AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: mark brier on January 13, 2019, 07:07:48 PM
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As I had previously stated I have a family connection to Simon Kenton, with that said I am working on this rifle that could have been. The rifle in mind is the one given to Kenton by Jacob Butler. Butler was a somewhat wealthy man who it appears may have come from the Lancaster, Virginia area. F. Klette worked near Lancaster so this rifle I will attempt to have some of his influence. The side plate is made enough that I am ready to clean that wood up and inlet.
Mark Brier
(https://i.ibb.co/ZTJgFCN/IMG-3698.jpg) (https://ibb.co/KyGsfHm)
(https://i.ibb.co/RHMh4zM/IMG-3699.jpg) (https://ibb.co/C0XJshX)
(https://i.ibb.co/j8tZGy9/IMG-3700.jpg) (https://ibb.co/FhpqJ5k)
(https://i.ibb.co/Zm6sQv6/IMG-3701.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5FWDQCW)
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That will be a beautiful rifle, Mark!
I live from the small city named after him. in "Simon Kenton country", Logan Co., OH. About 5 mi from his homestead, 14 mi from the city named after him. Most folks have no idea he was a pioneer.
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Mark,
I read somewhere that Simon Kenton also owned a swivel breach flintlock rifle. I sat through a play that Mel Hankla did for the CLA many years ago. Mel acted as though he was Simon Kenton and told his life story while sitting in a rocking chair. What a great job he did, I really thought he was Simnon Kenton. At times everyone was laughing, and then a few minutes later everyone had tears in their eyes. I would love to see him do it again. I am sure some of you ALR members must have seen it at the same time.
David Price
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Neat project and an interesting story. Lancaster Co. Va is near me. I have read referrence to the Butler family in colonial times. There are still some Butlers down that way.
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This buttstock has been a fight all the way through this for whatever reason, but finally getting into something I can deal with and finish up shaping it.
Mark Brier
(https://i.ibb.co/JFDNC5x/IMG-3711.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Xkc9VSy)
(https://i.ibb.co/281Mftp/IMG-3712.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9wk4CTd)
(https://i.ibb.co/ZzmZbnc/IMG-3713.jpg) (https://ibb.co/JjQhSfr)
(https://i.ibb.co/p3FGxt7/IMG-3715.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LC7b8LF)
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May have been a fight but it looks like you won. Clean and sharp all over nicely done. Look forward to your next post.
Tim C.
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Beautiful rifle. I love watching folks build from a plank. Looking forward to following this one.
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Mark looks pretty good so far. Building from a plank is very rewarding, thanks for posting your progress. Might I ask where did you place the center of the pan on the lock in reference to the breech plug? Steve
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Steve, I always put the center of the pan a strong 1/8" in front of the breech face. With that being said, if I use a vent it is always of a 1/4" in size. Sometimes I traditionally cone the touchole as well which may be what I do on this particular piece.
Mark Brier
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Got busy the last few weeks but finally got a little time to return to the rifle this weekend. Now just to make up springs door catch etc and clean up the sides and floor of the box cavity.
Mark Brier
(https://i.ibb.co/N7YVMLJ/IMG-3746.jpg) (https://ibb.co/V3Bjsvz)
(https://i.ibb.co/NTwsQLC/IMG-3747.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VwXtrv9)
(https://i.ibb.co/ww5XWfD/IMG-3748.jpg) (https://ibb.co/pRY8zSC)
(https://i.ibb.co/cXB8pxS/IMG-3749.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bR0vy7M)
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That’s really turning out great. I’m anxious to see the final results. Nice work for sure.
K.C.
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I really hate to mention this, and I might just be seeing it wrong, but it looks like the buttplate is pointed to the right, instead of being square with the castoff and pointing towards the junction of stock and castoff. Do I see this right?
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Had to look again, appears the centre is lined up about 1/16" right of the rear of the tang's rear corner. Might be an optical illusion.
Small thing. :)
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It's a combination of things I think, it is a touch squarish along with poor phone pictures . It does have a strong 1/4" cast off
Mark Brier
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Mark..., this is the first I’ve looked at your post, and I have to say, I agree with Darkhorse regarding the butt piece. The cast off is fine, and the position of the butt piece to the right of the center line is fine, but the comb of the butt piece should be angled to the left, pointing towards the center line, where the comb terminates into the wrist. Hope that makes sense... The center line on the top of the comb (delineating the cast off) should transit down the middle of the butt piece. That’s more than likely why the butt stock was “fighting” you so much...
Nice looking rifle, and excellent job on inletting the brass box. I look forward to seeing the completed rifle. Best,
Ed
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I really hate to mention this, and I might just be seeing it wrong, but it looks like the buttplate is pointed to the right, instead of being square with the castoff and pointing towards the junction of stock and castoff. Do I see this right?
I just noticed that as well. It is not at a 90* to the cast off line. Looks like it is 90* to the barrel center line then just shifted to the right a quarter of an inch.
AsMs
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I really hate to mention this, and I might just be seeing it wrong, but it looks like the buttplate is pointed to the right, instead of being square with the castoff and pointing towards the junction of stock and castoff. Do I see this right?
I just noticed that as well. It is not at a 90* to the cast off line. Looks like it is 90* to the barrel center line then just shifted to the right a quarter of an inch.
AsMs
Mark Brier's grand father,Tom Dawson would build a rifle like this and if he was looking at the
antique he would copy every mistake,crack and accident seen. I got the info he needed to copy
the Kenton rifle in the Huntington Museum of Art many years ago and it had all the dents and
dings in his copy that were obvious in the old one. That included a musket lock on a light,slim
rifle.Tom's Hawken copies are so precise and now aged that if you think you have one,take the
barrel out of the stock and his name and date will be plain to see on the bottom flat.
It might be that Mark is copying a relic with a glitch or two of its own.
Bob Roller
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Wallace Gusler did a article on a rifle in muzzle blast years ago that had a butt plate that rotated to follow the barrel not the comb.
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I had some time again to return to this project. Ready to make up a trigger guard and make up a ramrod and shape the rest of the stock and cut down top of the forestock along the barrel, shoot and sight in. Then time to think about cleaning everything up and do some carving. I plan on putting a sling on this the first picture shows the drill bit in the hole for the upper swivel.
Mark Brier
(https://i.ibb.co/6F0QGSX/IMG-3758.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fHdJZWD)
(https://i.ibb.co/pwDWXB7/IMG-3761.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6whvs7M)
(https://i.ibb.co/yqsNJzN/IMG-3762.jpg) (https://ibb.co/BBsfRhf)
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Coming alone very nicely. Anxious to see more!
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Got a little more time in the shop. Still a lot to do.
Mark Brier
(https://i.ibb.co/551hrmn/IMG-3785.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9qpHb6V)
(https://i.ibb.co/27h2qWv/IMG-3786.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4ZtyWK8)
(https://i.ibb.co/mHqsmX6/IMG-3787.jpg) (https://ibb.co/2jt2wsg)
(https://i.ibb.co/MSw9H9Y/IMG-3788.jpg) (https://ibb.co/W58sXsb)
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Mark..., this is the first I’ve looked at your post, and I have to say, I agree with Darkhorse regarding the butt piece. The cast off is fine, and the position of the butt piece to the right of the center line is fine, but the comb of the butt piece should be angled to the left, pointing towards the center line, where the comb terminates into the wrist. Hope that makes sense... The center line on the top of the comb (delineating the cast off) should transit down the middle of the butt piece. That’s more than likely why the butt stock was “fighting” you so much...
Nice looking rifle, and excellent job on inletting the brass box. I look forward to seeing the completed rifle. Best,
Ed
I would think, from my days with target shotguns, that this slight off set in the butt plate should make for a flat fit of the butt plate against the shoulder rather then the inside edge hitting the shoulder first (see the pic looking from the muzzle end back) . In relationship to the comb, one will only know how this "works" after shooting the gun a good bit. Perhaps the comb might need a bit of adjustment for site line up but again, that will only be determined by shooting.
I can only say, if I were building a gun which could produce some recoil, I would want a flat to shoulder butt plate regardless of cast.
Great looking rifle Mark. Cant wait to see it finished. How does it feel in the shoulder etc.
JMHO......
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Obviously I made this rifle to fit myself, It fits into the shoulder great and balanced very very well. It will have some recoil to it. Caliber is .62
Mark
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Build it to fit the shooter..... Again, really nice rifle Mark.
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Fix the butt plate
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Thanks for the concern, buttplate is staying as it is on this particular one for my own rhyme and reason.
Mark Brier
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Wow, it is really coming along nicely. The PB design looks familiar but I can't put my finger on it, maybe it is just similar to something I've seen, defiantly a Va. look.
Tim
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Hi Mark, you are doing a great job on this rifle. The orientation of the butt plate will not have much effect on how this rifle shoots or it’s recoil. The original “Woods runner” rifle that has been discussed many times on this board and copied by several of our colleagues has a butt plate that was installed just like the one you have built here. I guess that if their copy did not install the butt a little off center then they did not build a HC copy.
I built a copy of the Klette rifle in 2007 and it is not an easy build. The guard is very unique so is the entry thimble. The carving on that rifle is also quite interesting. I look forward to seeing your inturpitation of this rifle.
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Starting to draw out some carving. I don't know yet what I will keep, change, or just erase.
Mark Brier
(https://i.ibb.co/xmt5PVJ/IMG-3804.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4snN9BP)
(https://i.ibb.co/LhRBwnT/IMG-3805.jpg) (https://ibb.co/x8LwvJn)
(https://i.ibb.co/YTXWQB7/IMG-3806.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7NQzCtJ)
(https://i.ibb.co/rbHVh3r/IMG-3807.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3fcnbvZ)
(https://i.ibb.co/kMqhXwL/IMG-3808.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Pt15gP2)
(https://i.ibb.co/nm3Vqmm/IMG-3809.jpg) (https://ibb.co/h9Xnx99)
(https://i.ibb.co/fYwWSHs/IMG-3810.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mCWKB43)
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Mark, that cheek side of the butt has especially nice drawing, the upper aft part, at first glance, reminded me of a hummingbird in flight. All of the drawing for the carving is very well done. Kinda wish I had your artistic abilities.
You are coming along very well on your rifle.
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Started carving this morning, raising the grain to do the dreaded clean up.
Mark Brier
(https://i.ibb.co/7nMjSrR/IMG-3827.jpg) (https://ibb.co/K24b5VL)
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Almost done, between oilings so I thought I would give you some pictures. Still needing antiqued.
Mark Brier
(https://i.ibb.co/27RsC0Z/IMG-3852.jpg) (https://ibb.co/RptBsGj)
(https://i.ibb.co/J5dbdzy/IMG-3853.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cDvpvNC)
(https://i.ibb.co/yQBvmWB/IMG-3854.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NynDgZn)
(https://i.ibb.co/zRx2CwC/IMG-3855.jpg) (https://ibb.co/swR1crc)
(https://i.ibb.co/q7HKkPq/IMG-3856.jpg) (https://ibb.co/QpWLr1S)
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(https://i.ibb.co/VvMJ5Y9/IMG-3858.jpg) (https://ibb.co/D7wzTfW)
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I like it. Good work
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Great work. TK would be proud, I am sure.
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Turned out great, I like the carving design.
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Fix the butt plate
I did one a couple of weeks ago and it ended up not quite that far off. I had to fix it, it set my teeth on edge looking at it.
A little bending, a little filing and little inletting.
Dan
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Awesome craftsmanship. I have have been greatly enjoying this thread.
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Great work. TK would be proud, I am sure.
I am sure TK would be proud of you and that rifle.
That man had a real way of getting the attention
of those who could benefit from his vast knowledge and
advice and even after that terrible phone call in 1989
I still think of him frequently and Helen and your GG
grandfather,Raleigh Dawson.Be glad for your ancestry.
Bob Roller
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Thank you everyone. This target was the very first 5 shots out of the rifle at 50 yards. Center hold, took first 2 shots to get use to the rifle. The last 3 made one long hole. So a hunting sight of about 6 o'clock hold will be perfect. I did shoot afterward from 100 yards in sitting position and took center aim at 6" swinger and it shot true and found it's mark. .610 dia ball .010" patch and 110gr powder
Mark Brier
(https://i.ibb.co/KL2MKGw/IMG-3866.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Tb4VWTL)
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Mark:
Very well done man. She's a shooter for sure. You did great work. Enjoy.
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I like this rifle a lot. You did a great job.. thank you for taking the time to post photos especially the detail on your drawing of the carvings.
Johnny