AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: MuskratMike on January 12, 2019, 02:00:35 AM
-
Has anyone or does anyone "double ball" when hunting bear or any dangerous game. From what I've read there is no danger as long as the second ball sits directly on top of the first ball. I would think the second ball would be patched also to prevent it from moving forward when carrying the rifle. I ask this as I accidentally "doubled balled" at the range. I went ahead and shot it at the target and to my surprise there were two holes exactly where I aimed and they were less than an inch apart. I would think putting two balls into the vitals of a bear is much better than one ball. Anyone have thoughts on this?
-
My opinion it's just a disaster waiting to happen. I've never done it. Have no reason to do it. Put the ball in the boiler room and you will have your dead bear. Other may refute my opinion an thats fine. Oldtravler
-
I have been lucky and over the years have taken 11 bears, all with one ball. Two would make me uneasy and I would probably miss or hit him in the wrong spot. :)
-
This topic has come up before. There are many different replies that are probably in the archives. That said, 2 balls = more mass/weight = less velocity. Up the powder charge to compensate and your pressure goes up. I heard of people shooting double ball loads, but there are inherent dangers which I'm sure are now common knowledge. My feeling is that if you think you need two balls in a hunting load, you would be much better off shooting a single larger cal.ball...ie get a bigger gun :)
-
This topic has come up before. There are many different replies that are probably in the archives. My feeling is that if you think you need two balls in a hunting load, you would be much better off shooting a single larger cal.ball...ie get a bigger gun :)
Agree. If you’re going for black bear I’m not sure 2 balls with lower velocity would be better anyway.
-
Just knowing the ballistic properties from reloading everything from handgun to rifle tells me that (as mentioned above) if you put more mass\weight in front of a charge of powder, you will increase pressure as it takes more force to move the heavier projectile down the tube.
That being said, with the proper amount of powder behind a heavier projectile, pressure will be within safe guidelines.....however the heavier projectile will have less velocity than a lighter one. OTOH, the heavier projectile will have more energy up to a given distance.
Now, if your loading a "split projectile" my best guess would be your going to have two projectiles of the same weight, traveling at less velocity than you would with one projectile of the same weight. And because you have two separate chunks of lead......your going to have less energy no matter what point of distance those two chunks of lead are at.....vs shooting one chunk of lead.
Bottom line is.....shooting one projectile will give you more energy downrange than loading two balls ever will.
MHO
-
This topic has come up before. There are many different replies that are probably in the archives. That said, 2 balls = more mass/weight = less velocity. Up the powder charge to compensate and your pressure goes up. I heard of people shooting double ball loads, but there are inherent dangers which I'm sure are now common knowledge. My feeling is that if you think you need two balls in a hunting load, you would be much better off shooting a single larger cal.ball...ie get a bigger gun :)
Exactly Bob, well said. :)
-
Mike,
I think you just got lucky on the balls printing close together on target. I note that you didn't state the distance shot.
Ponder doing the same with most any firearm. Using the same charge, double the bullet weight. Would you want to bet it would hit anywhere near the original point-of-aim? I wouldn't. In fact, I'd bet big money it would print far, far away from a normal load.
Obviously, with the same powder charge, you'll get greatly reduced velocity for each ball. If each ball impacts slightly apart, which they will, you'll get much less penetration with each ball at a slower speed. You'll get LESS penetration, not more. A single projectile that is heavier usually does give deeper penetration than a lighter one, given a reasonable velocity at impact.
Recall that kinetic energy is Ek=1/2MVsquared. Velocity is squared. So energy is highly dependent on velocity. By reducing your velocity with two balls, your energy overall goes way down.
If you try to add powder with two balls, you are risking too high pressures. I also think accuracy at any range will be sporadic with two projectiles.
If you need more power downrange, you need a bigger bore firearm.
Buck and Ball loads were used in the day, but were often shot at a line of RedCoats where accuracy and penetration weren't at a premium. I guess the same held true with shooting a smoothbore at a deer at close range in heavy woods.
Hope this helps. God Bless, Marc
-
I am not recommending this, but we used to have a shoot where 2 teams competed to see who could cut a post in two first. many competitors double balled or shot buck and ball loads with no problem. It always scared me and I didn't do it. I have proofed guns I built with a double ball heavy load though.
-
This is what can happen if the second ball 'hydraulics' back up the bore after you thought it was seated on the first. And for what gain?
(https://i.ibb.co/9rMf0kN/DSCN1166.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VqKhGct)
(https://i.ibb.co/WVbVJxX/DSCN1167.jpg) (https://ibb.co/CPkPG1y)
(https://i.ibb.co/58zkFsS/DSCN1168.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DC6Ypwv)
(https://i.ibb.co/vqyfJwK/DSCN1169.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DWcm7VS)
No one was seriously injured, by the Grace of God, and we never did find the hammer.
-
Taylor, Now that's scary ! Was the shooter hurt bad ? LP
-
Taylor I missed your last line.. He was one lucky dude.
-
I believe the FBI or similar body did some research into the effectiveness of buckshot loads, and came to the conclusion that multiple projectiles striking simultaneously were effective all out of proportion to the size and weight of the projectiles involved - something to do with the way that nervous system responded to multiple wounds. Unfortunately, I can't find anything on the study just now, but based on what I have heard/read I do think it is indeed possible that two balls traveling at a lower velocity might be more effective than a single ball at higher velocity.
I think that there are good reasons not to try the double ball idea - safety and accuracy - but I don't think that the effectiveness of a load is a simple matter of how much energy it has at time of impact.
-
For hunting bears- black bears from 250pounds up to 850 pounds (Haida Gwaii), I would be inclined to suggest building or buying a .54 or larger rifle. A .45 or .50 would likely do, but I like bigger balls for potentially dangerous game. I would not have any hesitation in shooting a 600 pound or larger bear, of any make, if using my .69 cal. rifle.
My .36 and .50 are for small game and rendezvous shooting. When it comes to hunting large game, I believe in going big, thus .54 and up. A close friend of mine uses a .75.
Now THAT's a big game rifle that works decisively on moose, elk and bear.
-
Whenever I think a single ball from a gun might not be enough, I get a bigger gun.
-
It's not legal in my state for hunting.
And as you've seen here, it's frowned upon from a safety perspective. If you persist in the notion, you want to put both balls down at the same time to avoid creating a pressurized air pocket between them.
I expect you put those you shot down singly and maybe there was enough leakage past your front ball/patch combo to prevent any separation as one could get with a snugger combo.
But I'm not doing it. I trust my rifle and skills with a single, and far less opportunity to blow it all to kindling and fire-poker.
Best of luck with whatever you do.
-
Thank you to all who posted me on this. I never was recommending people do this. I just fired the double balls once and that was after making sure they were tight together with my range rod. Now after seeing the problems and well thought evidence if I ever find I have for some reason double balled a load I do have a ball puller that works well. It just goes to show don't talk with people while reloading your rifle at a shoot or at the range.
-
Concern was always having a gap between the balls. Have been told, although have never seen it myself, that early on the Thompson Center manual showed double ball loads. Oldest manual that I have is from 1979 - and it does not show any double loads. Guy I know that has used double ball load (50 cal) for years puts a felt wad over the powder and another one between the balls. As WadePatton previously suggested, he too loads them together to avoid an air pocket between them. Accuracy he gets at the range is pretty impressive, with both balls hitting within an inch or two of each other at 50 yards. Don’t know if it helps or hurts, but he has killed a lot of deer and one blackbear that I know of with that load.
Personally, I have the option of going up to 54, 58 or 62 if I felt under gunned, although if you compare roundball velocity at say 75 or 100 yards, you will find little difference there no matter what the MV. Chart I have shows a 530 grain 54 cal Maxiball (two 54 cal roundballs would weight 460 grains) over 120 gr of ff MV of 1400 FPS. A single 54 cal round ball over the same charge showing a MV of just under 2000 FPS. Using a ballistics calculator at 100 yards the round ball with a MV of 2000 FPS will be at 1080, while the one with the 1400 FPS MV will be at 940 FPS. A difference of only 140 FPS. At 75 yards, velocity difference is about 200 FPS (1217 vs 1008). All theoretical, would require real data to mean anything. If accurate, could be effective. Just not my choice.
-
Historically speaking, my findings re multiple projectiles etc are usually related to warfare. Large game is an entirely different matter. I've shot a lot of bears with my .62 and 10 bore, all loaded with a single round ball. They are extraordinarily effective. When the Hawken craze was in full bloom here back in the J. Johnson and The Mountain Men movie days, I hunted with a .54 Hawken loaded with the heavy slugs promoted at the time. Performance was less than spectacular. Since switching to round balls, I haven't lost an animal. The larger the ball, the better. Sometimes I'll opt for a hardened ball, [ W.Weight ] but I wouldn't hesitate to take on just about anything in N.A. with my 10 bore, loaded with 140 gr of Ffg and a single round ball...within range of course :) A double ball load is more hazardous I.M.O. than a buck and ball load. Actually, the idea of double ball use may have been what lead to what I've heard called a sugar loaf bullet....looks like two balls joined at the waist.
-
Mr. Marcruger, you'd lose your big money big time betting that double ball loads would "print far, far away from a normal load'. Carole was a deer hunter but no longer had the hand strength to load her .50 Thompson Center. She asked me to build a .40 flintlock that she could shoot. She liked it and wanted to hunt deer with it, but the ball weight of about 90 grains is not legal in Utah, has to be at least 170 grains for deer. I could not find a suitable conical in .40 caliber then. A game warden friend, Chad, suggesting using a double ball load. Here is Carole's rifle I built with a 12 inch length of pull, 36 inch barrel. The eagles are copper and the silver is sterling.
(https://i.ibb.co/b7tGtCJ/PICT0002.jpg) (https://ibb.co/st7X7NH)
She wanted four hearts (for her family) as a thumb inlay and I threw in a Monarch butterfly.
(https://i.ibb.co/YPt1Mqg/PICT0010.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0mf6Sd5)
She was known as "Eagle Lady". Here a test target with Swiss 2F.
(https://i.ibb.co/sRkVb8z/carole2fswiss.jpg) (https://ibb.co/H41HB53)
I tested double ball loads in my ,40 Jacob Wigle I built. I seated one patched ball and then ran another patched ball down on it. Never had any air compression problem. I found that the double ball load lost about 450 fps over the single ball load. This was not enough velocity for deer hunting, so I doubled the load to get up to hunting velocity.
The top left target is 70 grains of Goex 3F, velocity is 2201 fps with 36 fps spread. The target below it was shot with double patched balls and gave 1765 fps with a 9 fps spread and cut the group size in half.
The middle top target is 70 grains of Swiss 3F (same bulk measure, not weight) at 2361 fps/40 fps spread. The target below it is with the same powder and charge but double patched balls at 1863 fps/15 fps. The second pair went wild, the only time I had that happen, but the first pair went through the same hole and the third pair hit about an inch apart.
Top right target is with 70 grains (bulk measure) of Swiss 2F and went 2271 fps/41. Bottom right target is the same but with double patched balls and went 1784 fps/18 spread, and is about a third tighter.
(https://i.ibb.co/YyZRvNC/doubleball.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vQYw2cF)
Carole killed a mule deer buck with the 70 grains of Goex 3F double ball load, at about 70 yards.
(https://i.ibb.co/wQ5SyCr/Carole-40-deer.png) (https://ibb.co/pKYf2Zr)
This double ball loading was to meet a specific need, having a legal ball weight for deer hunting. We recognized the danger of shooting separated double ball loads. and Carole did not do it again. Carl had me build her a .50 fullstock flintlock to her fit, for their 50th wedding anniversary. I DO NOT RECOMMEND DOUBLE BALL LOADS AND ADVISE ANYONE CONSIDERING IT NOT TO DO IT. If you must, be very sure both balls are down. The double balls do not equal the weight of a conical, which are shown in Lyman's handbook with powder charges equal to the maximum shown with a single round ball. But if those balls separate in the bore- as shown by Taylor- the rifle can be ruined. George out here was doing the "cut the 2x4" in a race at a rendezvous, using double balls. He destroyed his rifle.
-
for all the above reasons, i don't and won't double ball.
i use my .62 if the game hunted warranted big medicine.
-
History is plentiful with multiple ball and buck & ball loadings as well as grape and chain shot. Loading should be performed in the same manner as bird or buck shot in a fowler where the components are stacked at the muzzle and seated as a single unit. Doing such avoids the trapping of air between components.
-
In every state I've hunted in a double ball is illegal; one projectile only is legal. A dbl ball load does not seem to be a consistent performer and is therefore not my cup of tea. Anyone who tries a double ball should understand the risk and act accordingly.
Herb, that's a beautiful little .40 you built for her.
-
In every state I've hunted in a double ball is illegal; one projectile only is legal. A dbl ball load does not seem to be a consistent performer and is therefore not my cup of tea. Anyone who tries a double ball should understand the risk and act accordingly.
Herb, that's a beautiful little .40 you built for her.
I question to that which you base the statement of inconsistent performance upon. I have witnessed many double and triple ball loads as well as buck and ball loads print very consistent patterns. The loads must be tuned according to each gun. It is not uncommon to obtain triple ball groups of 200mm at 60m from a smoothbore and less from double ball in a rifle. Where permitted, these are excellent for dangerous game like boar.
HK
-
I question to that which you base the statement of inconsistent performance upon. I have witnessed many double and triple ball loads as well as buck and ball loads print very consistent patterns. The loads must be tuned according to each gun. It is not uncommon to obtain triple ball groups of 200mm at 60m from a smoothbore and less from double ball in a rifle. Where permitted, these are excellent for dangerous game like boar.
HK
As Herb mentioned above, one of the dbl loads shot wild. Even if this happens only once in a while, it's "inconsistent" in my opinion. Add to that the illegality of a double ball in many jurisdictions along with the risk of damage (to shooter & gun) and it puts the risk of dbl ball loads fairly close to that of pouring a main charge directly from the horn. I've killed lots of deer and none took more than one shot. Few ran even 50 - 75 yards and most didn't run. One ball did this nicely from my .45s. If I had a doubt, I'd use a bigger gun.
-
Davy Crockett did it, but he only had one rifle.
-
Hanshi,
50-75 yards of travel after being hit can make the difference between life, death, happiness or severe injury when hunting dangerous game. If regulations restrict multi-ball loads, I would increase the bore to 12 gauge or larger.
-
HelmutKutz, I have a much respected .62 smoothbore that drops deer DRT and I like it more and more as time goes on. Curiously, I've had more DRTs with my .45 flintlock than the .50s. I've lived in close contact with wild pigs, huge canebrake rattlers and bears and didn't worry. The only thing that I was scared of - in my 62 years in Georgia - were feral dogs. There were people killed near us and my forestry classmates carried sidearms in their job after graduation. The sheriff's dept. killed an entire pack of them after the death of a retired couple. While I don't recommend this, one person I knew of killed many wild pigs with a .32 muzzleloader.
-
I have much respect for the 62 caliber but three 50 caliber balls carry more combined energy than a single 62. The multiple wound channels are also preferred for a faster put down. If one must be limited to single ball, I would accept nothing small than 58 caliber with a hard ball and aim for bone break not bleed out.
-
I still state (Yup.....call me re-Peat) that the shooting of two separate projectiles vs shooting one projectile of the same weight as the two together, is a math problem.
One projectile of the same weight as the two, will provide you with much higher energy and much more down range penetration than the two separate projectiles ever will.
-
I have much respect for the 62 caliber but three 50 caliber balls carry more combined energy than a single 62. The multiple wound channels are also preferred for a faster put down. If one must be limited to single ball, I would accept nothing small than 58 caliber with a hard ball and aim for bone break not bleed out.
Helmut, get a 14, 12, or 11 bore rifle and do both, smash bone and bleed them out.
-
This is what can happen if the second ball 'hydraulics' back up the bore after you thought it was seated on the first. And for what gain?
(https://i.ibb.co/9rMf0kN/DSCN1166.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VqKhGct)
(https://i.ibb.co/WVbVJxX/DSCN1167.jpg) (https://ibb.co/CPkPG1y)
(https://i.ibb.co/58zkFsS/DSCN1168.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DC6Ypwv)
(https://i.ibb.co/vqyfJwK/DSCN1169.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DWcm7VS)
No one was seriously injured, by the Grace of God, and we never did find the hammer.
thank the lord that guy was was not hert.
-
I never even think in terms of "energy" chasing game in the bush. One ball is all it has ever took for quickly dropping game in my 60 years of shooting. Energy doesn't kill (with muzzleloaders), it's tissue damage & disruption.
-
Terminal performance is proportional directly to the combination of energy transfer and permanent wound channel creation. It is a physics matter where the amount of energy transferred from multiple balls is greater than that transferred from a single ball even when the single ball is larger within reason. A 12 gauge will produce a sufficient wound channel and break bone but all else being same three 58c or 60c balls spread in the kill zone will always be more effective for termination speed. Factor in also the combined surface area and huge difference is demonstrated by physics.
-
I never even think in terms of "energy" chasing game in the bush. One ball is all it has ever took for quickly dropping game in my 60 years of shooting. Energy doesn't kill (with muzzleloaders), it's tissue damage & disruption.
It doesn't matter if you do or don't think of "energy", it's a scientific fact and can be measured and is there even if you don't think of it.
-
A single .45 ball at 2000 fps at fifty ( 50 ) yards behind the front legs or behind the ear will drop a deer every time.
A .58, .60, or .69 cal. ball hitting a deer straight on, quartering away, or even a Texas bulls eye will put it down.
Know you target, know your gun, and know where your gun will hit, will always give you good results.
Fred
-
I am in the single ball camp. I have never shot at game with a double ball much less three balls. I know a couple of guys who have shot double ball at targets and neither one could get accurate enough loads for game shooting. As always, shot placement is key and if you know your load, one ball or two isn't accurate why would you trust it to hit where you want it. JMHO
-
If a high "energy" level is required to kill a deer, put away your bows because they don't have enough energy. I've noticed that "energy" is often confused with "momentum". Two balls; illegal where I hunt.
-
When the learning stops, " A man convinced against his will, if of the same opinion still."
I see no benefit to multiple ball loads, except for one match we had back in 1976 of so.
25 yards, high score in 2 minutes. I had a Sharon 'deep groove buttoned barrel" I bought from Hall
in Kalispel Montana in '75.
I didn't use patches, but did use .375" pure lead balls, a handful each shot, pushed down several at a time
using a steel rod- quickly.
I won the contest & the 10 or 20 lb. chunk of buffalo meat when was first place prizes.
I had 27 balls on the target for score & the lowest score was 6pts per ball. Multiple balls do have a place.
I would never consider using a multiple ball load for big game hunting, especially here, where your shot might
be only 15 yards, or 150 yards. Accuracy and reliability are what is needed. I would/could not trust the double ball load
to hit where I needed it to.
Afterall, a double ball load in my hunting rifle would be 964gr. weight - what powder charge would you double ballers suggest?
-
Daryl, half the ball weight! ;D :) BTW your thoughts pretty much echo mine and it appears many others on this forum.
-
I do apologize for my confusion as I thought this forum was for the exchange of information and historical information in particular but apparently it is only for the dissertation of certain opinions. I shan't be a bother again.
HK
-
Helmet, forums are free-for-all’s. Ya never know what you’re hoping to get and folks don’t always know or care what you’re looking for. They are just thinking out loud. I’d not be discouraged.
When I go hunting for good chert to make gun flints for myself, I probably look at 1000 rocks in a creek bed and find one to dig up or check more closely. A lot of those turn out to be unsuitable. Odds here of finding something to take home and work on are much better.
-
Yes, it’s very dangerous to shoot double balls if you patch both of them, as this destroyed rifle so aptly illustrates. If you shoot a relatively tight patch ball combination, it pretty hard not to compress air between the two balls. So, drop the first ball down on the powder bare, and then patch the second one to keep it tight against the first ball.
The same sort of disaster can happen in a smoothbore shooting buck and ball loads if nitro cards, and or wads, that seal the bore to the point a chamber of air is captured between the projectiles.
Hungry Horse
-
It's not my mission to change anyone's mind or convince others what they're doing is wrong; unless what they are doing is clearly dangerous. I often do provide information that points out misconceptions, however. The quest for high energy numbers needed to kill deer is, IMHO, right up there with the old "dwell time" explanation of some years ago. A knife, arrow or a slow moving bullet has little energy but maybe considerable "dwell time" relatively speaking. But it seems to be difficult sometimes to gain traction for "tissue disruption" as a simple cause for terminal effect on game; too simple maybe? I'm quite fine with various ways to load that give shooters confidence. It's just that it's always preferable to know how terminal effects occur and the logic that defines them.
I say do whatever blows your skirt up; just be safe. If it's legal, I find no fault with it. Dbl ball is illegal in all my hunting jurisdictions.
-
Heavy and slow will always out penetrate light 'n fast.
-
Considering either .45 or .50 will pen to the off side and/or exit with a pure lead ball started at 2,000fps(which will usually be
shown to give the best accuracy), I do not see a reason to slow it down with 2 balls for possibly better penetration & what will
amount to greater elevation required over longer distances and poorer accuracy to go along with that - sorry- I see 0 reason
except for in an area like Herb noted. Even them, I would simply use a .45 or larger calibre that used a ball of the correct weight.
-
Penetration is not correlative with the effects of terminal performance beyond the projectile having enough momentum to reach the vitals. Terminal performance requires the transfer of energy in a manner which it is usable. Energy exiting the other side is unused, wasted. For the one who mentioned using a bow, why use cutting point and not target point for hunting big animals? Both have same velocity, momentum and energy, yet only one uses energy effectively for terminal performance, why? Same thing with one versus multiple ball when compared within given range and parameters, multiple ball produces higher energy transfer and makes more wound channels which improves terminal performance. It is a matter of physics and biology. I am not arguing legal or not, but if not laws are poorly thought out.
For ones who claim multiple ball are somehow dangerous to load I ask why so many have survived shooting fowlers for centuries? Loading two or three balls is no different than loading one or a shot charge. If a man does not understand physics of loading, he should not be shooting muzzleloader. Same as shot or buck and ball, components are started at the muzzle and seated all at same time. To attempt seating separately or not using patches is just foolness like ramming wads before putting in shot and cap wad, it just trap air by piston effect.
-
Interesting discussion for sure. I'm wondering how accurate your double or three ball loads are at say 50,75, and 100 yds. To me a hunter would be doing his target animal a gross injustice by risking a shot that wasn't up to the task, accuracy wise.
-
Interesting discussion for sure. I'm wondering how accurate your double or three ball loads are at say 50,75, and 100 yds. To me a hunter would be doing his target animal a gross injustice by risking a shot that wasn't up to the task, accuracy wise.
Like a fowler shots are kept within the maximum working distance determined by pattern spread which is typically 60-70m.
-
Don't know about 50-75-100 yards but at a shoot some time ago I was just plumb wore out and had 2 shots left to take. I loaded my rifle with a double ball (both patched), did not increase the powder charge and let fly at 25 yards. My recollection is that the balls hit within less than an inch of each other in the black. 1/2 stock Vincent style rifle in .40 caliber.
Mark
-
Helmut, have you ever tested those double ball loads over a cronograph?(sp) Just wondering what the energy of one of those balls is at say 70M.
-
Helmut, have you ever tested those double ball loads over a cronograph?(sp) Just wondering what the energy of one of those balls is at say 70M.
I have tested three ball in 50c rifle.
Average spread 165mm
70m velocity 359m/s @ 753 joules each ball
-
Those figures sound almost impressive, what powder charge where you using?
-
359 is 1,177.8 fps
.490ball is about 177gr. so 545fpe ea. X 3 = 1,645fpe total
165mm is 6.5".
-
I don't know how those figures would compare with my 62 shooting a 610 ball-aprox. 340 gr with 125 gr. swiss 1&1/2 f because I havent run the loads over a chrono yet. The first three Bears I shot all droped within sight, one was 300# the other two were 240# all shot with pure lead ball with no exit, the last two I shot were same load but a small % of tin in the mix and both were total pass through, one was over 500# the other was 220# and they went 20 yds each. That gun shoots one hole groups at 50 Yds. so I guess I will stik with the single ball. Works for me.
-
No kidding!!
-
Smylee,
110 grains volume
FF granulation
Flintlock.
Daryl,
Thank you and my apologies. I should have converted to Imperial units for this forum.
-
NP- my hunting rifle uses one ball. It's .682" in diameter, weighs 482gr. and is driven by 165gr. 2f GOEX.
It polaxes moose.
-
If I get this right the load data is as follows:
110gr. FF
Projectile(s) weight of 3 .490RB =525gr.
Velocity = 1,178fps
Energy = 556ft\lb each or 1,668 total energy at muzzle.
Now, looking at loading a single projectile of a 50 caliber as follows:
90gr FF
Projectile weight = 175gr
Velocity = 1,861
Energy = 1,631
Now, in comparing the two loads.....and what each individual projectile's downrange energy would be, I get the following:
3\ball Single
Velocity 1178 1861
energy at 50yds 505 1243
energy at 75yds 490 1195
energy at 100yds 476 1148
So, if you used the 3 ball load for large game, the downrange energy of each individual RB is less than half that of shooting a single RB from the rifle.
It's likely just my preference, but I would much rather hit the deer with one projectile with excellent energy vs hitting it with 3 projectiles of less than half the value.
Plus, I wonder what the long term effect of the higher pressures of attempting to push 3-times the projectile weight down the barrel would be.
Again, likely just me, but I'd chose a one projectile load.
FIWI
-
I think too many people think in terms of FPE actually meaning or having something to do with killing power.
Put a 1/2" hole through it's lungs and your hunt is over. I don't care if it's a deer, bear, moose or elk.
Shoot it in the guts and you will likely lose it, no mater how many holes through it's guts you make.
-
Davemuzz you are not understanding how multiball works.
753j = 556 fpe per ball @ 70m/76y thus combined energy imparted to animal is 2259j/1668 fpe.
If I read your data correctly, single ball carries only 1195 fpe @ 75y or 473 fpe less.
Three balls make three wound channels thus three times the physical damage which means three times more bleeding.
Compare to shotgun where one #6 pellet 2.0grain at 40y delivers 2.5 fpe and unless the one happens to hit the brain or spine, it will not kill the bird quickly but same bird hit with 6 pellets having total energy 15 fpe bird dies quickly.
-
Davemuzz you are not understanding how multiball works.
753j = 556 fpe per ball @ 70m/76y thus combined energy imparted to animal is 2259j/1668 fpe.
If I read your data correctly, single ball carries only 1195 fpe @ 75y or 473 fpe less.
Three balls make three wound channels thus three times the physical damage which means three times more bleeding.
Compare to shotgun where one #6 pellet 2.0grain at 40y delivers 2.5 fpe and unless the one happens to hit the brain or spine, it will not kill the bird quickly but same bird hit with 6 pellets having total energy 15 fpe bird dies quickly.
Well, I think I respectively disagree with your calculations of how much energy each ball has when it impacts the target.
And I'll use your example of shotgun pellets to demonstrate my point. Ie:
Heavy moving mass at the same velocity will ALWAYS have greater momentum (Momentum = mass x velocity) and more energy than a lighter weight mass. Ie:....look at your shotgun example. The 6 heavier pellets have more energy than 36 pellets (lighter weight pellets) at any range, at the same velocity. (I also look at it this way....if you have to stop either a bicycle coming at you at 10mph, or a loaded cement truck at 10mph, which one do you elect to stop?)
On the Hornady web site, https://www.hornady.com/team-hornady/ballistic-calculators/#!/ (https://www.hornady.com/team-hornady/ballistic-calculators/#!/) using a 5gr projectile and then a 10gr projectile moving at the same velocity...1,150fps, the 5gr. has ME of 15ft\lbs, and the 10gr has ME of 29ft\lbs.
In the three ball your total energy calculation is correct, however we are dealing with three separate projectiles.....three different pieces of mass. If the 3 balls were all "connected" or fused together, then we would have more energy.....but again, just from one projectile.
You can shoot a bullet at 1,100fps at a 40-degree angle, and it will travel quite far before it hits a peak curve, however if you shoot 100 #6 bird shot at the same velocity, it will reach the curve much faster, and the curve will be much lower. Less mass......less momentum.
-
Well here I go again,wondering. If you have a 3 ball load ,each ball weighs 100 gr vs. a single 300 gr. ball-the 3 -100 gr. load hits with three balls with less energy per ball thus each ball does less damage-less expansion,less tissue damage and probably less penitration(sp) as compared to a single 300 gr. ball. On top of all that the accuracy aspect will come into play which is of vital importance as shot placement is one of the most important components of a clean kill. I think the single ball will out shoot a three ball load any day of the week. Any thoughts?
-
You fellas are makin' my head hurt! LOL
-
Davemuzz, you can disagree with me as much as pleases you but you can not disagree with the results. Animals, even charging animals drop within feet not yards. Depending on size of animal and impact area most times balls completely penetrate the vitals with very good wound channels. I welcome your disagreement but ask how many deer and bear have fallen from 32c buckshot?
-
Disagreement's , when respectful can be healthy and generate some interesting discussions. Ain't techno fun! ;D ;)
-
Davemuzz, you can disagree with me as much as pleases you but you can not disagree with the results. Animals, even charging animals drop within feet not yards. Depending on size of animal and impact area most times balls completely penetrate the vitals with very good wound channels. I welcome your disagreement but ask how many deer and bear have fallen from 32c buckshot?
I can't answer that Helmut, but can add that an Ontario cousin stopped using .32 buckshot after losing 2 whitetail bucks. He went to a single projectile and then, they dropped on the spot for him, or within 2 or 3 steps. All shooting inside 30 yards.
-
Davemuzz, you can disagree with me as much as pleases you but you can not disagree with the results. Animals, even charging animals drop within feet not yards. Depending on size of animal and impact area most times balls completely penetrate the vitals with very good wound channels. I welcome your disagreement but ask how many deer and bear have fallen from 32c buckshot?
I can't answer how many have dropped from 32c buckshot as in Pennsylvania buckshot is illegal to use on deer. But I KNOW that shooting a 405gr. lead bullet from a 45-70 at 1,567fps will drop every whitetail in it's tracks. There is no blood trail as I see where the whitetail has dropped.
I know my calculations are correct.....just as I know smacking a whitetail with one projectile from a .50 or .54 caliber is all that's needed to have venison for dinner that night.
Here's my recent doe kill from my .54 cal using 85gr FFF and a PRB:
(https://i.imgur.com/K5tBfQo.jpg)
FWIW
-
I have hunted all manner of game on four continents and can assure you multi-ball and buck & ball loads came about to serve a purpose which they have done quite well. There's no telling how many animals including boar, deer and bear have fallen to these loads. I have seen many little gazelle smaller than 70 pound as well as boar even just 120 pound continue running 50m to 100m or more after taking solid lung hits from 9,3x62 and larger bore rifles with expanding bullets and single round ball. Reason because energy is wasted and not transferred to animal. Same animals hit with two or three 50c or larger round ball will drop within feet not meters/yards because energy is used making damage to animal. When bullet/ball leaves the animal, all remaining velocity and energy are wasted. Hunting dangerous game is done normally in thick cover where shots are close and fast. An animal not going down in feet will cause great harm or death which is why such loads were used. I have seen both what large round ball will do single and in loads of two or three which is why when legal to do so I always choose more is better. If not then bigger is better.
-
Shot placement on any game animal is key. What causes death is not the energy of the projectile, but what damage the projectile can do to either the blood flow system, or the nervous system.
I've never been one who believes that the bullet must remain in the animal in order to perform "better" (faster kill) vs a projectile that passes thru. IMHO, the pass thru now provides two channels of blood letting.
And size does matter. A larger diameter bullet makes a bigger hole....and can sever more "things" that you want to sever.
I've killed whitetail with a 100gr 3 blade arrow that have dropped on the spot.....and some that have ran at most 100 yards. It's all about placement. Cut the top of the heart or sever the spine and usually it's a DRT episode. Double lung and they will run up to 100 yards.
I can see some "argument" for the 3 ball.....OTOH.....none of those 3 ball projectiles will likely pass thru a big game animal at 50 yards or beyond. And how deep the projectile goes will have a big effect on how quickly the animal dies.
I'll shot one heavy ball. They have always worked well for me.
-
I think too many people think in terms of FPE actually meaning or having something to do with killing power.
I couldn't agree more! Muzzleloaders are low energy arms and, to repeat myself, don't kill using energy figures. FPE generally matters in modern cartridges but not in prb shooters.
-
I think too many people think in terms of FPE actually meaning or having something to do with killing power.
I couldn't agree more! Muzzleloaders are low energy arms and, to repeat myself, don't kill using energy figures. FPE generally matters in modern cartridges but not in prb shooters.
One must have energy transfer no matter what the weapon or projectile. The expediency of termination is determined by how effectively the energy is transferred to the target. The more effectively the available energy is transferred, the quicker termination will be. Broadhead and field point arrows come with same mass and velocity and same energy but only broadhead transfers energy efficiently for terminal effect. If compared one ball to three balls one ball may have more total energy than one of the three but the three balls use more energy efficiently. Just for discussion say single ball uses 60% of total energy efficiently but three balls use 90% efficiently, even if one has more total it uses far e less efficiently. Energy must always be considered because termination is only achieved through transfer of energy no matter if it is by ball, arrow, rock or club all require energy transfer.
-
... Just for discussion say single ball uses 60% of total energy efficiently but three balls use 90% efficiently, even if one has more total it uses far e less efficiently. ...
I don't know where you get the 60%\90% energy efficiently numbers.....in fact, I don't know what the definition of "energy efficiency" is. However, 60% of one 3-ball would be 455-ft\lbs at 50 yards and one ball would be 746-ft\lbs.
Still like the one ball.
FWIW
-
Shot placement is always a factor in a clean kill but on some types of game I want total pass through even if I don't have what ever energy efficiency is because on game such as long hair with a lot of fat under hide, as in Bear, two holes leave a better blood trail, IMHO.
-
... Just for discussion say single ball uses 60% of total energy efficiently but three balls use 90% efficiently, even if one has more total it uses far e less efficiently. ...
I don't know where you get the 60%\90% energy efficiently numbers.....in fact, I don't know what the definition of "energy efficiency" is. However, 60% of one 3-ball would be 455-ft\lbs at 50 yards and one ball would be 746-ft\lbs.
Still like the one ball.
FWIW
Using a soft lead round ball that creates pass-through hole one can assume maximum of roughly 60% energy usage by thumb rule for factors of average ball deformation and wound channel. The actual amount will vary of course by individual situation and is typically much less but 60% is maximum one can expect from projectile that does pass-through. For sake of argument we use your 1195 fpe value for single 50c ball at 180 grain which at maximum 60% efficiency value gives 717 fpe transferred to animal. With 1668 fpe for three-ball load even if one only still assumes the same 60% energy transfer per ball the value is 1000 fpe transferred to animal which means 40% more energy than single ball. So also consider single ball impact off by one inch misses solid vital hit meaning animal runs longer distance and time before expiring but three balls creating three times the wound channel still means very rapid kill.
-
Shot placement is always a factor in a clean kill but on some types of game I want total pass through even if I don't have what ever energy efficiency is because on game such as long hair with a lot of fat under hide, as in Bear, two holes leave a better blood trail, IMHO.
When animal drops within feet of where it is shot there is no need to worry about blood trail because tracking is unnecessary.
-
Well, because your load is 3 balls seated against each other, I can only assume (as I have no empirical data for proof) that each ball is obturating when shot, thus when now spinning out of the barrel. all three balls have some "flat spot" on them (one ball has 2 flat spots) and the rifling will cause the flight of the ball on each one to be much different.
So, I very much doubt the balls are close together when they hit the target. Thus, you still only have 3 balls hitting the target with roughly 556-ft\lbs ME each, vs one ball at 1,631-ft\lbs ME.
Outdoor Life magazine states that a minimum of 1,000-ft\lbs of energy is needed to ethically kill a whitetail deer. None of those 3 balls from a 3-ball load even approaches the minimum suggested energy levels. The single ball load exceeds the 1,000-ft\lb easily.
A big game animal drops within feet when there is immediate massive stoppage of blood flow to the brain, and\or a severance of the neurological system.
Again, I will trust my 1,631-ft\lbs of energy to do the job vs chancing the penetration depth, and accuracy of any 3-ball load (556-ft\lbs) from a flintlock rifle.
Dave
-
I'm with you, Dave. We discussed this topic today as we shot the trail. Wonderful day, above freezing sun shining.
Several of our 'hot' topics were discussed as I loaded my .36 with a .020" patch and a .350" ball. I did use Mr. Fontlock's lube
and the gun loaded exactly the same all day, no wiping, no swabbing, no cleaning of any sort, except for pushing the next ball
and patch down the bore - 2 fingers on the rod only, were needed. Rice barrel. Good day. Missed only 2 targets I think, - the straw and
string as well on the first shot so I guess that's 4. ;D
-
I would not doubt that a three ball load might be effective on SOME game at agreeable range but the shot placement/accuracy aspect has always been my most sought after aspect of the whole business and on some game the exit hole in the most advantages spot falls right in with that and a blood trail that re-affirms in my mind that I used the right load.
-
Davemuzz,
Ball spread is typically less than 165mm/6.5in at 70m/76y which is the maximum range a such load would be used. Most game is taken at 50m and less where the average spread is 100mm/4in. Even at maximum range each balls retains sufficient energy to penetrate completely deer and boar vitals. The minimum projectile energy mandates surely have arisen from my former European counterparts who formed such grossly errant assumption from reading in a library rather than observation in the field. I can see you also have no such experience in the field or you would not persist in rejecting what has been proven in the field for at least two centuries or perhaps longer even still. I do not know how else to explain to you that single ball exiting animal delivers less terminal energy to animal than two or three ball whether they exit or not. Velocity time mass is what creates energy number but it is only part of equation when interacting with biological systems where the primary concern is not how much potential energy but how much energy is transferred efficiently to biological system. Very fast ball or bullet has high number of potential energy but potential energy number means nothing as only transferred energy makes wound damage and wound damage is what kills. Smokeless gunpowder has tremendous potential energy when contained by cartridge and steel tube but when burning in open air the potential energy means nothing as all the energy is wasted. Same with balls and bullets that do not transfer energy to the biological system but waste it on the air beyond the animal.
When a single ball hits animal there is one force working in one area. When three balls hit animal there is a much larger force working as a unit. Depending upon ball spread at given range, said force may be working in one larger area or in three areas each the same as any other single ball. Once you have seen the wound channel created by a close spread of 60mm/2.36in you will understand why this is so effective for dangerous game. Even at maximum range where spread is 165mm/6.5in and one ball takes the heart or near so while other two take the lungs or shoulder the animal drops on the spot or within feet. If it is blood one wishes to see there is plenty enough issuing from four or six holes or one very large hole. Do not discount that with which you have no experience.
-
WOW - just - WOW. ::)
:-X
-
Davemuzz,
...I can see you also have no such experience in the field or you would not persist in rejecting what has been proven in the field for at least two centuries or perhaps longer even still...
No experience? Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha!!!!
Proven in the field? By who? You? And your expertise is what?....what you type on a key board?
If 3-ball loads were so incredibly effective, then I don't understand why we don't have cartridge manufacturers developing, promoting, and using such loads "in the field." And why?.....because the math and the actual facts and circumstances DO NOT support them as viable.
Period.
Dave
-
Your ignorance of more than two centuries of history is not justification for your arrogance. Perhaps you would benefit more from study than arguing about that which you clearly do not even wish to understand. I bid you good day with link to commercial product that works very well in shotguns to which many others who tried it will agree.
http://www.dixieslugs.com/products.html
[/quote Your own links support what I've been saying all along and you don't even recognize that.
Look at the link you posted: http://www.dixieslugs.com/products.html (http://www.dixieslugs.com/products.html) The top item is simply a shotgun slug....the next one is your infamous 3-ball which is NOTHING MORE than a mini-buckshot load. But hey....don't believe me. Read this: https://thebiggamehuntingblog.com/buckshot-vs-slug/ (https://thebiggamehuntingblog.com/buckshot-vs-slug/) And this is an excerpt from that link:
"Another disadvantage of using buckshot is the fact that since the individual pellets are normally relatively lightweight (a lead 00 buckshot pellet weighs 50-51 grains), they do not retain their energy or penetrate as well as slugs. This also limits the effectiveness of buckshot on thick-skinned animals and at longer ranges."
Buckshot has it's place....albeit, not much of a place, in big game hunting. Here in Pennsylvania it's actually illegal to use it on big game. And for good reason
Dave
-
Ok enough about double balling I am locking this thread.
Dennis
-
I beat you to it, Dennis. :)
A double ball wouldn't be legal here and a single .54 ball will kill anything in Colorado. We don't have grizz anymore and i'm sure the old mountain men thought a double ball was better for grizz.