AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: ron w on March 06, 2019, 01:56:25 AM
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everytime I see a back action lock, I have to ask my self," why were they made". I have no problems with varied designs an/or alternative choices, but for the life of me, I cannot seem to see the advantages of a back action lock. all I see is that it makes one heck of a hole in the weakest part of a gunstock, where adding some meat for strength would result in a fairy chunky feeling gun.
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One reason would be for an oversized barrel like on a chunk gun if there is no room for the mainspring at the front of the lock.
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=52667.0
Kevin
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You see more front action guns broken through the lock bolt area than you do back action guns broken through the wrist.
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In my experience, back action lock guns are very often broken at the wrist. Out here on the left coast a lot of muzzleloaders got built after modern firearms were quite common. Lots of these late percussion guns had back action lock. The strength of the long armed back action locks mainspring was the kiss of death for the wrist of the gun if the lock wasn’t properly installed. If the snail,or drum, didn’t stop the upwards thrust of the lock plate when the hammer contacted the nipple, a broken wrist was the likely result. Sometimes even with good contact with the plate, and the bottom of the powder drum, the wrist would be broken simply because the lockbolt wasn’t properly Installed either through a snug fitting hole in the breechplug, or threaded into the tab on the breechplug, preventing the plate from moving even a little bit. The smallest movement of the plate in the lock mortise often resulted in a broken wrist.
Hungry Horse
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In my experience, back action lock guns are very often broken at the wrist. Out here on the left coast a lot of muzzleloaders got built after modern firearms were quite common. Lots of these late percussion guns had back action lock. The strength of the long armed back action locks mainspring was the kiss of death for the wrist of the gun if the lock wasn’t properly installed. If the snail,or drum, didn’t stop the upwards thrust of the lock plate when the hammer contacted the nipple, a broken wrist was the likely result. Sometimes even with good contact with the plate, and the bottom of the powder drum, the wrist would be broken simply because the lockbolt wasn’t properly Installed either through a snug fitting hole in the breechplug, or threaded into the tab on the breechplug, preventing the plate from moving even a little bit. The smallest movement of the plate in the lock mortise often resulted in a broken wrist.
Hungry Horse
IF the inletting is to the quality level of a BEST English maker and,as HH says,
the front of the lock plate supported they are a good lock.MOST of the old guns
we see now with the back action locks are/were at the low end of the quality
scale in workmanship and lock quality.
Bob Roller
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according to what i'm reading hear and a little bit in other places, the idea of moving the lock to the wrist just traded breakage locations. I really cannot see where the wrist location would be any stronger than the typical under barrel breech location.
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I think the negative sentiment expressed here is not fully in line with what old gunmakers thought about back-action locks. I collect primarily out of Kentucky, but work with rifles from all over, with a preference for Southern and Midwestern rifles. I have not seen a majority of broken rifles [through wrist or through lock plate mortise] that were back-action locks, and from my experience I do not believe they were more prone to breakage; it probably tips the other way from what I've seen.
In Kentucky, the back-action lock was perceived by the better gunmakers as a superior lock, based on the rapid switch to back-action locks by many of the better makers in the larger cities. The superior Bardstown rifles by Jacob Rizer and David Weller went rather quickly to back-action locks soon after the flint era ended in Kentucky. Louisville's best makers, Moses Dickson and Joseph Griffith, both used many back-action locks on better rifles. Benjamin Mills, arguably one of the finest target rifle builders in the United States, and highly admired within Kentucky by most other gunsmiths, went to back-action locks for almost all of his superior rifles after the flint era. There were obviously preferences in some areas for the older front action locks, by both gunsmiths and customers, just as there were preferences for longer barrels well into the percussion era in Kentucky, or preferences for flint guns well into the 1840s in the southeastern hill country, etc. etc.
In my experience with these old rifles, many superior builders considered them an advancement over the front action percussion lock in the first 10 to 15 years of the percussion era. I have never read of any old gunsmith's reasons for preferring the back-action, or even the front action for those who stayed with them. But today's collectors generally do not like the look of a back-action lock in a gun...probably because it looks so different from the old flintlock image...and because they can't pretend their percussion rifle may have been a flintlock if it's mounted with a back-action lock. We shouldn't let our modern dislike for back-action locks [based mostly on appearance] make us start believing they were an inferior style of lock. I don't believe the old gunsmiths who used them thought of them that way. Shelby Gallien
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...and because they can't pretend their percussion rifle may have been a flintlock if it's mounted with a back-action lock.
:o :o :o
Ouch! Best to rip off the band aid and tell it like it is, though!
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Back action locks were thought by many old timers to have the fastest lock time of any lock. The wrist breakage myth comes about because the lock was held on with a single lock bolt, many of which had no escutcheon for the bolt to bottom out on. This led to overtightening, which in turn formed a crack running from the bolt to the breech area. That was the weak point which led to wrist breakage.
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so, ok,….what made the back action lock be considered so much faster than the front action lock ?. because of it's design,..did the space available for a main spring allow a much heftier spring ?
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Ron,I built a longrifle with antique back action lock, and similar parts to what msellers has.The sear spring end of the mainspring was gone, I made a separate spring for the sear. It is installed with set triggers, and when I fired it the first time ,it scared me ,it was as fast as a 22.Made a good hole in target. Next 10 rounds,same fast ignition. I didn't like b/a looks initially, still like front actions for most of the reasons given. But ya got to give the devil his due,mine is fast. Have a goodun. Dave 8) 8)
I guess my next backsliding will be a Mule Ear lock on sumpin.lol
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Bob roller has it right as far as I can tell.
The back action was reported to offer a stronger stock, than the bar or regular sidelock, If well fitted.
These were used extensively for British doubles, rifles and shotgun.
The ones I have, have stood the test of time and are as sound as ever, and come from a period when sportsmen could and did fire more rounds in a year than we do in a lifetime.
(20,000 rounds a year was not unheard of) these stocks were thinned down to a bare minimum as well, and look downright "scraggy" compared to many older and newer stocks through the wrist.
Good wood, Well fitted and no bothers at all.
I think the only failure of many later and cheap back -action locks, was in making them look right. Many plainly didn't!
Too much drop is also very hard on stocks with this action, but this is the case whatever action is used.
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Like any sort of lock, quality varied. I’ve got an original SxS 18 ga shotgun with quite nice back action locks, and I’ve seen plenty not so good.
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Back action locks had some idiosyncrasies that caused people not knowledgeable in their function to do irreparable damage to both stocks, and locks. Few of these locks had internal stops in the fired position, so if the gun was snapped without a nipple, or with a short, or battered nipple, the sping often extend beyond the edges of the plate damaging the stock, and sometimes the lock itself.
Hungry Horse
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Old Hoss,
My locks don't have that problem. You are very right though, some Do!
(https://i.ibb.co/SJ6mhp8/standard-JB-Ashes.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nRw1HSv)
(https://i.ibb.co/kcFDQHM/standard-John-Blissett.jpg) (https://ibb.co/WK1zgxs)
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Lots of tricky filing in that pair of locks.Reminds me of the pair of back action
small Brazier locks on the Holland&Holland double rifle I got from Tom Dawson years ago.
Fine quality,fine fiting,works every time.
Bob Roller
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so you might say that along with the decreased lock time, they were the beginning of weeding out the "everyday" gunsmiths and somewhat responsible for gun making becoming a truly specialized niche.
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Bob,
The locks I showed are Joseph Brazier locks. :-) Marked in full and "Ashes" His Wolverhampton workshops.
Seems he marked his name in full and "Ashes" on his V best locks.
Ron,
I think everyday gunsmiths were probably on the rise, rather than the contrary. Most didn't make locks. Locks were made in great numbers by the Birmingham trade, but best locks were a speciality.
I think it was More important to patronise Good gunsmith in the days of flint and steel, as qickness of fire was essential for fowling pieces.
Still, Good guns/locks last a lot longer than middling ones.
It is a fact that locks by Brazier, Stanton, and some few others, have a lifespan yet to be determined.
If kept oiled and rust free, they are as good now as when they were made, about 170 or so years ago.
Best regards,
R.
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These locks and others of similar type and craftsmanship were my inspiration
in past years. If something is going to be even marginally copied at least try
to copy the best. I made my first Stanton style in 1987 and took it to Friendship
in the Fall of that year. John Bivens told me he was very glad to see I had taken
an interest in such locks and another man was looking at it and asked "How much for one of these"?
I told him I was going to ask $250 for the time and effort to make it.He handed me
two $100 bills and one $50. I told him it was my demonstrator and show lock and his
reply was "Show and demonstrate it all you want to but be sure I have it before you
go home". That man was R.E.Davis whose name is still used as a DBA today as a
supplier of muzzle loading items.
The lock I copied was borrowed from Lynton McKenzie and he took it off an original
Alex Henry rifle and when it arrived I stopped everything else and set about copying it
to the best of my ability. I was pleased with the effort and called Lynton and told him
what I had done and told him that my copy's parts,other than the screws would interchange
with his antique lock.He was as pleased as I was.
Later on I borrowed another Stanton 4 pin of a much smaller scale he took from a
Whitworth boy's rifle and I copied it was well.I have made only 7 of these and about
30?-35 of the full size version since 1987.
The Hawken lock Taylor posted for me with the Stanton 3 pin bridle represents what
I consider as major improvement on an American style lock but with the third screw
at the lower edge of the plate it wouldn't look right on a Hawken copy.
Bob Roller
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Bob,
No photos of the guts of this one, but it is of an Alex. Henry double I used to own.
Pretty sure these were Brazier locks as well.
Ran out of funds and sold it after we came to Canada. I think I got about $500 for it.
The son-in -law of the chap I sold it to has it up for sale................for $7,600 I think!
Linda took these photos with her phone at a gunshow where he had it.
It is the Only set of locks I have ever seen engraved on the Backs of the spurs.
Sorry for poor photos.
R.
(https://i.ibb.co/kB7D18c/IMG-20160423-135305.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1QgX6q2)
image upload sites (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://i.ibb.co/bmf8J7q/IMG-20160423-135322.jpg) (https://ibb.co/pwm9ynG)
infiniti q70l 0 60 (https://statewideinventory.org/infiniti-0-60-times)
(https://i.ibb.co/dgd5xgX/IMG-20160423-135532.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cLGrVLR)
Just realized I broke the law here!
Pics may get removed but will leave someone else to do that, then you may get to see them first, Bob!
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While on the subject of back action locks, I have a question about a back action lock I bought from Dixie Gun Works, back when old Turner was still doing his version of the pickers in all the old warehouses in Europe, and elsewhere. The lock is very large, with a massive hammer. It was unused, and pretty much unfinished when I got it. It came in a lot of locks I bought cheap from Dixie. It’s a left hand lock, so I suppose it was intended for a large double barreled shotgun. The internals are of reasonable quality, with a link to the tumbler, and a separate sear spring. Have any of you seen this lock used on a modern build? I am trying to get it cleaned up enough to use on a .62 cal. Rifle for my nephew.
Hungry Horse
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Richard, luckily I got to see those illegal pictures before removal!
The locks are truly beautiful, with the shaping and with the engraving. I would like to see the trigger guard, however - it looks exquisitely delicate! And I imagine that it is engraved as well.
I think that you ought to re-buy the shotgun, and let Mr. Roller duplicate the locks.
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Craig,
If I buy it back, I'll need some sponsors! Are you up for it?? Anyone else??
Might have old 35mm photos somewhere. Sold it in pre -digital days..
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Craig,
If I buy it back, I'll need some sponsors! Are you up for it?? Anyone else??
Might have old 35mm photos somewhere. Sold it in pre -digital days..
I could do it but would end up having to build an air conditioned dog house and start
living in it.Such a purchase would provoke the wrath of my wife of almost 50 years ;D.
Bob Roller
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Bob,
I too would incur the wrath of my wife of 41 years.....
That would give us a total of over 90 years of grief between us!
We should spread the stress over a wider base. I'd accept paypal. :-)
LOL!
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I acquired this well-made pistol in southern Indiana this past week with a back-action lock. Probably not everyone's favorite, but it is a better than average pistol, stocked in good curly maple, with attractive forestock inlay work, and undoubtedly of Midwestern origin. It is neatly stamped "J. Turk" in front of the rear sight, and may be the work of James Turk of Warren County, Ohio. However, I have seen several James Turk rifles over the years, and all were rather plain with faded maple and displayed little if any merit including the stock architecture. So I am hoping there was another "J. Turk" working in the Midwest who made better quality guns, but is perhaps less well known.
I picked up the pistol because of the forestock German silver inlays in the form of stylized eagles. I have only seen this particular inlay on one other rifle, a high quality, heavily decorated Kentucky full-stocked rifle by the Bell brothers of Bracken County, Kentucky and dated 1821. The Bell rifle's inlays were fully engraved, so the feathers and eagle's head were deliniated. The plain back-action lock has a very clean, crisp action, suggesting the pistol saw little actual use. The gun also has a nifty little German silver cap box in the butt. I thought seeing a new example of a back-action lock on a better-than-average firearm might add a little interest to this thread. Barrel is 11-1/4 inches, .37 caliber with seven-groove rifled bore. Shelby Gallien
(https://i.ibb.co/zG7pv8q/Turk-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bz2T9Hc)
(https://i.ibb.co/DVMv7dL/Turk-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/YRd1tgb)
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Nice looking pistol
Dennis
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Shelby that back action lock sure don't bother me .. Looks like it belongs there..Very nice pistol..Louie
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to me, they look fine on a pistol,..as if they were designed to be there,....but they look out of place on a rifle.
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Ron, I tend to think back-action locks look better on pistols as well, particularly when they "bend" with the curve of the grip as this one does. Shelby Gallien
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I have a collection of Christian Seibert rifles out of Columbus Ohio, that are predominently stocked with back action locks. All of them are 1870-1880 period and work as though they were made yesterday. I also have a contemporary rifle wit a back action L&R lock that is fast and reliable.
Mark
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so,... to sum it up,.....what specifically made the back action lock be considered faster than a typical conventional lock of the era ?.
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I think they had a shorter throw, and a stronger spring. I shot a Tryon for several years, and it seemed to be faster than traditional locks. That Tryon is the only production gun I ever regretted getting rid of.
Hungry Horse
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Ron W,
I don't think there is any difference in lock time between a bar or sidelock and a back action lock, if of the same quality and throw.
I know we cannot tell the difference without complex machinery, but to me there is no difference. If of good quality, Both are fast.
Best ,
R.
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Back to RON W.'s original question - I have many original percussion guns and see little lock speed difference between bar locks and other types if the guns are of similar craftsmanship. To quote W W GREENER, " With the muzzle-loader one was as good as another, the preference being given to the bar-lock on the score of appearance. With the breech-loader, the case is not the same; for the bar-lock more metal has to be cut away from the breech-action body, where it is badly needed. With the back-action lock this metal is left, BUT THE STOCK IS WEAKENED AT THE POINT WHERE IT IS MOST LIABLE TO FRACTURE..." (the capitalization is mine).
I once thought that the gunsmiths of the 1800's used back action locks due to a higher cost of purchasing bar locks, but the 1871 Great Western Gun Works catalog proved me wrong. Although steel bar locks are slightly more expensive than steel back action types, the prices are quite similar for both wrought iron and malleable iron bar and back action.
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If anyone is interested in Midwestern guns, the curly maple stocked pistol I posted with the "J. Turk" barrel stamp has been identified. Thanks to researcher Jeff Jaeger of Indiana, who owns a fine signed and well-decorated William Turk rifle made in Putnam County, Indiana, the pistol appears to be the work of William Turk's oldest son, John Turk, who later moved to Missouri. He's not a well-known gunsmith, but he continued his father's tradition of attractive, well-made firearms. It helps explain why the pistol showed up in southern Indiana.
The pistol has several interesting details that tie it to his father's work, including a shield-shaped wrist inlay, non-standard rear pipe shape, tang and rear sight shape, etc. Also regarding a prior comment on back-action locks, this lock is mounted with the standard tail screw, but the front bolt actually goes in from the front and threads into the breech plug, anchoring the lock in place and not allowing it to work upward. As a result, there is no lock bolt showing on the back side. Instead, there is a German silver inlay, pinned to the stock and in the shape of the back-action lock plate on the opposite side. Unfortunately, that inlay is now missing from the pistol. Shelby Gallien
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A comment may be in order to clarify the comment by W. W. Greener on back-action locks. Comparing a metal breeched shotgun to a Kentucky rifle is comparing "apples to oranges." Of course a shotgun wrist will be weakened if a back-action lock is installed due to wood removal in the wrist. But the original question was regarding a Kentucky-style rifle with wood at both the wrist and the breech, not a gun with a large metal breech. The question asked which area was more prone to breakage, the lock area if a front action lock was mounted, or the wrist area if a back-action lock was mounted. In that comparison, I still think the back-action lock does a little less damage to the integrity of the stock, and fewer stock breaks occur with a back-action lock than with a front action lock. Shelby Gallien
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Shelby,
I think you may be right concerning the strongest stock.
I traded a nearly brand new Spanish double 12 to an old mate (Back in the UK) for an old double with back action locks. (We both thought the other was daft!)
A while later he was in trouble with the new gun. He had hit a wounded fox over the head with this new gun, and bust the stock into five pieces. (!)
He said that the old gun never broke when he hit stuff with it!
Yes, I stuck his new gun's stock back together, and it was still going strong when he died, but it gave me a very clammy feeling to know he'd been bashing stuff over the head with what was now 'my" old John Blissett!
The stock is very slim, but has no cracks or looseness, despite my friends 'use' of it for decades.
The pisto you show should hold wel in the hand by what I can see. V nice!
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I really like this piece I picked up a long while back made by W. Everson who move from Kentucy to Indianna.
It needs attention for the ailment we describe. I love the architecture even with the back action lock.
(https://i.ibb.co/dfTKrsq/20190310-222239.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0n7JcpS)
(https://i.ibb.co/7t0JdF0/20190310-222309.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hFTRJvT)
(https://i.ibb.co/wBXMdPx/DSCN4633.jpg) (https://ibb.co/q7fkDcP)
(https://i.ibb.co/9H3Dcjm/20190310-225723.jpg) (https://ibb.co/HTpSBQL)
(https://i.ibb.co/4jhZDhf/20190310-225757.jpg) (https://ibb.co/MRFDjFh)
the lock screw is not a phillips head but a flat cross headed screw
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Dave, I'm not sure how much info you have on Washington Everson, but in case I can add something, here's what I have. Everson was born in Pennsylvania in 1811. Soon after completing his apprenticeship, he moved to Louisville, Kentucky where he is first documented as a journeyman working for Louisville's most prominent gunsmith at the time, Moses Dickson. He showed up in the 1860 and 1870 censuses in Dearborn County, Indiana where he was listed as a gunsmith. His son John was born in Kentucky and 22 years old in 1860. Unfortunately, I don't have census data on him for the intervening years. I think some people think his first name was "William," but in the Louisville City Directory of 1838-1839 the first name is clearly "Washington."
I do not have photos of a Washington Everson rifle for my ongoing Kentucky work and records, and I like the look of your rifle. It is very much in the style of a Moses Dickson rifle, back-action lock and all, of the late 1830s. Is there any chance you could re-shoot a few (4) pictures of your rifle for me? If so, I would greatly appreciate getting: 1) a good full length shot, 2) the standard half-length shot of the front showing out to about 10" past the lock, 3) standard half-length of the back side, and 4) shot of the barrel signature. I have found I can get very good pictures if I lay the gun on a concrete driveway (carefully) outside but in the shade...with the barrel pointing in the direction of the unseen sun. The concrete gives a solid, off-white background that is easy to photoshop out later on.
Thanks for posting your rifle. I really enjoy seeing a new rifle from KY, and particularly when I haven't seen an example of that maker's work. Would you mind posting the barrel length, bore size (approximately) and tang length...and if one or two screws in the tang? Thanks, Shelby Gallien
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Thank you for that information. I only knew that he had worked some where in Kentucky before moving north. I will get you the photos you requested this weekend maybe. We are supposed to get more snow the next couple of days :-\. the barrel is 42.1/4" long, Just over an inch at the breach 1.010" and .950" across the flats at the muzzle, 7 wide lands and narrow groves, .42 caliber. Tang is 4 3/8" long with two wood screws. Just noticed some folksy engraving on the tang and the screws are engraved. Its funny how things show up under a good light.
Heres his signature stamp.
(https://i.ibb.co/yQPh244/DSCN4631.jpg) (https://ibb.co/YLQDg00)
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Enclosed is a image of a early back action lock patent by James Rowntree has a patch lock with a detach nose of 1810 four years later this gun maker built the first percussion gun using steel top hat caps for Joshua Shaw before he emigrated to the States in 1817 aboard the ship Electra .
Feltwad
Rowntree patent back action Patch Lock
l(https://i.ibb.co/mCCMZrj/P1010003.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Kjj34cP)
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Here's some pictures of a back action lock I have. It's a left-hand lock and based on the engraving on the banner beginning with "&", I think it is half of a pair, I'm guessing from a double shotgun. The cycling is smooth as glass.
(https://i.ibb.co/MNMBW3f/100-1285.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5cBKtfk)
(https://i.ibb.co/QkPSYmD/100-1286.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tzqjYCL)
(https://i.ibb.co/8r0f9L7/100-1287.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VgtzTcq)
(https://i.ibb.co/4ZgQhL9/100-1288.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ns8WxyZ)
-Ron
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Thanks for the lock shots guy's. That left hand lock has very cool example of fine internals. They be no slipping that sear out of the half cock notch, no sir.
Feltwad, Do you have any photos of the internals of the James Rowntree lock?
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Dave
Enclosed are two images of the lock internal ,notice the large mainspring and the simple device on the hammer nose for holding the separated patch holder
Feltwad
(https://i.ibb.co/1z9Jh1M/P1010016.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6X4JVz8)
(https://i.ibb.co/GccTJzV/P1010004.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wMMsL5K)
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That left hand lock is a work of art in steel or iron. That type of
assembly guarantees,along with a properly made mainspring
a very smooth working mechanism.Old time craftsmanship.
Bob Roller
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Feltwad,
That is a Very compact lock! Reminds me of the Spanish miquelet, Heavy and small.
I hadn't seen a lock anything like this one my old pal. Thanks for showing it.
Ron,
As Bob says, that is a Lovely lock!
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Thank you for posting the insides of your lock I have never heard of a patch lock before. I have seen pictures of this same style mechanism but assumed it was a metal cap that was used.
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Thank you for posting the insides of your lock I have never heard of a patch lock before. I have seen pictures of this same style mechanism but assumed it was a metal cap that was used.
Both the patch lock and the tube lock did not reign long most were converted to percussion using the copper cap , for ignition using a patch and tube lock there is no difference to a percussion cap only the cap was more convenient . I liked the tube lock I did use my 6 bore tube lock for many years ago for fowling but with the lead ban for fowling I pensioned it off to my collection
It seems for that period very little if any crossed the pond .
Feltwad