AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: Ky-Flinter on December 02, 2018, 06:01:28 PM
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https://historical.ha.com/itm/long-guns/hawken-marked-full-stock-kentucky-conversion-percussion-rifle/a/6194-40039.s?ic4=GalleryView-ShortDescription-071515
The piece in the above link will be in the Dec. 9 auction of items from the J.M. Davis gun museum in Claremore, OK. Details on the auction are here: http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=51901.0
Which one of the Hawken family do you suppose made this gun?
-Ron
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Hi Ron,
Sam and Jake's father?
dave
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Hi Ron,
Sam and Jake's father?
dave
The missing link?? I noticed flat barrel retainers.How is it matked? Does it have initials
before the Hawken name.Whoever made this gun was obviously an experienced maker
and further research is a must.
Bob Roller
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Perhaps Christian at Hagerstown MD. The boys father..... or made by him and altered later to percussion by someone else.
Just a thought
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Perhaps Christian at Hagerstown MD. The boys father..... or made by him and altered later to percussion by someone else.
Just a thought
If I remember correctly he signed his Christian Hawken.
Dennis
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Somewhat unusual to have a stamped signature on a rifle of that timeframe?
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Rich:
You are right .... but I wonder where the St. Louis boys got their stamp from........
Just a thought
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Sam & Jake had another brother "William" who was also a gunsmith. My guess is that this rifle was made by William.
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A Hawken stamp always attracts a lot of interest. As far as where J&S got their stamp, I assume anywhere stamps were made. Stamps seem to have become commonly used by many makers all over by 1825 or so. So it seems likely stamps could be ordered. They certainly can be now, and in the 1980s and onward a good many contemporary rifles have been stamped with a facsimile of the original Hawken stamps.
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I'm pretty sure it was made by Sam and Jake's brother "William" in Maryland . He signed his name several ways . It also has his classic bobbed triggers and several features done by William .
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This rifle does have some similarities to Willliam Hawkens work. Mine was stamped W HAWKEN
With no more than these pictures to go on, it could have been made by Sam while in Ohio.
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In Arms Makers of Maryland by Daniel D. Hartzler and published by George Shumway, is a detailed family tree of "Hawken Family of Gunsmiths". The family tree was compiled by George Shumway and Glen R. Scott & Juanita M. Scott. Juanita Scott is descended from John Hawken of Hagerstown, a son of Christian Hawken, Sr. At the time the book was published, the researchers had found fifteen members of the Hawken family that were gunsmiths.
As others have mentioned, Jacob and Samuel had a brother named William that was a gunsmith. He took over his father's gunshop in Hagerstown when the father died. Several rifles are known with "W. HAWKEN" marked on the barrel and are thought to have been made by William Hawken of Hagerstown.
There was another branch of the Hawken family that was in Springfield, Ohio. These likely were descendants of Nicholas Hawken, brother of Christian, Sr. A Henry Hawken died in Springfield, Ohio on April 15, 1835. He appears to have moved to Ohio around 1815 from Westmoreland County, PA. His connection to the Hagerstown Hawken family is not well documented, but family tradition has Hagerstown as their place of origin. Henry Hawken was a gunsmith and may have been a son of Nicholas Hawken. Henry Hawken had at least two sons that were gunsmiths, John Hawken and Daniel Turney Hawken. Several rifles are known with "D. T. HAWKEN" marked on the barrel and a few with "H. HAWKEN" and "J. HAWKEN". Jim Gordon has one of each in his collection and published pictures of them in his book Great Gunmakers for the Early West.
Gordon also has in his collection several rifles marked "W. HAWKEN", one marked "C. HAWKEN", one marked "C. & J. HAWKEN" and one marked "S. HAWKEN". All these rifles are of the Hagerstown school in architecture and mounts and thought to be the products of Christian, Sr., and sons Jacob, Samuel, and William. Below is a picture of these rifles.
(https://image.ibb.co/epBoVJ/IMG-2235.jpg)
The top three are marked "W. HAWKEN". The fourth one down is marked "C. & J. HAWKEN". The fifth one down is marked "S. HAWKEN". It should be noted that the "W. HAWKEN" marks are stamped in block letters. The "C. & J. HAWKEN" and "S. HAWKEN" are engraved in script.
The subject rifle is very similar to these five rifles.
Interestingly, the patch box on the subject rifle is most like the ones on the "C. & J. HAWKEN" and "S. HAWKEN" rifles shown below.
(https://i.ibb.co/tbxNwP2/IMG-2235-crop.jpg)
The engraved eagle inlay on the cheekpiece of the subject rifle is very similar to one on the "C. & J. HAWKEN" marked rifle.
The auction site doesn't show a photo of the "HAWKEN" name on the barrel of the gun, and the description doesn't say whether the name is engraved in script or stamped in block letters. That information might help in attributing the rifle to one of the brothers.
With the meager info on the auction site, I might lean towards either Jacob or Samuel as maker of subject rifle, but William is still a possibility.
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Stamps seem to have become commonly used by many makers all over by 1825 or so. So it seems likely stamps could be ordered.
My point exactly......
It would seem now, in this thread, we have a much greater depth of info then we started with.
Thanks to all that have contributed to this point.
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William marked his rifles in both script and individual block letters . I have examined rifles of both types . However all of them that I've examined have the same style triggers .