AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: OldMtnMan on November 30, 2018, 05:47:49 PM
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This is a short one question quiz.
Using the same rifle and PRB.
Two loads. 90gr of Goex 2F vs 80gr of Goex 3F.
Which load has more felt recoil?
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Pete,
Are you trying to trick us?
I'd have said the 3F load will kick more, as it sets of faster.
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Sorry for not playing proper but I don't know, won't guess.
B'cuz one of them will perform better than the other one in the same rifle (all things are never equal) and is the one I'd prefer. Any recoil differences would be negligible anyway (to us insensitive (to recoil :P) types). But that if indeed they performed exactly the same on paper I'd likely go with the less powder consumption, or something.
Also, for the sensitive types, one can always reduce felt recoil by adding weight to the gun (and enhance balance if carefully done). Or just starting with a heavier bbl, or same bbl dimensions but smaller bore.
Disregard as needed. ;)
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Load your gun up and find out.
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Not a trick question and i'm not asking for myself.
Keep in mind that 3F will have more power if the loads were equal. 3F will have more recoil for the same reason.
However, I evened out the loads by using less powder with the 3F load. However, the 2F load is heavier and will have more recoil. Powder load has to add in with ball weight to figure out the whole weight of the load.
So, the question is which will kick more? The heavier load or the more energetic powder even though less of it is used?
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Load your gun up and find out.
I know the answer. It's a quiz.
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Less a quiz (there's no right answer) than a survey of opinion. But my opinion, based on my limited experience, is that the two loads are more or less the same from an external ballistics standpoint. To me, the 3F load seems to be snappier, but I have never consciously equated that to more or sharper recoil one way or the other.
Elsewhere there's a trapshooting website and it seems every month or two someone asks about porting reducing real/felt recoil. It's a guaranteed, highly opinionated cat fight. My takeaway is that some people have the feel, some don't, simple as that. Absent a laboratory or even a side by side test of otherwise identical guns, I doubt most people are truly qualified to comment.
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There is a way to figure it out without just using feel.
Examples
https://www.chuckhawks.com/recoil_table.htm
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Interesting but if the load goes bang I hit what I shoot at plus my shoulder is still attached to my body I'm fine with either !!
Long time ago I shot a 600 nitro express. Anything smaller than that. Don't mean squat to me. Just saying..... Oldtravler
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The load with 90 grains of 2f will kick more than 80 grains of 3f regardless of velocity achieved. The rifle design is the major factor in felt recoil and can be deceptive.
To start with, 90 grains of 2f is a heavier charge of black powder. When black powder ignites and burns it produces approx. 40% gaseous and 60% solids seen as white smoke. After ignition the weight of the gas and solids are added to the patch and ball weight and this total is ejected from the muzzle ensuring more recoil.
Simple Physics.
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The load with 90 grains of 2f will kick more than 80 grains of 3f regardless of velocity achieved. The rifle design is the major factor in felt recoil and can be deceptive.
To start with, 90 grains of 2f is a heavier charge of black powder. When black powder ignites and burns it produces approx. 40% gaseous and 60% solids seen as white smoke. After ignition the weight of the gas and solids are added to the patch and ball weight and this total is ejected from the muzzle ensuring more recoil.
Simple Physics.
You're the winner. (there's no prize :)) Most would pick the smaller load of 3F.
For those who are recoil sensitive. This should help you to develop a load.
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Well.....just to mix it up a little, I have a 50-Cal T\C Hawken with a GM barrel, and my newest Leman 54-Cal with a GM barrel. My loads for both are as follows:
50-Cal Hawken, 33"long 15/16"...100gr FF under a 240gr. Hornady Pa. Conical
54-Cal Leman 36"long 15/16" ...85gr FFF under a PRB.
The Leman has more felt recoil than the Hawken.
PHYSICS THAT!!! ;D
I believe it's likely the Leman weighs less because of the same 15/16" octagon barrel.....but a bigger bore..so less weight.
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Things change when you use two different guns.
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The load with 90 grains of 2f will kick more than 80 grains of 3f regardless of velocity achieved. The rifle design is the major factor in felt recoil and can be deceptive.
To start with, 90 grains of 2f is a heavier charge of black powder. When black powder ignites and burns it produces approx. 40% gaseous and 60% solids seen as white smoke. After ignition the weight of the gas and solids are added to the patch and ball weight and this total is ejected from the muzzle ensuring more recoil.
Simple Physics.
Yup! Gotta always figure on the total ejecta mass.
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Yes.
Robby
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I've used both in several different guns, and 3f always has more felt, shsrper recoil. The total force exerted may be equal or less, but the 3f peaks more quickly. F=ma, so I figure that explains it... Even if the total kinetic energy is higher (1/2(mv^2)) with the 2f, due to the greater mass of ejecta at equal velocity, a higher force is exerted over a shorter period with the 3f. Just my offhand thoughts on the matter...
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OK. I'll play.
Since you asked about felt recoil I will say 3f. With the reduced load of 3f the velocities should be really close. But the faster burn of the 3f will do most of the acceleration at the start with a quicker taper as the ball moved downbore. Whereas 2f will get the ball to the same velocity only with a more even acceleration. My Chevy Spark will get up to 70 mph before merging, but I don't feel myself being pushed against the seat as I would if I were merging in a Corvette.
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BJJ,
That's a good example of what I was trying to say!
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It would be interesting if we could measure it accurately.
Just to see if what we feel is reality.
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I'm kinda like a stump where recoil is concerned. I simply don't notice it until later when I find bruises on my shoulder. Maybe it's all in my head. :o
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hmmmm I'll play
1. since 3f is smaller grained than 2f then the same volume of 3f powder would theoretically weigh more than the same volume of 2f because 2f would have more air voids in it. (maybe?)
so I think either way, 3f will have more felt recoil-- due to it being faster burning and heavier.
K
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assuming the same gun, same patch and lube, same weight ball. it also depends on how accurately the charges are measured, the brand and lot of powders, how the loads are compacted and if compressed. given the same of all of this just described criteria, 3f almost always has a sharper felt recoil over a somewhat Greater 2f load, to me, maybe not you. this is real world human perception versus quantified real world data. i use 3f in all guns from .32 to .62, including the pan.
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I'm changing the rules. In my .69, a 2F 90gr. load has more felt recoil than 90 (yes 90gr.) 3F as the velocity is slightly higher with 2F.
With the 3F charge, the recoil is over more quickly, slight 'sharper - faster/over' than the 2f load. The 2 F load moves the gun, thus the body more, thus more felt recoil. imho
In a little .54, I suspect the 90gr. 2F and 80gr. 3F load would produce about the same recoil as ballistics would be about identical. All quite light loads that
really don't kick very much.
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That light load does a pass through on elk and knocks muleys off their feet.
Why would I need a heavier load? It's easy on patches, the gun, and my old bones. Plus, I get more loads per pound of powder. I can't come up with any negatives.
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I am disappointed. The link only shows KE and velocity numbers for various smokeless charges.
The KE is not the same as felt recoil. From my experience recoil only matters when it becomes uncomfortable. The th ings that make it uncomfortable is when you feel pain, such as in a cheek slapper, or a sore shoulder. I have never felt a sore shoulder from shooting BP in spite of being a "horn tipper". 120 grains of 2f in my .54 is not unusual. However I will feel soreness from an afternoon of light trap loads in my 12 ga. smokeless gun. The BP "pushes" more, but the smokeless "hits".
It isn't the KE, or the velocity that does damage, it is the acceleration, or deceleration that is bad. Just like jumping from a height. It isn't the fall, it is the sudden splat. You can jump from identical heights thus generating the same KE, velocity, and momentum; but the difference in deceleration when you hit concrete or a swimming pool of water makes all the difference.
So it is with absorbing recoil. Two loads that generate the same velocity can feel different if one accelerates more abruptly. By the time the bullet leaves the muzzle, the KE will be the same.
Now there is bound to be some overlap. The 10 extra grains of 2f will figure into the recoil, and whether that is enough to make the gun feel more uncomfortable or not I can't say, I can only guess. Which is why I played the game. I was thinking someone had a more definitive way to establish the answer.
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Recoil is never a concern when I make up a hunting load. My goal is to get a pass through on the game i'm hunting. This takes some experimenting shooting game. I have found that too much powder with a soft round ball will expand too fast and not penetrate as well as a lighter load. I want to hit the game as hard as I can while having the ball pass through.
Length of barrel, caplock or flint and brand of powder all come into developing the load. Using more powder than I need makes no sense to me.
One thing I do need discipline in is the distance. I have a window I need to stay in. Too far or even too close and the ball will act differently. I almost always set my max distance at 60-70yds. Never under 35yds. As a still hunter I can set the shot the way I want it. Being at the right distance, playing the wind, and not being seen is part of the challenge of still hunting. I love it.
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This is just speculation on my part but I'm seldom far off the mark with my speculations.
I believe it was Sir Isacc Newton (just a guess) who devised an experiment to find MV and recoil by hanging a firearm horizontally so it was free swinging. Then the gun was fired and the movement was measured.
So taking a rifle and hanging it like that, fired with both 2fg and 3fg loads of similar volume, I think the 2fg load will cause the rifle to swing further. Because either it's generating more actual recoil, or because as has been noted it has a slower, harder push.
I have shot a lot of both through the years and I've been punished more by 2fg. I agree the 3fg has a sharper push but it's over quickly with no follow through.
And another point I think many are overlooking concerning felt recoil is that some rifles just kick more than others regardless of granulation.
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That light load does a pass through on elk and knocks muleys off their feet.
Why would I need a heavier load? It's easy on patches, the gun, and my old bones. Plus, I get more loads per pound of powder. I can't come up with any negatives.
I see and acknowledge your point, Pete.
At this time, for me, they are light and not what my guns like.
I kinda still like to use 140 to 165gr. 2f in my .69. Those loads are more accurate at the outer ranges I am likely to have to shoot up here
due to the logging slashes and across pond shots oft made. At times, ranges are within 50yards, but one must be prepared for the longer
shots sometimes required. That is why my rifle has 3 rear sights and I carry a laser range finder - as well as practicing at those longer ranges.
Many of us have different requirements and must adapt to the circumstances & hunting situations presented to us.
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A .69 is a big ball and needs a lot of powder. What do you use in your .54?
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I have a .50, although I haven't worked up a hunting load for it - yet with grease or oiled patch.
I have worked up loads for other guy's .54's- back in the 70's and 1 in the 80's. Those are used
in the same areas I hunt & 120gr. 2f worked just fine with a 10oz. denim patch and .535" ball.
In the 70's I did not know about Track's mink oil or neetsfoot oil, so we had a definite problem with
an oil for cold weather hunting. I tried baby oil and vegetable cooling oils with less than stellar success.
By the 80's, I was using the totw Mink Oil with success. I see the local Princess Auto has mink oil. It smells as
if it might have petroleum in it, but that is not on the ingredients list, so I may try it.
The greater powder charges give much flatter trajectories - pbr of out to 125 yards (if sighted correctly), where centre hold is taken.
The .58's I played with having 48" twists (English Enfields) shot best with 85gr. 2F and .575" balls. The 72" Zouave I had, liked 140gr. as-did
my 66" twist Bill Large bl. on my first 'real' Hawken replica.
(https://i.ibb.co/RH6k8pG/Mixed021907-6-Corr-zps8551e52b-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4NSnkZw)
Not much recoil compared to the .69.
(https://i.ibb.co/5hL9tSc/cid-60-C1-E34-C-7-AC8-4-D74-9-E25-C4-D1204-C0-E3-Alocal-zpse9583bea.jpg) (https://ibb.co/N2K3QJY)
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Those are some stout loads. I guess I use lighter loads because my vision won't let me shoot very far and I love hunting the dark timber that doesn't me take long shots either.
I use just enough powder to get the job done. Of course being an old @$#% comes into it too.