AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Contemporary Longrifle Collecting => Topic started by: snapper on January 26, 2019, 05:35:53 PM
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This week I was at the shot show in Vegas with a few others representing the NMLRA.
One of the companies we stopped to visit with was Pedersoli.
I do not own any Pedersoli's, but I have always been a little amazed at the fact that as a company they are not afraid to come out with new models and the large number of different ML that they make.
We met with the owners and they were very nice and enthusiastic people. Lots of passion for what they do.
I am most familiar with the Pedersoli Gibbs long range ML. These are the only commercially available long range rifle available today and in the hands of a good shooter right out of the box can win matches.
I was also a little surprised at how interested they were of our opinions on their ML and things that we would change.
I was able to handle the new SxS flint shotgun.
I know that recently there was some comments on this shotgun, so what dont you like about it?
Keeping in mind that it is mass produced, fairly inexpensive and not a custom built piece.
Fleener
(https://i.ibb.co/Ry1cFZG/pedersoli-sxs.jpg) (https://ibb.co/PQRgL3s)
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Hard to say with out having it in hand. I see it being popular on the skeet range. What is the cost? Does it work? Does it handle like a clunker?
I own Italian cowboy guns and they are pretty nice guns. I have never been impressed with Italian made flint guns, they are always just a little hincky in appearance and performance. I'd like to be pleasantly surprised. Just from the little picture I can see the checkering would be better left off and a shotgun styled trigger guard would be better choice. The cocks seem a long way from the pan if they are at rest.
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There is a LOT they could have done to make it Truly English as they state it is but I believe its a little late to ask for input after its already in production!?,,,,In the production guns they did change the guard, at least that's what is shown on their web site. The first thing that stands out is the HIDEOUS "checkering",,, ENGLISH?, I think NOT, maybe more Italian or French, ....next are the locks,,, Hmmm would have been better using locks like on their Mortimer shotgun,,, then there is the "floral" engraving,,, ENGLISH?,,, Doesn't look like it to me! If I had it in hand I might find some other problems,, Here is the question I would have asked Pedersoli representatives. If you want to replicate a truly "English" piece then buy an ORIGINAL English piece (or two or three) to study....well you asked,,,IMHO,,, ED
https://www.davide-pedersoli.com/scheda-prodotto.asp/l_en/idpr_429/rifles-muzzle-loading-side-by-side-shotguns-side-by-side-flintlock.html (https://www.davide-pedersoli.com/scheda-prodotto.asp/l_en/idpr_429/rifles-muzzle-loading-side-by-side-shotguns-side-by-side-flintlock.html)
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I apologize, the way I wrote the original post I can certainly understand why you would think there were soliciting comments on the SxS shotgun, and that was not the case.
The had a prototype long range rifle that they were looking for comments on and since 3 of us were long range shooters we were more than happy to give them our opinions and were very honest.
I agree that on some of their guns they leave too much wood. I was happy to see that they are rust browning some guns now. Looks much better than a hot blue.
The checkering on the shotgun I dont like either.
Fleener
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The locks are attached I an odd way. A machine screw in the rear and a wood screw I the front. :o It's almost as if they have never seen a SXS flint gun before. ::) Anybody know how much they're getting for these?
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There is a LOT they could have done to make it Truly English as they state it is but I believe its a little late to ask for input after its already in production!?,,,,In the production guns they did change the guard, at least that's what is shown on their web site. The first thing that stands out is the HIDEOUS "checkering",,, ENGLISH?, I think NOT, maybe more Italian or French, ....next are the locks,,, Hmmm would have been better using locks like on their Mortimer shotgun,,, then there is the "floral" engraving,,, ENGLISH?,,, Doesn't look like it to me! If I had it in hand I might find some other problems,, Here is the question I would have asked Pedersoli representatives. If you want to replicate a truly "English" piece then buy an ORIGINAL English piece (or two or three) to study....well you asked,,,IMHO,,, ED
https://www.davide-pedersoli.com/scheda-prodotto.asp/l_en/idpr_429/rifles-muzzle-loading-side-by-side-shotguns-side-by-side-flintlock.html (https://www.davide-pedersoli.com/scheda-prodotto.asp/l_en/idpr_429/rifles-muzzle-loading-side-by-side-shotguns-side-by-side-flintlock.html)
They are a poor copy and very expensive not a patch of the original
Feltwad
A Stand Of Originals
(https://i.ibb.co/Yb1b34h/100-1731.jpg) (https://ibb.co/g6f63bJ)
(https://i.ibb.co/HFHp8wS/100-1732.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zn4Hv9M)
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Not sure that they are stating that it is a copy of an English shotgun. Is that listed anywhere in their description? I did not find that.
Fleener
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Here's a review of the shotgun by Dennis Adler. He states in his review the gun is French inspired. MSRP is....sit down.....$1700.
https://www.tactical-life.com/firearms/shotguns/pedersoli-classic-side-side-shotgun/
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In another part of my shooting life, I've had a great interest in competition shotguns. I don't dabble in them anymore, preferring to spend my range time with flintlock longrifles instead but when I heard about this one, I was interested enough to give it a look.
I'm also not seeing any claim of "English" inspiration. The checkering is AWFUL. I would like to have well executed fine line checkering on a side-by-side but in this case if they weren't going to do that, then I'm with Mike... I'd prefer they had done nothing.
As to the gun itself, once again harking back to my days shooting mass quantities of registered NSSA Skeet, ATA Trap, and Live Pigeon (Flyer) competitions...I would definitely prefer longer barrels than the 27 9/16ths they offer on this one.
I haven't kept up with Pedersoli flintlock offerings so I'll defer to someone who has experience with their locks to comment on that aspect of this new one. A well built reliable lock is the heart and soul of ANY flintlock firearm. If their locks fall down on that note, even a little bit...I'd stay away from this new gun at any price. That said....if their current production locks are decent and someone doesn't mind the barrel length...the price I'm seeing ($1700.00) seems quite reasonable, even cheap for a well regulated side-by-side. We don't know about L.O.P., drop at comb, drop at heel, or cast (if any) so it's not possible to even guess about fit, which is particularly critical in choosing a shotgun. In my experience with shotguns across the spectrum from off the shelf Remingtons to custom built Italian competition guns, if you want the best results they aren't something you can buy off the internet without handling in person (even shooting a few rounds) before making a purchase decision. With that said then, I'll reserve judgement on this one until I've at least had my hands on one.
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I apologize, the way I wrote the original post I can certainly understand why you would think there were soliciting comments on the SxS shotgun, and that was not the case.
The had a prototype long range rifle that they were looking for comments on and since 3 of us were long range shooters we were more than happy to give them our opinions and were very honest.
I agree that on some of their guns they leave too much wood. I was happy to see that they are rust browning some guns now. Looks much better than a hot blue.
The checkering on the shotgun I dont like either.
Fleener
WHICH long range rifle did the new prototype represent?
Bob Roller
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Bob
They had something like the Gibbs, but with a double set triggers. The rear peep sight was really bad IMO. The stock on this rifle was just a plastic wood looking thing, since it was just a prototype.
As you know double set triggers are not normally found on a English Sporting rifle. Some matches they are not allowed.
I am not sure, but I think the price point would be cheaper than the Gibbs. We tried to impress on them that the rear sights should be optional, since most serious LR shooters would pull them off and put good ones on it.
Fleener
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Fleener,
As I was reading your response to Bob, as soon as I read your opinion of the rear sight I had exactly the same thought you did. Any serious shooter will replace whatever they put on it. Likewise someone not trying to wring out the very best reproducible performance from their rear sight won’t care or even know the difference.
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It seems the Pedersoli guns offer an affordable, ready-made product for the hunters and target shooters who might not want to drop a mint or wait half a year or (much) longer to get the rifle in their hands. I own one of their pistols and it is an excellent, incredibly accurate gun. One thing is for sure, Pedersoli sells more guns than all of us combined on this board. They are sold throughout the Earth and they make a vast variety of guns with many different appeals. No they are not perfect in their details or performance, but overall, they are very serviceable guns and they make some extremely nice models that have one many competitions. I have conversed with their customer service department and they sent me a part (that I broke on accident) for free of charge all the way from Italy, and they are receptive to the shooter’s desires and requests, not true for most of the Italian makers.
These guns are not made for people like Mike Brooks, they are made for the masses and there is nothing wrong with that inherently.
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I have a Pedersoli Brown Bess and I think it is just fine. Pedersoli is making production guns. This double barrel shotgun is likely just fine. Pedersoli is making production guns. May not be the most historically accurate gun you can get, but it seems to be a nice shotgun that you can go pick up at the store for a reasonable price. I think that there will be a lot of guys that have a great time with one of these.
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Here in the UK I cannot see the Pedersoli sxs flintlock shotgun been a hit for several reasons , first they are far to expensive , second they are a poor copy of the original , third there are too many originals on the market at a lot less price.
Feltwad
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Quite a few years ago, when I had a licensed gun shop in OK, their rep and I were chatting. One of my customers wanted a long-barreled Sharps - but he wanted to buy a Pedersoli action and barrel, and for me to make the stock, fit the hardware stuff. Never happened, as my customer refused to pay upfront for what he wanted.
But the rep had a "Kentucky" percussion rifle that had been their show display, and was showing some signs of aging - cracks, bumps, etc. Well, I liked the look and the feel, and have always had a big soft spot for ML firearms, so I got their "never fired" rifle for $200 - sales price at the time was over $700. I have never regretted it.
Sure, the "Long" part was a wee short, being 35 7/16". But that rifle is comfortable to shoot (.45 cal), and is very accurate. First time I took it to the range, from prone at 100 yd. measured, I fired a 3-leaf clover, 1/2" to the left of the center "X".
No, it is not period correct. But, it fits me nicely, is easy to care for, and shoots better than I do. I believe that they provide what their customers like, and for me, do not even pretend to be original.
Might send the stock to Mike Brooks for some carving..... LOL!
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Imho, they are asking way too much money for this gun - as I see it pictured and in the video. Yikes.
As Feltwad notes, one would be much better off to attend or have someone attend an auction in England
and get a REAL SxS flinter for 1/2 that amount. The locks appear to be flintlock versions of the cap-locks
that were on my SxS .58 Kodiak- poor at best, but certainlyworkable in cap-lock.
The cock position in the photographs is identical to the video by David P. Thus, they appear in the fired position. Yikes!
Would it not have been 'just as easy" to make proper locks or tumblers? Probably not, easier to use THEIR existing designs.
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Here in the UK I cannot see the Pedersoli sxs flintlock shotgun been a hit for several reasons , first they are far to expensive , second they are a poor copy of the original , third there are too many originals on the market at a lot less price.
Feltwad
Feltwad, I have always wanted a double barrel SXS flintlock shotgun. I just want a plain jane shoot able flintlock SXS in 12, 16 or 20 gauge. The Pedersoli does nothing for me and especially at that price. Where or how would one find the originals in the UK for a more reasonable price than the Pedersoli? And then with gun laws as they are would it even be possible for someone like me from the US to purchase one at auction and have it shipped over here? Then of course shipping and import taxes...… Sounds like Mission Impossible to me.
Dave
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You can find shootable originals here in the states for $2400 sometimes less. I sold my 18 bore several years ago for $2600. Regretted it ever since.
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Mike, I have been looking but they are not very common and usually quite expensive. I liked the sounds of Feltwads comment but realize buying an original one from across the pond will not be easy or cheap even if it is possible. Too bad I wasn't into flintlocks when I was a working guy in the 90's as for about two years I spent two weeks of every month in Portsmouth. On the ride from Heathrow to Portsmouth I used to see tons of pheasants. Would have loved to hunt there but never checked into it to see if I even would be allowed. Besides if I wanted to spend $2400+ on a gun I would buy one of your beauties. 8)
Dave
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Mike, I have been looking but they are not very common and usually quite expensive. I liked the sounds of Feltwads comment but realize buying an original one from across the pond will not be easy or cheap even if it is possible. Too bad I wasn't into flintlocks when I was a working guy in the 90's as for about two years I spent two weeks of every month in Portsmouth. On the ride from Heathrow to Portsmouth I used to see tons of pheasants. Would have loved to hunt there but never checked into it to see if I even would be allowed. Besides if I wanted to spend $2400+ on a gun I would buy one of your beauties. 8)
Dave
Has for exporting a antique to the States I cannot say what the price would be my advice get in touch with auction houses such has Holts they will give you some idea if you bought one from their auction .
Feltwad
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Thanks.
Dave
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Although it is not a flintlock, I recently picked up an English double by Powell of Birmingham. It is in 90+% with 38 inch 20 gauge tubes.It smokes clays. The company has been in continual business since 1803 and took the time to talk with me and feels they made the gun around 1850. Although it is a cap gun it is a quality piece with a pedigree, Powell locks were models for some of the finest English gun makers, and I was able to secure it for $550. Double that for a flint gun and you are still well below the Pedersoli, triple it and and you are still below them. They are available, you just have to look hard.
Mark
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Thanks Mark. I am looking. May prove to be worth the trouble.
Dave
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Has for exporting a antique to the States I cannot say what the price would be my advice get in touch with auction houses such has Holts they will give you some idea if you bought one from their auction .
Feltwad
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There are a number of guys in the States buy antique rifles and shotguns through Holt's Auctions & get the guns shipped 'home'. These guys (that I know of) reside on the www.nitroexpress.com forum.
From what I have seen of very early shotguns, auctions in Europe sell them for peanuts in comparison to what those same guns "get" over here. Past DoubleGunJounals is a good place to 'see' these guns and what they "went for". i see prices that would be from about $600.00 US to about $1,500 US for really nicely kept' guns. The odd one will have been re-bored, of course, then re-proofed before it can be sold, I'm sure.
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I'd like to know what Mr.Adler had to do to get a patched .614 ball down a choked .620(?) bore.
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Daryl, thanks for the input. I have some emails out to several auction houses.
Dave
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I've had a few Pedersoli muzzleloaders, and still have two of the "full size" variants, one in flint and the other in percussion. These are rifles with the ~42" barrels, not the earlier "mini" size rifles with barrels around 35".
I just shot the flintlock for the first time. It shot very well (when I did my part). The front sight blade came out of the base, but otherwise it functioned great (and I prefer to install sights that fit my taste, anyway).
My Pedersoli "Blue Ridge" in .32 shoots great, too.
Here's my synopsis: Pedersoli rifles are an EXCELLENT rifle for the price... IF you buy one used. I would NOT buy one at MSRP (i.e. $700-900). Why not? Because I see superb custom rifles on our own Trader forum for not much more ($900-1200) and I'd take a custom rifle over a production rifle every time. But I've never paid more than about $350 for a used Pedersoli in excellent shape.
I'm surprised Pedersoli doesn't follow a more historically-correct stock pattern (like a Southern Mtn Rifle or other well-defined school) and either tapered or swamped barrels.
Anyway, I still prefer my custom-built rifles, but the Pedersolis are a great entry-level rifle. After all, anyone who sticks around the traditional muzzleloader community will acquire several rifles, and usually they acquire custom rifles over time.
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What I find off putting is that there are things that could be done better / more historically correct etc. if they had the knowledge and desire to do so. Obviously some compromises have to be made based on their production process and price point, but things could definetely be done better.
These are lower end production guns, though and I'll bet 99.9% of buyers don't know any different or don't care. Their success shows they have filled a void.
All the best,
Jim
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Jim, exactly. The majority of entrants into muzzleloading don't want to drop $1200+ on a rifle. They're not sure if they will like it, and they assume a Pedersoli is as good as anything else.
Then they attend muzzleloading events, and they see and handle fine custom rifles, and pretty soon they're eager to order a Kibler rifle... :D Like me!
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I will add one more thing... another reason so many start off with a Traditions/CVA, Pedersoli and similar foreign production rifles is because that's what you find on the Cabela's website and the Dixie Gun Works site. That's what they may find in a gun shop... given that many shops won't carry used muzzleloaders, so they only stock new. In short, they often buy them because they don't know where to find custom rifles. And if they did stumble upon our trader, the $900+ threshold for a custom rifle (usually more like $1200+) can deter many. At least until they figure out that a custom rifle is so much more enjoyable to use.
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Has anyone seen one of Pedersoli’s ’53 Enfields up close? They re-vamped that particular gun based largely on the consultation of some folks who knew what the heck they were talking about and the result was the best reproduction Enfield made. On the flipside, their ’56 2-band Enfield is a mess. They decided (for whatever reason) not to re-vamp that gun.
My point is this: Pedersoli is fully capable of producing both high quality AND historically accurate guns which makes it all the more frustrating that most of their guns only fall into the first category. If Jim Kibler can do what he’s done with limited resources, Pedersoli could produce any number of historically accurate military guns if they wanted to invest in that (and at least plausible civilian arms). Unfortunately, I don’t think there’s enough incentive to do what they did with the ’53 to most of their guns. In that case there was a big enough market who were interested in accurate repros AND competition from other makers that caused them to differentiate. With the Brown Bess, for example, the only real competition they have is Indian repros (super cheap) and custom guns (not super cheap). They clearly don’t see a need to fine tune a long land pattern or any other variation because Europeans and North Americans are going to buy their Bess repro anyway.
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Has anyone seen one of Pedersoli’s ’53 Enfields up close? They re-vamped that particular gun based largely on the consultation of some folks who knew what the heck they were talking about and the result was the best reproduction Enfield made. On the flipside, their ’56 2-band Enfield is a mess. They decided (for whatever reason) not to re-vamp that gun.
My point is this: Pedersoli is fully capable of producing both high quality AND historically accurate guns which makes it all the more frustrating that most of their guns only fall into the first category. If Jim Kibler can do what he’s done with limited resources, Pedersoli could produce any number of historically accurate military guns if they wanted to invest in that (and at least plausible civilian arms). Unfortunately, I don’t think there’s enough incentive to do what they did with the ’53 to most of their guns. In that case there was a big enough market who were interested in accurate repros AND competition from other makers that caused them to differentiate. With the Brown Bess, for example, the only real competition they have is Indian repros (super cheap) and custom guns (not super cheap). They clearly don’t see a need to fine tune a long land pattern or any other variation because Europeans and North Americans are going to buy their Bess repro anyway.
Well, there you go. When you get right down to it if it's cheap enough people will buy it and make excuses it's "close enough". I found if you can sell a gun on the cheap guys will line up to buy them because "They're a good gun.....for the money". ::) Look at all this India crapola people clamber after....good grief! :o
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wouldn't it be wonderful if muzzloading was popular enough that everyone had a $1000 or so rifle...... think how popular it would be if the entry level guns didn't exist.
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wouldn't it be wonderful if muzzloading was popular enough that everyone had a $1000 or so rifle...... think how popular it would be if the entry level guns didn't exist.
We can dream can't we? ;D
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wouldn't it be wonderful if muzzloading was popular enough that everyone had a $1000 or so rifle...... think how popular it would be if the entry level guns didn't exist.
I totally get Mike Brooks' comments, but Ron W is dead-on right... if I had to jump right in with a $1K rifle, I probably wouldn't be into muzzleloaders right now.
Also, "better" isn't necessarily what everyone wants. Sometimes "good enough" is fine with the guy who only wants to shoot occasionally and/or hunt during ML season.
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a dream it would be, Mike. that said,....if it weren't for the inlines at Fleet Farm and Wally-world, most states probably wouldn't even have a muzzle loader deer season.
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a dream it would be, Mike. that said,....if it weren't for the inlines at Fleet Farm and Wally-world, most states probably wouldn't even have a muzzle loader deer season.
By my dim recollection, first they made the muzzleloading deer season then they started making inline muzzleloaders. If it wasn't for ML deer season inlines probably wouldn't even exist today. My neighbor has one, he loves it. Takes it during shotgun season as well, he rarely misses with it.
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I use my muzzleloaders during the regular gun season. The separate season didn't come until later on , here, and then it was always after the regular season, in Dec. Often, the deer had yarded up by then , up here in the woods. Hunters in S. W. Ontario farm country do well though during B.P season.
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many states didn't have a muzzleloader season until the popularity of inlines created disparity between regular high power gun hunters and the muzzleloader hunters that suggested the high power hunters had an advantage because they could shoot so much farther. I think the advent of in lines was a natural progression that resulted from manufacturers wanting an easier way to use a muzzle loader to be loaded. in my state, the muzzle loader season came along right about the same time in lines started gaining popularity. the argument was the muzzleloaders were handicapped by range, just like archers and they should be able to have their own season because of it...... and of course,.... that opened the argument for climbing trees as well.