AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: Woodsrunner79 on March 22, 2019, 01:23:42 PM
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Hi, all. I just got my first flintlock, a Jim Chambers York in .40, and am having trouble securing the flint in the cockjaw. Would a piece of sheet lead or strip of leather help in this? Also, how tight should I be screwing it down ( don't want to break/hurt the lock)
Cheers, Jordan
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use leather. do not use lead.
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Tight is good, I tighten my jaw screw with a bit of hand force and a proper fitting screwdriver. If you don't you will shoot a few times and the flint will work loose.
Wrap your flint like I did mine in the picture;
(https://i.ibb.co/DpCzm8G/kibler-lock.jpg) (https://ibb.co/M6VZKG8)
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Now that you know the way to install a flint. Go and buy the book "Flintlocks a Practical Guide for Their Use and Appreciation", by Eric Bye. Everyone who is starting out in flintlocks needs this book no matter how much experience you have in black powder, or how many willing teachers you have around you.
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I too have had this problem in the past and being a persistent type I experimented with sheet lead (large Siler lock) and various types and thicknesses of leather. Leather is the only material I will use and having a large supply of flints on hand is also helpful. I second the advise to use a proper fitting screw driver to snugthings up unless you like looking at buggered metal.
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Along with what wingshot said if a new flint protrudes too far forward, cut a small notch in the back fold of the leather. This will allow you to slide the flint back until it touches the threads.
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(https://i.ibb.co/PxVxPHb/DSC02985.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zstsBvL) Gold age chambers lock
Chambers locks should use Leather(other wise might void warranty)
old leather wallets and belts are a good source for leather
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Elk hide works best for me.
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Ditto all the above. I use only leather for the flint. Experimented with sheet lead once and it didn't work.
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I also recommend leather, instead of lead. I also cut a small hole in the center of my leather wrap, and with a knapping pin cleave a notch in the heal of the flint, so, the flint doesn’t slip sideways, or loosen up while carrying my while hunting. I found an old flint with a notch in the heal, and tried it, and have been doing it ever since.
Hungry Horse
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Thank you, everyone, for the replies. I've got a bit of leather laying around from various projects.
I saw a copy of Mr. Bye's wonderful book while acquiring my rifle. Unfortunately, I just didn't have the scratch needed to get both.
Cheers, Jordan
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Yes, make sure it is all the way back against the screw. Use leather. I make the leather go to the end of the flint on the top to prevent flint damage from a rebounding frizzen. God Bless, Marc
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deerskin or better elk works better than cow leather. flints have more tendency to spit out of cow leather-deer and elk grip them better.
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A shooting buddy was having all kinds of trouble with flints coming out of the laws. Cow leather, yes. I cut rasp like teeth in both jaws for him. They came out smaller than I would have liked. The steel was very hard and refused to anneal so I did the best I could.
Next shoot the flints still worked out.
I just had a though to treat the leather with rosin. Dissolve rosin in alcohol. Dredge the flint leathers in it.. Let dry. Should hold good? I use it for barrel vice work and it stops slipping between maple and steel. Why not for this?
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Sometimes if the leather is on the thick side and a bit soft I will hammer it out to compress it some before installing it. Seems to help. Lead was used it appears on some large musket locks and such but you should not use it in modern locks. Most are cast metal and the added mass can damage the lock or at the least void the warranty as someone has said. Nuff said. I didn't need to see my lock break first hand so I stick with leather.
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As noted above, be sure to use a graver or small punch to raise a series of "teeth" on both bottom and top jaws. Works a charm.
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I am pretty sure a lead wrap on the flint does add momentum to the cock but didn't loosen on me. The military,
at least in the US, issued lead sheet for holding the flint, so it must have worked. I suspect due to the increased
momentum, it might be harder on the frizzen, perhaps increasing the likelihood of a rebound. I use leather as a
rule, but do have a few pieces of sheet lead in my possibles with the spare flints. I use the thin sheet from X-Ray
room walls. I have also used this sheet, cut narrow, for steelhead flies I want to run deep.
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In my experience, the flint more often slips out of the leather than the leather out of the cock.
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I've used lead and it worked fine for me. I took a round ball and smashed it flat with a hammer.
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Some flints have the hump on their backs and those are problematic for me so I take those and use a grind stone on the hump to take JUST a little of the hump off working slow so as not to heat up the rock too much. It helps a lot. I use brain tan deer or elk for the leathers-never had any luck with the thicker cow hide. Pig skin splits works ok on some locks too.
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The leather did the trick nicely. I was able to shoot 5 ball through her before more modern tribulations manifested themselves. ( the misses had to remind me that the outlets in the bathroom weren't going to rewire themselves) many thanks for everyone's input.
Cheers, Jordan
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The leather did the trick nicely. I was able to shoot 5 ball through her before more modern tribulations manifested themselves. ( the misses had to remind me that the outlets in the bathroom weren't going to rewire themselves) many thanks for everyone's input.
Cheers, Jordan
5 shots? Leather works, lead works.
We shoot the whole course of fire - 30 to 60 shots and often do not have to re-tighten the top-jaw screw.
Odd times, it loosens - happens with some flints, not with others that look the same - IT happens.
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NO LEAD SHEET. Lead sheet will void the warranty on the Jim Chambers lock. Please use leather.
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NO LEAD SHEET. Lead sheet will void the warranty on the Jim Chambers lock. Please use leather.
How come? Lead pounded thin doesn't weigh that much.
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i don't know. i read on multiple threads that Jim Chambers will not accept for warranty if lead wrap. i check his website afterward and, of course, I couldn't find it. here is a quote from Acer Saccharum
Once upon a time, I had made a die for cutting out lead for flint jaws. Jim Chambers admonished me that the extra inertia from the laed caused a number of cock necks to shear from the strain.
I use leather.
here is the thread
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=31201.0
Chamber's website said they will not accept if abused.
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If Jim Chambers advises not to use lead that's good enough for me. Besides being a great guy he has probably forgot more about flintlocks than most of us will ever know! I use leather cut from worn out leather work gloves, almost never do I have a flint come loose even on a long trail walk. Still it is best to check after every 5 shots or so. Make darn sure your turn screw fits the slot correctly or you will bugger the slot!
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I remember reading this article many years ago and it showed no difference in performance between lead and leather. I tried lead because I didn't have a piece of leather handy. I had plenty of round balls, so using lead for holding the flint was easy enough. I used lead for 2 years and nothing broke but it wasn't a Chambers lock. I felt lead held the flint better than leather.
https://www.blackpowdermag.com/lead-vs-leather-flint-attachment-study/
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Not everybody agrees that leather is better.
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/flintlocks-lead-or-leather.4521/
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Unlike this guy, Mike's post:
"Additionally, you can simply wash the lead off when you clean the gun. With a piece of leather, you have to remove it from the gun or the powder residue that gets impregnated into the leather can cause the cock jaws to rust like crazy. Mike Irwin, Jan 18, 2003"
I've never had any rusting of the cock's jaws. Don't know why, as I scrub the lock, cock, jaws, fling and leather or lead with a water soaked 'old' toothbrush.
THEN I wipe and blow off the lock with compressed air (usually), then spray copiously (FLUSHING) with WD40. Perhaps THAT is the secret for not rusting, perhaps the WD40 'chases' the water out of the leather, replacing it with the oil? Who knows, but I do not get "rust like crazy" with either lead or leather.
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I've never got any rusting either and I clean my locks basically just like Daryl described. My leather is always wet when I get through cleaning. Been doing this a long time and that wet leather has given me zero problems.
I ground the tips on a couple of good screwdrivers to fit the slots on the jaw screws on my Siler locks, I can really get a good tightening with a fitted screwdriver tip. I want my flint tight because even though someone might have never had a flint come loose just keep shooting and you will eventually.
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On all my guns and I drill a 1/8" hole through the cock screw and use a short rod through it to tighten the flint-much more leverage. I have also done this to many friends guns.
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Lead was used commonly in the 18th century around the flint but primarily on military flintlocks with much heavier/beefier cocks. Sporting type locks have cocks with much smaller, more delicate throats. Using lead on this type of cock transfers too much shock from the flint striking the frizzen back to the weakest part of the cock and can cause it to break. That is why we recommend using leather rather than lead.
Personally, I usually super glue the leather to the flint. That makes it hold in the jaws much better, and it is easier to remove the leather and flint when cleaning the lock after shooting.
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Lead was used commonly in the 18th century around the flint but primarily on military flintlocks with much heavier/beefier cocks. Sporting type locks have cocks with much smaller, more delicate throats. Using lead on this type of cock transfers too much shock from the flint striking the frizzen back to the weakest part of the cock and can cause it to break. That is why we recommend using leather rather than lead.
Personally, I usually super glue the leather to the flint. That makes it hold in the jaws much better, and it is easier to remove the leather and flint when cleaning the lock after shooting.
The super glue trick is genius if for no other reason than for the ease of reinstalling the flint after lock cleaning.
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"The super glue trick is genius if for no other reason than for the ease of reinstalling the flint after lock cleaning."
I read this somewhere else, it was recommended to super glue leather on flints for woods walks. It made changing flints much easier when needed.
Might work well for limited timed fire pistol matches when changing a flints when needed. I use to keep a spare flint handy for them, now I keep one with the leather glued to it.
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Interesting, but I use the same leather for years.
If it was glued to the flint, how do you get it off without tearing it,
or having to soak the leather on the junk flint for a long period of time in acetone?
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I have a large garbage bag of mule deer and elk hides that my father had. I will never run out of leather so I consider the leathers as disposable.
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I guess technically I use both...
My gun is a production gun and came with the flint wrapped in lead. When I changed flints I reused the lead.
One day I was looking at the geometry of my lock and studied the face of the frizzen. The point where my flints were starting to strike the fizzen face were about 5/8 to 3/4 up the face of the frizzen. So I poked a little piece of leather under the lead and raised my flint up a little... Now the flint makes contact with the frizzen much closer to the top as it travels down the face.
Did it make a world of difference? Probably not. Did it hurt to possibly glean a few more sparks? Not at all.
I'm not an expert in lock geometry, and there was no life-changing improvement. But if it adds a little more spark to the charge in the pan and didn't interfere in the lock operation what's the harm?
I'm not advocating anyone ignore manufacturer recommendations or get crazy or abuse their equipment... But experiment a little with your gear and see if you can tweak it some
Mike
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In marine stores they sell stick on anti-slip pads to put on boats so folks do not slip while boarding or getting off. It comes in different grades and thickness.
Something that might be used on cocks to prevent the leather from slipping, just use the adhesive to attach it.
Some use it on pistols so their hands do not slip.
If you did not like it, just take it off.
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If you drill a hole through the screw and use a little rod through it, you can get the screw way tighter then with a screw driver. Some people use their nipple pick or small end of a jag.
Done it for years and modified scads of locks that way.