd maybe had too much heat in India...
If these balls Have the long tail, it would appear that they predate the French trials by centuries.
I wonder john, if the attached paper Stays attached in this case? If so, that would also prevent rotation.
More stuff to try!
-
Yes - got me thinking about Rendezvous smoothbore events - or just have better range than a normal 20 bore smoothbore.
4 times the accuracy or the common musket - we've already done THAT with patched balls.
-
I use this from Dixie. I tried other places and it didn't work as good as Dixie's. Like everything else at Dixie's. It isn't cheap. Read the reviews.
https://www.dixiegunworks.com/index/page/product/product_id/4210/category/593/category_chain/578,346,593/product_name/PA4500+Flax+%22Tow%22
-
Pete,
That stuff in your link looks like something an owl coughed up!
Hmmm, That makes me wonder...
Daryl,
At Bazel in Switzerland, a competition in 1605 has the smoothbore shooters competing at 570 feet, (190 yards), offhand , no shoulder stock allowed, target being 30" in diameter;
Are you up for it? ;)
-
I suppose that long spru we find on a ball cast in one of Jeff Tanner's molds would be too short to wrap a paper tail onto when making paper cartridges.
-
Seeing how few of us submitted targets for smoothbore at 25 yards, I doubt you'll generate any excitement with a target that is practically impossible. There are a couple of targets on the smoothbore trail at BC Rendezvous that are 'out there' but they are not as big as the Swiss example. One is an oxygen cylinder at about 150 yards.
-
Pete,
That stuff in your link looks like something an owl coughed up!
Hmmm, That makes me wonder...
Daryl,
At Bazel in Switzerland, a competition in 1605 has the smoothbore shooters competing at 570 feet, (190 yards), offhand , no shoulder stock allowed, target being 30" in diameter;
Are you up for it? ;)
I'll have to find an owl and compare.
-
I think the trick is to find an owl small enough to go down a very large bore and train it to carry the ball to the target and peck a hole and pop the ball through it....... Now where is my medication?
-
I see no reason why cleaning with tow should leave a bore more prone to pitting than cleaning with a jag and patches.
Same here ... any rust wasn’t due to the use of tow, but rather a combination of the age and oil used - if any.
-
They either didn't care in the old days or didn't know better. I'm not sure if the bores rusted while they used them or over the decades of non-use they rusted up until we got to see them. I'm thinking the latter.
-
After freshing 2 barrels from the mid 1800s I am sure these barrels got in the shape they were in from decades of use plus neglect. The areas above the breechplug are eroded at least 0.030”. There is no rifling remaining in the powder chamber and this is why barrels were often set back during use. Remember that the Lewis and Clark expedition freshed their barrels during their 3 year trip.
We don’t know how they cleaned their barrels or whether they kept the guns loaded after firing and reloading, but it wouldn’t surprise me.
-
I agree compared to today they didn't care for the guns as we do. However, if the last time the gun was cleaned or used it wasn't oiled and sat for 100 years. It wouldn't look good.
I'm not even sure if it was oiled that it would protect for a century. I'm not sure. Just guessing.
-
John,
You could make a lot if you trained owls!
The balls in the above photo I found have short 'normal sprues. Not long tails.
I also found in a later thread of Michael's, that he later thought that the short -cut tow must be for cleaning the pan, as the balls were made into cartridges, so no need of wadding.
It is sad I can't ask him further questions, like were extra balls carried in another pouch? as if they Were, tow could be resorted to when the cartridges were expended.
-
What’s the benefit of using tow instead of running a few patches down the barrel?
Probably easier to wind up in the worm. Much easier to wrap around a ramrod end that is grooved similar to a jag. It can be washed and reused and then there is the historical aspect.
-
What’s the benefit of using tow instead of running a few patches down the barrel?
A lot of folks try to keep everything period correct... For personal satisfaction or if they're reenactors.
It's also pretty tough stuff that can be washed and reused.
Mike