AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Contemporary Longrifle Collecting => Topic started by: Smokey Plainsman on December 22, 2018, 03:39:50 PM
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Guys I recently submitted an order to TVM for one of their Tennessee style flintlock rifles. Well some of the guys on another forum are pretty much saying TVMs aren’t very good and that I should have gotten a Tip Curtis gun or something else.
Guys is this so? I don’t need a rifle 100% historically correct, I do not reenact, just shoot and hunt. I ordered a plain poor boy iron mounted gun with fancy maple, .40 caliber A frame swamped 42” Rice round bottom bbl, and Chamber’s Late Ketland lock. Also will have a grease hole in the stock, devoid of side plate, entry thimble, nose cap, just a really plain gun but with (hopefully) pretty wood, a good bbl, and a good lock.
But those guys have me worried I should have made a different choice. :'(
Guys please let me know either way... I’m just worried!!
-Smokey
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I am not familiar with TVM but the parts you mention are first class. As long as workmanship is good and the guns is reliable I would not worry what others say. Everyone has an opinion :)
Dennis
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You need to stop listening to everyone else and judge for yourself. IMHO TVM makes a fine rifle for the money. You may find a used custom/semi custom for the money but you are getting new quality parts well assembled. Enjoy your new rifle.
Mark
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You need to stop listening to everyone else and judge for yourself. IMHO TVM makes a fine rifle for the money. You may find a used custom/semi custom for the money but you are getting new quality parts well assembled. Enjoy your new rifle.
Mark
Thank you, it’s just that I’m really new and don’t know. :(
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The Rice barrel and the Chambers Late Ketland lock would make a good gun even
if the stock was Sycamore.The rifle you described is one of my favorites and the other
extreme is a Rigby or Henry 1000,yard match rifle.
Bob Roller
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Smokey I USED to have a TVM rifle. It was a tack driving shooter. Unfortunately I sold it at a time when I needed money more than the gun.
Absolutely wished I would not of sold it.!! Oldtravler
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I have been to the Davy Crockett Days get together a bunch of times and seen many more TVM rifles than all the others put together, the guys really like them. I would call them a somewhat generic rifle, well put together that will serve your purpose especially well considering your choice of grreat parts.
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TVM. Very Generic. They don't pay attention to nuances inside of various schools. Drop is adjusted right where the triggers are, you want more drop it gets bent more right there. The web between the ram rod pipe and the barrel is way too thick. The barrel is buried too far into the wood as is the ram rod. The wood is way too soft and there is too much left on it. I can point out a TVM rifle from across the room, they have no soul. One positive I have noticed is their inletting always seems to be good.
All that being said, everyone who owns one says they shoot well. All the knocks I gave them are cost savings issues. If you want to avoid all of those issues you're going to have to pay more. So, as it always seems to be, you get what you pay for. I'm quite surprised you found a website that poo-poo's TVM, most folks , other than experienced gunmakers love the blasted things.
All of this is of course only MY opinion, other's opinions may well be quite different.
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So now there's only one "TVM"?
Every time someone starts talking about "TVM" this or that, I'm always left guessing if they're talking about Jack Garner's company or Matt Avance's company. Both in the same village as I recall, they both get referred to as "TVM" and produce similar products/packages IIRC.
I looked at that stuff pretty hard a few year back, but never did business with (either of) them. I do quite trust Mike Brooks assessment (sounds like others I've heard). But that doesn't mean you won't get a great, fun, shootin' iron for your money. Good luck with it.
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TVM. Very Generic. They don't pay attention to nuances inside of various schools. Drop is adjusted right where the triggers are, you want more drop it gets bent more right there. The web between the ram rod pipe and the barrel is way too thick. The barrel is buried too far into the wood as is the ram rod. The wood is way too soft and there is too much left on it. I can point out a TVM rifle from across the room, they have no soul. One positive I have noticed is their inletting always seems to be good.
All that being said, everyone who owns one says they shoot well. All the knocks I gave them are cost savings issues. If you want to avoid all of those issues you're going to have to pay more. So, as it always seems to be, you get what you pay for. I'm quite surprised you found a website that poo-poo's TVM, most folks , other than experienced gunmakers love the blasted things.
All of this is of course only MY opinion, other's opinions may well be quite different.
Just what I afeared. :(
Well, I only have $200 in on the deposit right now. I’m strongly thinking about cutting my loses going with someone that can make a better rifle. I had no idea how bad TVMs are thought of until I did some digging. I can’t go through with it I don’t think...
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I chimed in earlier and stand by what was said. They are generic but they don't cost several thousand dollars. I have found them to be good quality accurate rifles for the money. Further, wether it's Matt Avance or Jack Brooks, you're not going to find better people to deal with.
Mark
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So are you talking about TVM- Nachez or Corinth MS?
They are no the same.
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I just viewed what was listed as an original french style, colonial restocked fowler that had more web between the ramrod and the barrel than Matt Avance guns sport. Not all originals were thin and sleek. Its true that one of the identifying traits of a TVM gun is more wood, web and side panel. But this can also be seen in some original american guns. I am sure its a cost shaving feature. Its not any more or less shootable. Maybe not as attractive as a thin sleek, more expensive gun. hmmmmm.
I know Matt will customize any of the styles he makes... Does anyone know if he will make a gun for a customer that is thinner and sleeker than what he usually makes? It might cost a few more shillings? Would not hurt to ask if you are concerned. I have never heard anyone say that Matt Avance is not a nice friendly reasonable gent to work with.
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Wade,
I "think" Corinth but not positive. Definitely for sure Matt Avance.
Mark
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TVM. Very Generic. They don't pay attention to nuances inside of various schools. Drop is adjusted right where the triggers are, you want more drop it gets bent more right there. The web between the ram rod pipe and the barrel is way too thick. The barrel is buried too far into the wood as is the ram rod. The wood is way too soft and there is too much left on it. I can point out a TVM rifle from across the room, they have no soul. One positive I have noticed is their inletting always seems to be good.
All that being said, everyone who owns one says they shoot well. All the knocks I gave them are cost savings issues. If you want to avoid all of those issues you're going to have to pay more. So, as it always seems to be, you get what you pay for. I'm quite surprised you found a website that poo-poo's TVM, most folks , other than experienced gunmakers love the blasted things.
All of this is of course only MY opinion, other's opinions may well be quite different.
Just what I afeared. :(
Well, I only have $200 in on the deposit right now. I’m strongly thinking about cutting my loses going with someone that can make a better rifle. I had no idea how bad TVMs are thought of until I did some digging. I can’t go through with it I don’t think...
I wouldn't freak out. I have studied and built these guns for a living for 39 years now so small things like that bother me. 99% of people won't even notice these sorts of things. These TVM guns are in no way "subpar", they just aren't what I personally would be looking for in a gun unless it was the price point that was the most important aspect, and again I'll stress, those little details bother me and probably not a lot of other people.. I don't know what they get for their guns, but If you don't go with TVM chances are you're going to end up paying a lot more money for a more correctly styled/built gun. And, lets all remember, no matter who builds a gun these days you're at $1000 in parts before you even start to build it. Nothing about muzzleloading is cheap these days.
In closing, from everything I have heard, they function and shoot well. I don't think I've every heard any complaints from their customers.
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You stated in your first post that you dont need a 100% historicly correct gun. You have picked out some great parts and the most critical response so far said that they did do good inleting. Don't worry about it just shoot it. JMHO enjoy.
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So are you talking about TVM- Nachez or Corinth MS?
They are no the same.
These people:
www.tennesseevalleymuzzleloading.com
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So are you talking about TVM- Nachez or Corinth MS?
They are no the same.
These people:
www.tennesseevalleymuzzleloading.com
Righto, that's Matt Avance in Natchez.
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Hi Smokey,
The TVM rifle will be fine. It should be made well and shoot well. I don't own a TVM but have repaired 4 or 5 of them and refinished 2 of them for other folks. TVM has to cut some corners to keep costs down and therefore they use a generic stock design for many different models swapping out hardware for the different models. In general, they leave more wood on the stocks than you typically find on original guns. If you want to see the differences with respect to their Tennessee and southern mountain rifles and a more historically consistent example simply look at the photos of the TVMs and then look at Jim Kibler's southern mountain rifle kit. You will plainly see the differences. All that really matters IMO are your objectives. For a well made and good shooting gun at a modest cost TVM is a good choice. With the Chambers late Ketland lock, it is certainly a better choice than TOW's southern mountain rifle kit that uses a Siler lock. However, if you want a gun that accurately represents a southern mountain rifle from the 1st quarter of the 19th century, Jim Kibler's kit is a better choice. If you are left handed, the choices really narrow to TVM and a few others.
dave
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TVM guns are built from a plank, the same as most other builders. As such the differences between each of his guns is noticeable, even between examples of the same models, on examination. I already had a couple of muzzleloaders when I decided to get a TVM. After dealing with them, I was so impressed with these good people, that I got a couple more over the next few years.
Matt prefers the customer to stay in frequent touch and be as specific a possible. He also offers friendly and superior after purchase service. His guns are rather generic and not bench copies of existing guns; but that often is the case with most custom builders. The guns are accurate, reliable, fit well and look very fine. Mike Brooks can spot a TVM easily but he has studied and built guns for decades; the average shooter would have to look at the name on the barrel. They are a good as most any custom gun built today; they just reflect Matt's interpretation of a particular gun/style. Sometimes Matt's guns could have been trimmed up some, but not all are like that. Tip and Matt are similar in style and quality in my opinion. The bottom four are my TVM guns, the lock is off the first rifle.
(https://image.ibb.co/cVRQT6/PICT0370.jpg)
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I have not studied many ml guns, but like Mr Brooks I can spot a TVM gun fairly quickly. I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing. I know many of you guys can id other makers by the build architecture, carving and whatnot. French, English, Germanic, American... they all have their identifying features. TVM makes 12 different styles from different eras with very different features... And does a pretty large number each year. I think the biggest challenge for a contemporary ml gun maker like TVM is to hit the various historic styles and not end up throwing in some of their own style points or merging that of other styles into these guns.
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Judging by the style of rifle you ordered, you can't go too far wrong with the good parts and pretty wood. Poorboys can be made in almost any fashion and be right. The complaints come when people start adding options. You will get a good shootable rifle. If you want to have some fun with it, tell people it is a poorboy styled after some fictitious county and see how many even know you are pulling their leg.
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Judging by the style of rifle you ordered, you can't go too far wrong with the good parts and pretty wood. Poorboys can be made in almost any fashion and be right. The complaints come when people start adding options. You will get a good shootable rifle. If you want to have some fun with it, tell people it is a poorboy styled after some fictitious county and see how many even know you are pulling their leg.
Legern family from Foghorn Co VA ;D
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Smokey,
If I were you I would not think of canceling the order. I suspect once you shoot a flint rifle a few times you will either be hooked and looking forward to your next rifle or you will lose interest and not use it a lot going forward (probably the former). So for now just wait for your rifle to be completed. You can't get a better barrel or lock and they are the two most important parts of a flint rifle, shoot it then decide whether you want to invest a lot more money for a sleeker/sexier looking rifle.
Dennis
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Guys thanks to some words of encouragementarion, I think I’m going to keep the TVM order going.
Might not be what some people want but for my needs, the shoe fits.
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I have a 20g American fowler from Matt at TVM for the last 15 or 16 years. I have been very happy with it. Spent a lot of time in woods it has put meat on the table. And for quite a few years I shot it in rifle matches with patched round ball and did well.
Mike
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TVM makes a very nice flintlock. I have eight flintlocks three of which are TVMs. A 50. caliber Lancaster, a 50. caliber early Virginia, and a 32. caliber Southern ( pictured ). Are they 100% historically correct ? No. But they are good looking, reliable, and shoot great. And sold at a affordable price. I have no doubt you will love your TVM poor boy flintlock.
(https://i.ibb.co/xz3K59q/32-Southern-Squirrel-Rifle-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/HGXLgwT)
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Guys thanks to some words of encouragementarion, I think I’m going to keep the TVM order going.
Might not be what some people want but for my needs, the shoe fits.
Were I you id go with what pleased me an not give a good rip what pleases anyone else. Your the one paying for it an you have already said you didnt care for the HC aspects of the gun. TVM builds a good solid hunting/shooting gun that odds are will shoot very well. You did good choosing some quality components that it will be built with so relax an learn to shoot a flintlock well with it. Later on if you decide you want a more HC gun you can then go that route
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What do they charge for a plain as a fence post rifle? No butt plate,no entry thimble.
probably Green Mountain barrel 13/16 45 caliber,my lock and triggers and plain walnut.
Trigger guard can be a screen door pull like one I saw 60 years ago in Farris's gun shop
Bob Roller
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The style of rifle you have ordered will lend itself to the particular building characteristics of Corinth school build than other styles. Hope you enjoy shooting and continue in the hobby indefinitely.
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The style of rifle you have ordered will lend itself to the particular building characteristics of Corinth school build than other styles. Hope you enjoy shooting and continue in the hobby indefinitely.
Ha!! Had to google that one. :) Heck that is a valid point, though. While not set in the past times, Matt and his team are really making rifles in a different form just as all the other schools of the old times did to one another. Maybe in another century or better they really will call them Corinth school guns? :o :D
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Maybe in another century or better they really will call them Corinth school guns?
They already REALLY do! There are a good handful of builders you can include in that school.
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Smokey,
If I were you I would not think of canceling the order. I suspect once you shoot a flint rifle a few times you will either be hooked and looking forward to your next rifle or you will lose interest and not use it a lot going forward (probably the former). So for now just wait for your rifle to be completed. You can't get a better barrel or lock and they are the two most important parts of a flint rifle, shoot it then decide whether you want to invest a lot more money for a sleeker/sexier looking rifle.
Dennis
What Dennis said! We are really in a good place right now. There are so many options for those newer to the sport to choose from these days. Many of us "Old Duffers" started out with T/C Hawkens and Renegades because that was all the was available. Finding an affordable, quality made flintlock rifle was near impossible. As we got more into the sport, we all went on to buy/build many other rifles to satisfy our desires/needs for something above average. Even then, many of us still have those T/C's stuffed in the safe because there are so many memories associated with them. Chances are you'll end up feeling the same way about your TVM as some of us do about our old T/C's. All the components you ordered are the same components that the "better" gun builders are using in their guns. The only thing you won't be getting are the embellishments that make their firearms better than average. About the only thing I would have them add is a Chambers White Lightning vent liner (if you haven't already asked them to install one).
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Another of my TVM flintlocks.
(https://i.ibb.co/DpM4LH2/zzz.jpg) (https://ibb.co/k1DKMsC)
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The concept of the plainer that a stick SMR could be,could be considered sub par by
a number of top of the line makers.Using an automobile analogy,Jim and Katherine Kibler
have used brains and bucks to raise it from the status of a Model "T" Ford to that of a Packard.
The next step is a Duesenberg which really moves it out of sub par to a borderline scandal and
possibly unaffordable.
Bob Roller
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Mat is Tennessee Valley Muzzleloading, Jack is Tennessee Valley Manufacturing. Both build good quality guns that shoot well. I think Mat worked or trained under Jack and that’s why Mat’s rifles look very similar to Jack’s. If you have a limited budget either can build you a good shooting rifle. One thing you need to understand is they both have builders who help build their rifles for them so the quality will be a little varied from rifle to rifle but you will get a good shooting rifle.
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One more thing I think Jack has probably built more Muzzleloading rifles than all the builders on this forum have built combined. We are talking thousands of rifles. There are but a few others that have spent as much time building and promoting gun building than Jack Garner. Mat learned from Jack, so you will get a good rifle.
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Many of the 18th gun builders used apprentices and whatnot too.
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I've been trying to hire a good whatnot for years. ;)
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The perception of quality is certainly a subjective thing. We all have different backgrounds and expectations. When it comes to longrifles, I come from the background of making high quality, one-off custom rifles. With this the case, I wouln't be too happy with a lesser product.
As to our kits, we try to put all the quality in them that a high end fully custom rifle would have. I can turn one of our kits into a finely finished piece as nice as any "scratch built" longrifle I can build. With a heck of a lot less work...
I recall seeing an add from another supplier a while back that promoted how they made stocks one at a time and didn't use any modern, top secret, voodoo cnc machines. Wonder who this was directed towards? ;) They made mention how they did things sort of like JP Beck if I recall. Couldn't help to wonder how they rationalized angle grinders and JP Beck.... Guess everyone is trying to make a living and they have to do what they think is best to sell their product.
Jim
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LOL Mr. Kibler, I think the ad in question has been running for many, many years longer than you have been in business with your very, VERY nice cnc'd kits. In no way could it have possibly been directed at you, unless you also own a time machine.
I don't think TVM (either one) believes they are in direct competition with the high end "one of" custom builders. They fill a niche in the market that custom builders simply cannot fill (and I doubt they want to fill anyway). Honestly, I would love to own a high-end custom flintlock. But I'd have second, third and fourth thoughts running the woods like I do with a high end gun (historic or modern). Same as I have no problem driving my old well loved truck thru the brush, but avoid that with the nice family car. Both get me from A to B. Both have their place in the world. I love em both.
Mr Kibler, I am very impressed with your kits and think they too fill a niche in the market that the "one of" custom builder cannot fill (or the TVMs of the hobby for that matter)
respectfully,
Ken Prather
advertising professional who likes to barter for his hobby needs.
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LOL Mr. Kibler, I think the ad in question has been running for many, many years longer than you have been in business with your very, VERY nice cnc'd kits. In no way could it have possibly been directed at you, unless you also own a time machine.
I don't think TVM (either one) believes they are in direct competition with the high end "one of" custom builders. They fill a niche in the market that custom builders simply cannot fill (and I doubt they want to fill anyway). Honestly, I would love to own a high-end custom flintlock. But I'd have second, third and fourth thoughts running the woods like I do with a high end gun (historic or modern). Same as I have no problem driving my old well loved truck thru the brush, but avoid that with the nice family car. Both get me from A to B. Both have their place in the world. I love em both.
Mr Kibler, I am very impressed with your kits and think they too fill a niche in the market that the "one of" custom builder cannot fill (or the TVMs of the hobby for that matter)
respectfully,
Ken Prather
advertising professional who likes to barter for his hobby needs.
Well that's good to know. I feel much better knowing that the insult was intended in a general sort of way. ;)
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Not at all. Let me enlighten you... Back when the ad was made, there was a lot of mistaken assumptions going around about TVM. Folks assumed that they must be using a duplicator to do their stocks because of the large number of guns produced each year. (like somehow that was a bad thing) This ad was in response to that and only that. They do not use a duplicator for their stocks. It had nothing to do with insulting anyone. If you have any question of that, I would suggest you take some time to get to know Matt and Toni Avance.
As far as the JP Beck ad, this was (again) in response to a mistaken assumption going around that somehow TVM using a team approach to building was somehow contrary to historical gunmaking processes. It (again) was not an attack on anyone, it was in response to unwarranted criticism directed towards them from others.
They have been successful in the business of making historical traditional muzzleloaders for many years. They fill a niche that the high-end custom builders cannot fill. And they do it (not perfectly, but) pretty well.
Jim, your wonderfully fine products will never be confused for theirs. You are doing great and I predict you will do well for as long as you want to do so (regardless of how TVM makes their guns). I really think there is plenty of room in the hobby for everyone.
respectfully, Ken Prather
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Well that's good to know. Guess the old addage about assumptions applies here with me!
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The perception of quality is certainly a subjective thing. We all have different backgrounds and expectations. When it comes to longrifles, I come from the background of making high quality, one-off custom rifles. With this the case, I wouln't be too happy with a lesser product.
As to our kits, we try to put all the quality in them that a high end fully custom rifle would have. I can turn one of our kits into a finely finished piece as nice as any "scratch built" longrifle I can build. With a heck of a lot less work...
I recall seeing an add from another supplier a while back that promoted how they made stocks one at a time and didn't use any modern, top secret, voodoo cnc machines. Wonder who this was directed towards? ;) They made mention how they did things sort of like JP Beck if I recall. Couldn't help to wonder how they rationalized angle grinders and JP Beck.... Guess everyone is trying to make a living and they have to do what they think is best to sell their product.
Jim
Mr. Kibler,
Clearly, and I doubt anyone would challenge my opinion, your rifles are superior to nearly all others available to us today. I cannot think of a maker more worthy of praise than yourself, and it must be a source of immense pride to have, along with your spouse, revolutionized what a “kit gun” can be. A while ago we conversed on your future plans of possibly offering classic caplock rifles. You are a gentleman held in the highest esteem by all here and I am very thankful you have taken the time to converse with us on this board, as I know your efforts are in exceptional demand.
At present, various members here have spoken with me in private on the matter of Matt Avance’s TVM rifles, and I am now encouraged that those too, while in no way on the same “plane” as your impeccable rifles, are in general considered to be good functional shooters. Their styling and “correctness” may not be ideal, but I believe for my own purposes that it will have not been a bad choice. I agree with you that such matters are certainly subjective and all aspects on the subject can be endlessly debated. From my limited experience, I think we as a community can agree on perhaps one, and only one, thing about our sport. That is that we are fascinated with and love shooting the treasure that is the American Long Rifle. Our different mindsets, experiences, outlooks and goals only serve to diversify and enrich our great hobby and we can learn so much from one another because of that.
On this Christmas Day I give thanks to all my muzzleloading brethren near and far, and wish each and every one of you a prosperous and safe New Year!
V/r
-Smokey
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I agree 100%. Jim Kibler is not only an exemplary custom builder and master artisan, He also offers an exemplary, even revolutionary kit. Someday, I hope to be a proud owner of a Kibler rifle.
Ken Prather
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Guys I recently submitted an order to TVM for one of their Tennessee style flintlock rifles. Well some of the guys on another forum are pretty much saying TVMs aren’t very good and that I should have gotten a Tip Curtis gun or something else.
Guys is this so? I don’t need a rifle 100% historically correct, I do not reenact, just shoot and hunt. I ordered a plain poor boy iron mounted gun with fancy maple, .40 caliber A frame swamped 42” Rice round bottom bbl, and Chamber’s Late Ketland lock. Also will have a grease hole in the stock, devoid of side plate, entry thimble, nose cap, just a really plain gun but with (hopefully) pretty wood, a good bbl, and a good lock.
But those guys have me worried I should have made a different choice. :'(
Guys please let me know either way... I’m just worried!!
-Smokey
If I am not mistaken at one point they offered all of their kits with only Siler locks... a Siler is a fine lock, but definitely not an appropriate choice for a SMR... I think that is what most people are referring to.
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TVM makes a very nice flintlock. I have eight flintlocks three of which are TVMs. A 50. caliber Lancaster, a 50. caliber early Virginia, and a 32. caliber Southern ( pictured ). Are they 100% historically correct ? No. But they are good looking, reliable, and shoot great. And sold at a affordable price. I have no doubt you will love your TVM poor boy flintlock.
(https://i.ibb.co/xz3K59q/32-Southern-Squirrel-Rifle-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/HGXLgwT)
That is a GORGEOUS rifle and I deeply love it!!
If mine even looks half as good, brother I’ll be as happy as a clam that just won the lottery!! :)
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Then you're going to be really happy. I could point out architectural and styling flaws on all the above pictured guns but there is no reason to and they make no difference to happy customers anyway. I spend WAY too much time focusing on minutia anyway. ::)
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Then you're going to be really happy. I could point out architectural and styling flaws on all the above pictured guns but there is no reason to and they make no difference to happy customers anyway. I spend WAY too much time focusing on minutia anyway. ::)
Thanks Mike. :)
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I would order it with a Chambers late Ketland lock as they are the most common on a southern rifle and short of a Roller they are about the fastest lock out there.
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I would order it with a Chambers late Ketland lock as they are the most common on a southern rifle and short of a Roller they are about the fastest lock out there.
I did order a Late Ketland for my gun. It’ll be plain, but with nice wood, a good lock, and a nice swamped barrel.
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Mike Miller makes some really nice custom flintlocks. http://millerlongrifles.com/
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Not a TVM. My .36 caliber poor boy style squirrel rifle.
(https://i.ibb.co/jz9gKjY/36-Southern-Squirrel-Rifle-001.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1MY8V4N)
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My friend Frank has a TVM Tennessee rifle he paid $700 used. It does not have the best shape, as it is a little too thick in the fore end and wrist It is however a very good shooter. Quick, dependable lock and accurate. No complaints for the money. I have seen nice rifles in every respect come out of his shop. Like any builder, quality takes time, and time takes money.