AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: jdm on March 08, 2019, 07:12:55 PM
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I know unsigned pistols are sometimes imposable to identify But thought I would give it a shot anyway . This one has a swamped brass barrel that appears to by American made. There are no markings on it. Brass trigger guard that I believe is imported. Nice beveled arrowhead lock bolt plate . There is also a liberty head carved in front of the trigger guard. As far as I can tell there are no other known pistols with one carved . It has been broken threw the wrist and repaired ( I believe in period ). There is some wear around the repair from use.
I hope some of you might have some ideas. Thanks Jim
(https://i.ibb.co/0B97DVX/IMG-0550.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9w4D83v)
(https://i.ibb.co/Z8Jwqtf/IMG-0553.jpg) (https://ibb.co/2t6LGmF)
(https://i.ibb.co/5T7qGpn/IMG-0530.jpg) (https://ibb.co/BL18cWr)
(https://i.ibb.co/XYW7M1y/IMG-0539.jpg) (https://ibb.co/xF21dWm)
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(https://i.ibb.co/x3z5Td5/IMG-0524.jpg) (https://ibb.co/XVFJRMJ)
(https://i.ibb.co/DMFmN60/IMG-0521.jpg) (https://ibb.co/FY1c9fR)
(https://i.ibb.co/gDQFbJh/IMG-0532.jpg) (https://ibb.co/xMw8K6d)
(https://i.ibb.co/HD7T4RW/IMG-0538.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Rp2Tbtx)
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Jacob Kunitz.
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Nice pistol, also.
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Thanks for posting! I have a similar barrel I’ve been looking for inspiration for. Any guesses on dating? Looks like a pretty early Ketland lock? When did that Indian head first appear?
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Jim can you take some clearer pictures of the head? Different light, different angles. My first impression is that it's not a Moll but it's tough to tell as I can't get a really good look at that head. Johannes and his son John II did tend to cut a fairly identifiable liberty head, although I like to argue and people like to argue with me so it might be my theory only. But I can't determine much with these photos of the head. Sure does look like a very nice pistol! Maybe later 1780s-1790s? I think Puleo could probably give you a very clear idea of the period of the lock.
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Is this the one that was on Dick Vandenberg's site...and sold earlier this year? Either way - congrats. Nice piece!
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The lock would date it I think 1780-1790 about what your thinking Eric. I believe the lock is original to the gun . If nor certainly in period of use. Here are what pictures I have of the head now. What about the arrowhead lock plate? Has any body done a study of these as to makers?
(https://i.ibb.co/rZSSJYm/IMG-0556.jpg) (https://ibb.co/SK88pbP)
(https://i.ibb.co/hDmp2BX/IMG-0557.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7217rng)
(https://i.ibb.co/rHhtFXX/IMG-0559.jpg) (https://ibb.co/pdTPbkk)
(https://i.ibb.co/fQHLJmq/IMG-0561.jpg) (https://ibb.co/WsfjCSG)
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120RIR
Yes Mike D'Ambra turned it up . I first saw it around twenty years ago when Mike had it at the Tulsa gun show.I was broke so all I did was dream.
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That is a fascinating and nice pistol.
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This has been given an attribution to Johannes Moll from others. I'm just not knowledgeable enough about the details of this to satisfy my own mind. It's good to haves others looking that may see something I don't. It would be nice if there was a reference with pictures of the identified liberty/Indian heads for a reference. Thank you all for looking.
Eric I hope this head looks familiar. Didn't the Molls have some kind of brass foundry or operation going also?
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Not Jacob Kuntz, to my eye.
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I had the privilege of playing with this gun in person. Sweet little gun. I really like the barrel shape, dramatic swamp with a sighting plain, very cool. I like the export trigger guard too, really adds a little extra zing and of course who doesn't like lady Liberty on a pistol?
I'm not overly educated on Lehigh guns but it doesn't have enough "Kuntz-isms" for me. I'd lean Moll. Does the sideplate shape hint at a particular maker?
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Essentially the only 'Lehigh-isms' here are the liberty head and the sideplate, and honestly, short of identifying an identical head on a different signed piece, we're kind of throwing darts at a dartboard around a corner.
Has the barrel been removed (I assume it has) to inspect for any markings?
I do not think this is a Moll product, certainly not Johannes as it very well may post-date his death and also I simply do not see this liberty head as looking anything like those I have examined on signed or unsigned pieces I would attribute to him. Fairly ditto for John II.
I would be much more inclined to view this is an early Kunz product, or possibly one of the Rupps, JMHO.
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120RIR
Yes Mike D'Ambra turned it up .
Mike truly has turned up some nice stuff over the years!
I bought most of my good stuff from him, and recently have sold most of my good stuff back through him!
I wish I would have seen that pistol at some point though!
;)
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Thank you everyone for your replies .
Mike I enjoyed talking with you at the show and am inclined to agree with you about the " Kuntz-isms". The way the wedding band lines around the barrel don't match , ( to me anyway ) doesn't look like something Kuntz would let slide. On the other hand after all that work you sure aren't going to pitch it out. I do think it's a pretty cool barrel. There are no markings on either side of it.
Eric, I was counting on your expertise in this area to back up the Moll theory . Now you've got me digging through more reference books. I knew with the lack of clues it would be hard to pin down. I had discounted Kuntz because I felt his work was a little more refined .An early Rupp ? That will give me something to do. Johannes Moll died in 1794 ? plus he was all ready in my head so I was already leaning that way. The Molls work IMHO can be a little bit more on the folksy side as this is. If anyone has any more ideas I'd love to here them Thanks JIM
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I think it's a mistake to go into the investigation with the assumption that the maker of the pistol also cast or otherwise decoratively filed the barrel. The trigger guard is an obvious import piece - whether it displays primary only or secondary usage, you could say but I can't. The lock is an import commercial sales piece. With no markings on the barrel, it's really impossible to say where or when or by whom it was made. The sideplate looks to be local, and is likely a product of the pistol stocker. The architecture looks very good, so the guy surely was competent. The liberty head definitely does not look like one of the earlier Molls to me.
"Folksy" is not the way I would view the work of Johannes / John II. I lump them together because we still have no real clear handle on who's work we may be viewing, and there are only a couple of barrels clearly signed "Johannes Moll," both on much later restocked guns. The earlier work i.e. the rifle belonging to BM or the piece once owned by Alex C. possibly made for Isaac Greenleaf - both on the KRA disc - are spectacular pieces of work. In fact the 'Greenleaf' rifle (I'll go along with that theory in Alex's memory :) ) is probably one of the most spectacular early gen Lehighs in existence. I'd like to believe they are late work of Johannes but they also could be early John II. Now by the time you get to John III, I will agree things get a bit rougher and potentially folksy to some degree, and potentially some of the early 19th century or later work of John II (does not appear to have worked very long).
BTW, just offering my argumentative opinions based upon my own experience, the internet is tough so rest assured I say it all with a smile!
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Eric, No problem I respect your opinion and know you don't throw any punches. That is why I asked. Perhaps my use of folksy was not the correct word. I agree the Molls have done some outstanding work and I'm a fan of plain or fancy rifles. More so of the plain. Perhaps what I should have said some of the Moll rifles and Rupps are more likely to lack extra little embellishments than a Kuntz would. I'm sure I 'm not phrasing this right . Perhaps I should concede.
I personally think this is great pistol and really enjoy it no matter who the maker was. It's just fun to research.
I mentioned the barrel because I thought the Moll family had a business in casting brass also.
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In my search for the maker of my unsigned Lehigh style rifle, I found that many of the families of the more famous gunsmiths of this area were intermarried to some degree. I also found that many family members of these families apprenticed in one gunshop or another, even if they didn’t choose to work as a full time gunsmith, in later life. I think most of these trained gunsmiths, that were making a living doing something else, built a few guns on the side. I also believe many of these winter project guns were not signed. This makes it very hard to track down the maker of one of these small production pieces.
Hungry Horse