AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: Davemuzz on January 25, 2019, 12:55:15 AM
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Aside from a T\C kit rifle I put together in 1980, my next venture into gun building was my .50 cal flintlock pistol that I did in 2010. When I built the pistol I read no build books, but simply "winged it" based upon other pistol photos.
Well, after acquiring and reading a "real" rifle build book, and finishing a Lehman build, I decide to re-do my pistol from it's current clunky, square, "fat" size, to a more slimline model. I just started the "fix." Now, I know I can't fix everything from the build errors I did the first go-around. But I believe I can make it a better looking pistol than what I have now.
Here's a few pics. The first is the "finished" 2010 version. Then my beginning of the re-do.
(https://i.imgur.com/1JyTz83.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/GgiIdRb.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/TDUdbJU.jpg)
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That is a beautiful piece of walnut. Your reshaping is coming along nicely. Looks like you have enough wood around the rear of the lock to add beavertails once you thin the lock moulding down.
Mark
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Thanks for the comment!!
Now, here's an area I need some suggestions with. When I did the original build I filed a curve\half-round on the tang. Well, with inletting in curly walnut it didn't work out at all. (Yes, I screwed up on that one) So, in an attempt to fix it, I glued in a piece of walnut in order to try and get the wood\metal fit on the curve to look nice. It didn't.
So, I'm considering cutting off the curve\half-round part off the tang, then inletting a square where the half-round went, and gluing in a square piece of walnut. (I still have a few small pieces of that wood)
Now, I know it's going to show unless I can work some magic with accraglass and brown dye and make it as unnoticeable as possible.
Any thoughts on this? (And yes.....that hole is off center. I've devised a plan to conceal that as well. New wider screw head and drill\chamfer out the offset screw....screwup.)
(https://i.imgur.com/A2BrJGe.jpg)
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I’m sure you will get some other responses. But in this case, and since it’s a rebuild, I would probably procure a new breech plug and work it down so it’s a little longer than the old one, and trinket. That would also solve the offset hole with a new redrill in the center.
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I like Top Jaw's idea. It will also give you a learning experience in fitting the plug to the barrel.
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For whatever reason, I don't know why I didn't think of that. I'll put the barrel in a barrel vice that I have and wrench off the tang. I'm the "guy" who fitted this breech plug, so a second one should be fairly easy to do.....and I've learned a lot as to how not to drill an off-center tang screw hole!!!
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Why not just cut off the tang in front of the hole and weld a longer piece back on?
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Welding would work. Except if you had ever seen me weld (last attempt was in the '70's) you would likely run.....not walk away as fast as you could. Some can weld.....some cannot. ::) :P
Edit: I clamped the barrel in my barrel vise and one good shove broke the breech plug loose. Anti-zeize is a wonderful product!! The barrel is in great shape.
Put my order in for a new breech plug. I'll do as Top Jaw stated and make the shape longer....of course, drill it dead center this time as well. ::)
Thanks for you input!!
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So, I have a Nosecap question for you guys:
On my original build, I did not install a nose cap, but now that I'm involved I'm thinking a nice brass nose cap would look good. BTW the original side plate I installed is not going back on. Instead I will inlet an "Albright style" brass side plate.
The end of my barrel, just before the wedding band measures .818" in diameter.
Now, I'm looking at a nose cap from MBS that states: "This brass round barrel pistol nosecap has a web diameter of .710 which can be opened up to fit barrels slightly over 3/4". Made by Cash Manufacturing. Inside diameter is 15/16" and is 1" long. 1/8" tall web on the face."
So.....am I reading these measurements correctly? As in the picture below. It seems to me that I should be able to inlet this cap, even if the "Web Face" measurement is the outside of the front of the cap. Am I correct?
Thanks for you help!!
(https://i.imgur.com/0Q3rnU1.jpg)
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I find this "style" of pistol looks better without a nose cap.
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If you doubt your welding ability, then you can use simpler solder techniques to fix the tang.
A couple ways to do it.
First is to cut the tang completely off from the plug portion. Make the cut horizontal with the tang and at the lower/bottom edge
of the tang thru the plug portion. That leaves you with the breech plug w/no tang and a step on the top of the plug portion that is
as deep as the tang is thick.
Now make an entire new tang to the dimensions you need to cover any excess wood cuts in the stock, extra length you want, ect.
Make it extra large from that measurement to allow for a bit of final fitting and shaping.
Bend the new tang to the shape you need to have it before the next step.
Then attach this new tang to the breech plug at that 'step' you cut on the top of the plug.
Use "Hard Solder" (we called it Silver Solder, but that isn't PC anymore I guess). Hi Temp stuff,,1200F
Or Braze it together,,pretty much the same thing,,just a bit more heat and some better strength.
The Solder joint won't show as it's underneath the tang as viewed in the assembled pistol.
>
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Another way to fix it but using Soft Solder is to Half-Lap the existing tang with a new one. That joint can be soft soldered
and will be plenty strong.
Again cutting the existing tang down BUT NOT OFF.
File about half the thickness of the tang down along it's length,,or shorten the tang a bit to make the work easier.
I would cut the tang off completely just ahead of the off center screw hole to avoid all the work of fileing the entire length.
File the remaining portion down FLAT to about 1/2 the thickness of the orig tang. Less if it leaves the tang quite thin.
Make a new tang as in the above repair. This time on the underside of it file a matching flat on the front end of it
to mate with what remains of the old tang. Make the fit as close as possible including the small step in the two parts where they abut.
Use soft solder and sweat solder the two parts together.,,(or you can Hard Solder them together as above.)
An extremely strong joint and as above will not show the soldered joint on the assembled gun.
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Thanks Dayrl for your input. I am "fishing" for suggestions on my post. It's also less work to leave it as is and square it up as opposed to inletting a nose cap.
Also a thanks to Kutter for you suggestions on the tang. However, I'm going to just order a new tang for it. I put the barrel in my barrel vise and a good tug let loose the existing tang. TOTW still sells this exact tang so, if I'm careful and with tools sharp from the strop I should have no problems.
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Dave, Here are a couple of photos of what I did on the forend tip on my son's pistol.
(https://i.ibb.co/vqKrnhc/DSC06202-640x336.jpg) (https://ibb.co/xLRcTY2)
(https://i.ibb.co/NynfXyh/DSC06212-640x197.jpg) (https://ibb.co/S37H23T)
Mark
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Another option would be to fill the gaps at the tang with scrap wood, and cover the rear portion of the tang with an inlay. IMO, the gun needs a buttcap anyway. The wood is outstanding.
Hungry Horse
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Thanks for the photo's and input. That helps in my decision making.
Do you really think a buttcap is....well, warranted\required\necessary? A "Kentucky" style. I'm not a big fan of the piece that come's up the rear of those TOTW Kentucky buttcaps. It may be easier to "better" to just peen one from flatstock. Like in the shape of the bottom half of an egg?
I purchased that wood from a wood shop in Mars Pa. They specialize in "interesting" cuts of wood.
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Here are 3 more with plain noses.
I feel that is a brass rifle-type nose cap is put on the pistol, it will render an appearance of an Italian
brass mounted reproduction that doesn't quite look right.
(https://i.ibb.co/8YJbK2X/English-Holster-Pistol-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/2ZwSnP5)
(https://i.ibb.co/3yQVQ1f/Flint-Pistol.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0jv1vqB)
(https://i.ibb.co/GRJtKZM/Taylors-Holster-Pistol3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6FZ13Kt)
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Thanks for the pic's Daryl. That first one (top) in your post is what I'm going after. It's plain, simple, no "over-decoration" and no buttcap.
IMHO with that piece of wood I want less "gingerbread" and more wood showing. 8)
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In most cases these addition to a pistol weren’t gingerbread. Buttcaps allowed a fired pistol to become a bludgeon, without risking damage to the gun. And many inlays as I mentioned were there exact for the same reason yours would be.
Hungry Horse
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Eric von Aschwege has a tutorial on his website (www.vonaschwegeflintlocks.com) on how to make a pistol buttcap from a sheet of brass.
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Dave (I think all named "Dave" should rule the world. Things would be much more stable!),
Thanks for the link. My wife was an art major in college....way back in the day....and focused on making metal jewelry. She knows all about peening flat metals into shapes.
That tutorial is done well. I guess I really need to think about a buttcap.
Dave
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Here is a shot of the buttcap on my son's pistol. I think this could easily be swaged from flat.
(https://i.ibb.co/RS6SzhW/DSC06218-640x480.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DbMb5Gn)
Mark
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Track has butt caps in brass and silver and likely steel as well. I have a couple in a parts drawer, unused.
This is a very comfortable pistol to shoot, even with heavy powder chargers(for a pistol). It rolls in the hand nicely, reducing the wrist shock.
It also has a .45 rifled barrel with cap-lock ignition.
(https://i.ibb.co/Ht1hBLj/54-English-Holster-Pistol-right-side.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fkBDqVs)
(https://i.ibb.co/B2DysmF/54-English-Holster-Pistol-left-side.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qYGN1zV)
(https://i.ibb.co/2v64TJr/Closeup-butt-54-Pistol.jpg) (https://ibb.co/m9BW3pK)
(https://i.ibb.co/YtKJqM5/DSCF0007.jpg) (https://ibb.co/sFDcMGT)
(https://i.ibb.co/M9czygS/IMG-2619.jpg) (https://ibb.co/x31nK2L)
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My pistol had a very heavy trigger pull until I changed the pivot point to the correct distance. It's a 50 caliber and shoots a heavy load very well. I generally shoot 50gr. FFF using either a Buffalo Ballett or a Hornady Pa. Conical. If I do my part, it's MOD at 50 yards.
I've taken it hunting many times, but have not had the opportunity to take a deer with it.
When this re-do is complete the pistol will be much more streamline and "thinner" than it was. It will look like a flintlock pistol should!!
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After consideration of the posters input (and thank you very much for that) I've decided to not install a nose cap, nor a buttcap. Many of the 1810-1840 flintlock pistols had neither.
However, in that same vein, many did not have much or any finial on the sides or top. I have enough wood to carve some simple finial's on the side wood panels and behind the tang. Something simple that would flow with the build.
So, I'm going to attempt to do this right....and if I don't get it right.....it will magically disappear. Or so I hope!!
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Thought I'd throw this into the thread - a scanner-shot of the pistol.
(https://i.ibb.co/0mW4NrK/54-Scanned-Pistol-zps3d105774.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hLnQ5Vc)
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Fat.....but getting skinner! Still...."on a diet". 8) (Pic on far left was the previous "done".)
(https://i.imgur.com/MTAWXna.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/5gYTLSX.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/FxQENRs.jpg)
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Dave (I think all named "Dave" should rule the world. Things would be much more stable!),
Thanks for the link. My wife was an art major in college....way back in the day....and focused on making metal jewelry. She knows all about peening flat metals into shapes.
That tutorial is done well. I guess I really need to think about a buttcap.
Dave
Heres a tutorial on how I did it. To get the left and right side of the cup symetrical, it helps to make a model and use it to make the swage block.
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=6615.0
Best regards
Rolf
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I'm now getting to the point of re-shaping the grip. I don't want to take any more wood away from where the trigger guard is inletted but I can take some thickness off the back.
So, my question is....I'm making the grip width 1.250". What should the approximate depth of the pistol grip be? (Depth = from back of grip to guard inlet. Measured in a perpendicular line from "back" to trigger guard. Is there a "standard" thickness....or even a ratio of width to thickness?
Thanks!
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There is no standard, or formula/ratio. Originals are all over the map. Make it to feel good in your hand. I'm sure that's what the smiths of the 18th C did.
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Thank you! I believe the profile is good....but I need to remove more wood "at the 4 corners" of the round.....if you understand my saying. It's to "blocky" when I last left it. >:(
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Workin on the grip.....not there yet!!
(https://i.imgur.com/cEU7hoJl.jpg)
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Careful you don't take to much off the flat parts and when rounded back again, the grip becomes too small.
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Thanks Daryl. I filed down the grips (flat part) to get the width that I wanted. 1.250" I then began to file another flat on the inside corners as the existing grip was to bulky.
I can never be reminded to much to "don't over do it". OTOH....I don't want to end up with a bulky grip again. I think I have a good plan of attack this time.
BTW, I bought a new breech plug and via a grinder for the bulk stuff, and then a tedious filing with a good polish when I got the new breech plug fitted to the barrel. I inletted the tang to a straight back and it worked out well. For the offset screw I drilled and glued in a dowel rod to get rid of the offset screw hole, and then re-drilled a new tang hole and screw hole. Worked out well.
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I fitted the new tang.....even drilled the hole center this time!! I'm going with the square back tang as this walnut is somewhat picky with small cuts. Even after a fresh stropping of my chisels. This looks better.....not perfect, but better. I am now in the process of removing that "block top" look from the first go-around.
(https://i.imgur.com/A2BrJGel.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/EkIWiTMl.jpg)
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Slowly getting closer to where I want. But still much work yet to do.
(https://i.imgur.com/x6LaHOv.jpg)
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A question for you pistol build guys is this: I currently do NOT have a screw installed in the grip section of the trigger guard. The guard is pinned in two places and that secures it quite well. However, I'm thinking of installing a screw through the trigger guard on the grip side as that should (I think?) help in providing more strength to the grip itself.
I know that when I load this pistol, I never place the pistol grip on a hard surface when seating a PRB, for my concern of placing continued stress on the grip wood, which may ultimately lead to a cracked grip.
Any thoughts or input on this would be appreciated.
Thank you.
Dave
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Dave,
I can’t help you with your above question, but just wanted to say that the pistol is looking so much better. Good work! It’s starting to look slim!
Can’t wait to see the result.
Norm.
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That is coming along very nicely! The new tang looks good as well! Do you still have a little bit of a hump just behind the end of the tang, or is it just the photo?
Mark
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Yes - cleaning up that hump by bending down the end of the tang and re-inletting it should clean up that inlet as well.
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Thank you for your comments!!
Hump?? ;D Yeah....the hump hasn't met the file yet. It's next. I'm working on the tang to side plate and then the hump is next.
I've got some ugly wood to metal gaps along the tangs side and one small one at the rear. I'm going to insert some wood slivers to close those gaps as well.
I still have a ways to go to get it where I think it needs to be....but I have time and I'm not rushing anything.
I did decide to install a screw as the original Kentucky's had them, and I think it will help or assist in the strength of the grip.
Dave
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Getting "closer".....AKA...I can see the finish line!!!
I took a few pics of the pistol completely re-assembled. At this point, I have a few minor things to do. Sanding off where my big paw prints got some dabs of Accuraglass (yes.....bedding was a must here) and I need to trim a few pins and patina the screw heads.
The pistol functions great....in fact better than before. Before the fix the lock plate was lower on one end than the other and when I tightened the screws it would bind the mainspring and the frizzen would not completely open because not enough force was striking it. That problem is now solved.
I also think my sights are much too high. The "new" front sight in brass has made the height really stand out. I'm going to file the rear sight down by .100, and accordingly the front sight down by the same amount. I did leave about .050 more on the front sight that the original front sight.....just to have some wiggle room to file\adjust it.
I know it's far from perfect. OTOH it's my fix of my first build. Better than it was but not perfection. I like it even with all it's flaws!!! I'll post the final when I have several coats of finish on it.
(https://i.imgur.com/dEozRJql.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/vr7i30vl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/5qLfY6Kl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/XoI9Dsil.jpg)
Here are a few pics of the original build for comparison:
(https://i.imgur.com/ZU9T7fml.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/Viyjqy7l.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/hT4LiHal.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/4I8pGfll.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/B9Ygrmol.jpg)
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Looking great!! I'm enjoying watching your progress.
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Looking very nice. Well done. I would round the end of the forend a little more to take off some of the squareness.
Mark
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As Penn Dutchman said, take out the squareness of the bottom of the fore-end.
Norm.
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Chowmi.......are you looking at the pictures at the top.....the "after" pic's....or at the bottom....the "before pics"? The finial at the front of the lock plate use to be about 1". It's now maybe 1/8".
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Chowmi.......are you looking at the pictures at the top.....the "after" pic's....or at the bottom....the "before pics"? The finial at the front of the lock plate use to be about 1". It's now maybe 1/8".
You are correct. I wrote it, then looked at it again and tried to edit it and delete that bit before you saw it!
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Ok. I am now looking at the “new” pictures, I’m pretty sure...
Have a look at the bottom of the stock between the front of the trigger guard and the rr entry pipe. I think that needs some work.
Sorry, dinner is calling, no time to elaborate.......
Norm.
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Now that I stare at the pic of the bottom I think I see what you're saying. That area between the PG and the RR entry pipe could use a little more slimming. Also, staring at the pics I see the side plate finial needs a little better shaping to match the lock plate side.
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DONE!! Perfect? Not so much. I had mistakes to "start" with and I attempted to fix those that I could or desired to. It's now a much better pistol than it was. It's also a hunting pistol which means it will get banged up a bit from going thru what I put my hunting firearms into. I'm pleased with it. I only had time to post these 3 pic's this am.
(https://i.imgur.com/rh40B6V.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/DzbleVx.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/CUeAlMh.jpg)
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That looks a lot better, Dave.
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Very Nice!
Mark
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Thanks! Things I did:
--Filed width and depth of overall stock. Fixed and attempted fix of wood\metal gaps.
--Cut length of side plate and added 2 straight cuts in rear part.
--Refinished metal this time using Kiblers Patina solution. Very easy solution to use.
--Reduced height of rear sight and installed proper brass front blade sight.
--Installed trigger guard screw through guard near the bottom of grip. This should\may help in keeping handgrip one piece.
--Reshaped and re-inletted rear RR pipe.
--Shaped new hickory RR
--Installed new tang
--Refinish using 4 coats of Kiblers stock finish.
There are still wood\metal gaps that are obvious to the builders eye. Some I could not fix without them looking worse than the gap. However, after everything, it looks better (I think) and I still must remind myself that after another 5 to 8 years of hunting use....this will likely be the best it will ever look. ;)
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Been following your progress on this pistol from the beginning. I think you did a good job and it looks great in the pictures.
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Close up pics of "done for me"!!!
(https://i.imgur.com/0aP7uhQ.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/mPX8r73.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/aH7hsR5.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/j6gVjjp.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/dq5wy3M.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/2mOxE5L.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/hIilYj4.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/G5ei4Bw.jpg)
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Looks great, Dave. You've done a fine job on your pistol.
Bob