AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: Daryl Pelfrey on January 25, 2019, 03:53:47 PM
-
I'm planning on building a fusil but putting a turkey choke barrel from TOW on it. Anyone familiar with these barrels? Suggestions. Plan on using it for squirrel and turkey.Thanks
-
I'm planning on building a fusil but putting a turkey choke barrel from TOW on it. Anyone familiar with these barrels? Suggestions. Plan on using it for squirrel and turkey.Thanks
They suck. You want a barrel with jug choke, not modern taper choke.
-
Mike, could you elaborate please. Is it because of loading issues or performance?
-
Mike, could you elaborate please. Is it because of loading issues or performance?
Both. I watched guys on the trap line at F-ship for years struggle trying to get cards and wads down a modern choke or screw in chokes. once you mess up your wads you mess up your pattern.
-
Makes sense. Next question; how about patched round ball in jugged barrel? Who can jug my 20 ga. Colerain cyl. bore barrel?
-
I find one of the advantages with a jug choke is the ability to load and shoot patched roundball.
Kevin
-
I had Danny Caywood do one and Lowell Tennyson in Iowa do another. Not sure if Lowell is still doing them. Happy with both. :)
Dave
-
I've had very good luck with the Colerain turkey choked barrel and think its a great option for a dedicated turkey gun or swatting squirrels.....
Here are some patterns that I've shot out of it with a 1 3/4oz load of nickle plated #5's
The brown paper is at 30 yds and that circle is 10"...... the turkey target is 20yds. I'm not sure I've seen a jug choke compare to that pattern density. It's a head knocker for sure.
Not bad to load with thin overshot cards and soft lubed wool felt wads. A bit of pain to clean, but for a couple shots per year the pattern density gains are worth it IMO.
(https://i.ibb.co/qjQCyLy/Fowler-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9g5h8m8)
(https://i.ibb.co/cbjDp0G/Fowler-3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7gq2TPw)
(https://i.ibb.co/hDvrnK8/Turkey9-Copy-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3BHV80h)
-
(https://i.ibb.co/qjQCyLy/Fowler-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9g5h8m8)
That's a pattern a guy could trust.
-
1 ¾ oz of shot in a 20 ga? Of course you get good density at 30yds.
Pushing that 20 ga pretty hard. That's a load I'd use in a 10ga.
-
That's a really light dose of powder as well for that much shot. As long as it kills I guess you can't argue with it.
-
In my 10 bore, that load would have a velocity of about 978 FPS.
-
yeah, in a 10ga, that shot load and 130 g is a good 10 ga load. But a 20 ? Wow.
-
That's a really light dose of powder as well for that much shot. As long as it kills I guess you can't argue with it.
Mike,
When I was testing the loads I was putting heavy Campbell's Chunky soup cans on the target backer behind the paper and those nickle pellets out of that 3F / 95gr load were actually blowing right through both sides of the cans at 30yds.
Even with that, I WAS thinking like you that it has to be right near the line for penetration based upon velocity..... I actually HAVE changed the load a bit since then I just don't have any pics.
I settled on 105grs of powder behind 1 5/8 oz of shot. A little lighter shot load over a touch heavier powder to give it just a little more downrange snot for the same patterns.
The components are very light too. Just thin paper overshot cards and light lubed 1/8" wool felt.
Works for me......It's bopping them! 8)
(https://i.ibb.co/5YcvPcw/Turkey7.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tZCc9CF)
(https://i.ibb.co/QMWPhKh/Turkey8-Copy-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/89yrG7G)
-
Big birds. That is a big charge for a 20bore , for sure.
I haven't developed a turkey load for mine - maybe a fun experimentation time this summer, coming up.
I really should have a load for them.
-
Is that much powder and shot considered safe in a 20? Especially 95-105 grs 3 f behind 1 5/8 shot. What is considered a heavy unsafe load?
-
I used the 100 gr. FF and 2 oz. of shot load listed on the Colerain website to flatten this one. Killed a fall turkey at 38 measured yards the previous year. It's like anything else, when you learn what it likes and how to load it, it will work.
(https://i.ibb.co/K7X2gSL/turkey.jpg) (https://ibb.co/HYVty3x)
-
Is that much powder and shot considered safe in a 20? Especially 95-105 grs 3 f behind 1 5/8 shot. What is considered a heavy unsafe load?
Nobody knows. Most of the barrels we use are made from 12L14, which is not considered to be an optimal steel for gun barrels, at least by modern engineering standards. As far as I have been able to determine, there has not been any scientific testing of heavy loads, or light loads for that matter, with 12L14.
Maybe someone knows how much pressure is produced with these loads, but so far I have been unable to find these data. To paraphrase a platitude, you pulls your trigger and takes your chances.
-
Smallpatch – We’re old guys, so we think of square loads for shotguns. These loads were optimized for wing shooting, so 7/8 ounce in a 20 gauge, 1 ounce in a 16 and so forth. But that is for shooting at three dimensional targets. Shooting at two dimensional targets, such as paper or a turkey head is another story altogether. Some factors that are important in shooting flying birds, such as shot column stringing, weak fringes etc. don’t apply to turkeys.
So, the proof is in the data. Two ounces of shot in a 20 gauge would be a poor choice for wing shooting, but it seems to work out OK on turkey targets. The big thing to me would be recoil in a 6 pound gun. I find my 10 ½ pound 10 gauge unpleasant with 1 ¾ ounces of shot and 120 grains of powder. I have no interest in shooting 2 ounce loads out of a light gun.
-
I settled on 105grs of powder behind 1 5/8 oz of shot.
That seems more reasonable and probably shoots a good pattern. Using thin overshots and 1/8" wool wonder wads will certainly help you get it loaded. I can't knock your results.
I patterned a customers 10 bore with a full jug and a 50" barrel, the gun weighed right at 8lbs. I was shooting 140gr 3f and 2 5/8 oz #4. Shot it 8 times @ 50 yards @ a turkey head target. Dead turk every time. I was sore for a week after those 8 shots. :P
-
I settled on 105grs of powder behind 1 5/8 oz of shot.
That seems more reasonable and probably shoots a good pattern. Using thin overshots and 1/8" wool wonder wads will certainly help you get it loaded. I can't knock your results.
I patterned a customers 10 bore with a full jug and a 50" barrel, the gun weighed right at 8lbs. I was shooting 140gr 3f and 2 5/8 oz #4. Shot it 8 times @ 50 yards @ a turkey head target. Dead turk every time. I was sore for a week after those 8 shots. :P
Mike what is considered a heavy load for a 20 ?
-
I looked at the Colerain site. The loads listed are not their recommendations but rather loads their customers have used.
That being said, I doubt Colerain would publish a load that is unsafe in their barrels.
By increasing the shot charge you increase the pressure. If you increase pressure you increase velocity, also recoil.
I wouldn't want to shoot shoot such a load out of my Frenchie.
-
I settled on 105grs of powder behind 1 5/8 oz of shot.
That seems more reasonable and probably shoots a good pattern. Using thin overshots and 1/8" wool wonder wads will certainly help you get it loaded. I can't knock your results.
I patterned a customers 10 bore with a full jug and a 50" barrel, the gun weighed right at 8lbs. I was shooting 140gr 3f and 2 5/8 oz #4. Shot it 8 times @ 50 yards @ a turkey head target. Dead turk every time. I was sore for a week after those 8 shots. :P
Mike what is considered a heavy load for a 20 ?
Oh, I don't know. Depends on how big your breech is and how well your gun is stocked. I'd say 1 1/2oz and an equal volume of powder is a pretty heavy load for a 20 bore. Remember, the larger the bore the less pressure. Small bores create higher pressure. So, an 1 1/2oz load in a 10 bore is going to have far less pressure than the same load in a 20 bore.
-
Shooting fat charges of 3F in a 20 gauge seems like a pretty dangerous move to me. Especially if the barrel is choked. I shoot 2F in my trade gun now but prefer 1F when I can get it.
Hungry Horse
-
Choked at the muzzle or not does not make ANY difference. The pressure is dropping very quickly as the charge heads out the tube. It is always more than the pressure in the tube of the air compressing in front of the ball, along with the stmospheric pressure, which is why it actually exits the tube, but anywhere near what it was at the breech, is impossible. A blip at the muzzle end caused by a choke, will not make enough difference to be noticed and certainly will not increase the pressure to what it was when the charge first went off.
If you view any pressure curve charts for black powder (or even Pyrodex), they are all very much the same. They peak before 2" of ball or shot charge movement, then rapid decline the rest of the way out, to where muzzle pressure is minuscule in comparison, mere fractions of what it was at peak.
The early peak then rapid decline is why barrels can be tapered, sometimes to very thin muzzles.
-
I settled on 105grs of powder behind 1 5/8 oz of shot.
That seems more reasonable and probably shoots a good pattern. Using thin overshots and 1/8" wool wonder wads will certainly help you get it loaded. I can't knock your results.
I patterned a customers 10 bore with a full jug and a 50" barrel, the gun weighed right at 8lbs. I was shooting 140gr 3f and 2 5/8 oz #4. Shot it 8 times @ 50 yards @ a turkey head target. Dead turk every time. I was sore for a week after those 8 shots. :P
Mike what is considered a heavy load for a 20 ?
Oh, I don't know. Depends on how big your breech is and how well your gun is stocked. I'd say 1 1/2oz and an equal volume of powder is a pretty heavy load for a 20 bore. Remember, the larger the bore the less pressure. Small bores create higher pressure. So, an 1 1/2oz load in a 10 bore is going to have far less pressure than the same load in a 20 bore.
My barrel is a TVM jack garner (not sure of maker) .995 at breech in the octagon part and tapers in the round to the muzzle with a muzzle thickness of .09. I don't want my trial charges to get in the danger zone. kick has been very light so far with the charges I've tried .mostly 90 gr 2f with round ball of .600 and 70 to 90 gr. of 2f with 11/4 oz of shot. are these loads considered light to moderate and could I go up to 1.5 oz shot for turkey with 90 -100 gr.2f These loads are measured and not wieght.
-
I wouldn't give any advice with a 20 bore barrel that is an inch or less for these large loads. Any of these large loads you have read about here for 20 bores I personally would want at least 1 1/8 breech. All of the Carolina guns I have built I'd recommend a maximum 70gr load with a maximum of 1 1/8oz shot. Hoyt has built all of my Carolina gun barrels and they have a 1" breech and are of known quality and breeching. You're on your own for that .995 breech and unknown maker and unknown quality barrel.
-
I love my Chamber's English fusil, with it's 1 1/4 in breech . Balance is wonderful. I have had wonderful experiences shooting 28 bore through to 10 bore guns, and will always opt for the larger bores if more power or shot is required. Shot stringing can be a problem if shooting too large for the bore shot loads. As mentioned, this isn't apparent with stationary targets , but is still something to consider. Of all the bore sizes, the 28 has always surprised me in terms of it's performance in the field. When looking at shot stringing in the smaller bores [ heavy shot loads ] I think in terms of the possibility of the game [ turkey] being dead before the last of the shot has even reached it . I like larger bores because I get good shot filled larger patterns than with smaller bores. Hope this makes sense.
-
I measured the Colerain TC barrel. It is 1 1/8 inch at the breech. I agree with those who dislike recoil. My gun weighs a tick over 7 pounds and load development was a bit interesting. But, I wanted a gun capable of taking a big gobbler with authority. I rarely remember the gun going off when shooting at game. It was purpose built and serves that purpose quite well.
(https://i.ibb.co/nLxgHSw/turkey-target.jpg) (https://ibb.co/KrT0MH5)
-
Big bore guns run less pressure than small bore guns with equal charges and projectile weight. 1.5 ounces of shot and equal volume of powder is my upper limit for a 20 gauge.
-
I wouldn't give any advice with a 20 bore barrel that is an inch or less for these large loads. Any of these large loads you have read about here for 20 bores I personally would want at least 1 1/8 breech. All of the Carolina guns I have built I'd recommend a maximum 70gr load with a maximum of 1 1/8oz shot. Hoyt has built all of my Carolina gun barrels and they have a 1" breech and are of known quality and breeching. You're on your own for that .995 breech and unknown maker and unknown quality barrel.
The maker of my barrel is Colerain accorrding to supplier with 1" breech. Would this be a carolina gun barrel?
-
Colerain does not make a Carolina gun profile. It must be custom made, Hoyt makes all of mine. But, one inch is still one inch, you don't want a Carolina styled barrel for heavy turk loads, these are really light barrels, they weigh right at 3 lbs and make into a 6lbs gun. A 20 bore with a 1" breech isn't intended for heavy loads. I haven't made many 20 bore turk guns. When I did I had a custom barrel made with a 1 1/8" to 1 3/16" breech with a rapid taper. Always with lots of jug of course. The last one I made would shoot 1 1/4oz shoot ALL in a 18" circle @ 20- 25 yards. the owner settled on a 1 5/8oz load.
All the above is just my opinion of course. Other folks may do things entirely different and may be more comfortable with a 1" breech and heavy loads than I am.
-
You guys got me wondering so I measured mine. 1.115" at the breech. I use 75gr. 2F and an 82gr. (3dram) powder measure of shot with all the standard wads, hard card over powder, 1/2" lubed donnaconna wad, then shot then thin "B" wad. Shoots like a modern modified choke & powders clays, when I'm "ON".
Havne't shot a living thing with it - yet.
-
Colerain does not make a Carolina gun profile. It must be custom made, Hoyt makes all of mine. But, one inch is still one inch, you don't want a Carolina styled barrel for heavy turk loads, these are really light barrels, they weigh right at 3 lbs and make into a 6lbs gun. A 20 bore with a 1" breech isn't intended for heavy loads. I haven't made many 20 bore turk guns. When I did I had a custom barrel made with a 1 1/8" to 1 3/16" breech with a rapid taper. Always with lots of jug of course. The last one I made would shoot 1 1/4oz shoot ALL in a 18" circle @ 20- 25 yards. the owner settled on a 1 5/8oz load.
All the above is just my opinion of course. Other folks may do things entirely different and may be more comfortable with a 1" breech and heavy loads than I am.
MIke you are light years ahead of me in experience with these things --So I'm betting on your thinking!!!
-
They suck. You want a barrel with jug choke, not modern taper choke.
[/quote]
Mike,
What exactly is a jug choke. I know what the turkey chokes look like tapered breech to muzzle inside. But what does a jug choke look like inside.
AsMs
-
They suck. You want a barrel with jug choke, not modern taper choke.
Mike,
What exactly is a jug choke. I know what the turkey chokes look like tapered breech to muzzle inside. But what does a jug choke look like inside.
AsMs
[/quote]
Ditto. Can someone post a comarison diagram please?
-
A jug choke has a portion of the bore removed near the muzzle. The shot expands into that more open portion, then is restricted back to bore size. That energy transfers into a pattern "better than a cylinder bore".
My experience is I lost about 10yds by going from a Colerain turkey choke to a jug choke. 130+ pellets in a 10" circle with the colerain at 30yds and 85ish with the jug....and that's shooting a wide range of combination of shot, powder, wads etc
Nice thing with the jug is the ability to shoot round balls.
-
https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&id=0BB5C217911F83A3105EE78503B9D6FF4DBDCD35&thid=OIP.FCesXfsqVE7aear-6kOwsAHaBh&mediaurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hallowellco.com%2Fchoke-darwing---recessed.jpg&exph=309&expw=1500&q=jug+choke&selectedindex=3&qpvt=jug+choke&ajaxhist=0&vt=0&eim=1,2,6
All jugs are not created equal, depends on who does them and what they know.
-
They suck. You want a barrel with jug choke, not modern taper choke.
Mike,
What exactly is a jug choke. I know what the turkey chokes look like tapered breech to muzzle inside. But what does a jug choke look like inside.
AsMs
Ditto. Can someone post a comarrison diagram please?
[/quote]
Not quite. This diagram will show cross section prints of the various chokes.
"G" is a jug choke.
"E" is a standard choke, Euro version with end-choke (between the tightest more, to the muzzle) of constant size, the length of the shot column.
"B" and "F" are standard chokes, US versions. There is some overlap into the Euro version in some US chokes.
https://www.google.com/search?q=Choke+boring&tbm=isch&source=univ&client=firefox-b&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi23-eJ-KDgAhXKwlQKHSNvDN0QsAR6BAgDEAE&biw=1760&bih=886#imgrc=r0HhL8E9g7AN4M:
This one, appears to be the ultimate Jug Choke.
https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&id=A8190146F756D12558AF82F8CE5A1DFC0476C760&thid=OIP.-DOmo7qHpqiTDO9A-DWdaQHaBe&exph=120&expw=600&q=jug+choke&selectedindex=9&qpvt=jug+choke&ajaxhist=0&vt=0&eim=1,2,6&ccid=%2BDOmo7qH&simid=608002647107898995&mediaurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.muzzleloaders.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2014%2F07%2Fjug-shotgun-choke.jpg