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General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: Smokey Plainsman on April 06, 2019, 06:22:43 AM

Title: Bear Pistols?
Post by: Smokey Plainsman on April 06, 2019, 06:22:43 AM
Friends, I've recently become aware of a style of American muzzle-loading pistol known as the "bear pistol". Long barrel, smaller caliber (not sure on that) and here is a photo of one I found on the net:

(https://i.postimg.cc/5ynBFKft/IMG-0507.jpg)

I ask, what's known of these guns? Why was the barrel so long, yet the caliber modest? I think I'd like one made, not for bearing, just range work.

Thoughts and any info on these would be much appreciated!!

-Smokey
Title: Re: Bear Pistols?
Post by: Mauser06 on April 06, 2019, 06:33:48 AM
Have you tried the search function on here??   I recall a post or 2 within the last 2 years about them.

I believe they are of a southern  Appalachian origin...back then bear hounds and trapping ere common practice....a rifle wasn't needed and could get in the way. 

Even today...a lot of hound hunters carry pistols.  I planned to go with a buddies friend that that bear dogs.  He said I wasn't taking a gun that had a scope. 
Title: Re: Bear Pistols?
Post by: Hungry Horse on April 06, 2019, 08:29:12 AM
My grandfather came from Missouri, but his family came from North Caolina, so I suppose maybe some of what he told me could have come from either place. He said they hunted bear with dogs, and once they were treed, they shot them with a long barreled pistol. Often they climbed a tree near the treed bear to get an even closer shot. His older brother Roy actually killed a couple of bears in California that way with a long barreled .22 cal.

  Hungry Horse
Title: Re: Bear Pistols?
Post by: Smokey Plainsman on April 06, 2019, 01:57:44 PM
So what is the purpose of a long barrel if just shooting a tree’d bear at close range??
Title: Re: Bear Pistols?
Post by: Dennis Glazener on April 06, 2019, 02:56:11 PM
I have seen long barreled small caliber bear pistols and also short barreled ones.

The 15 inch flint bear pistol that my great grand uncle made for himself, was a 54 caliber. I always assumed it was that length to allow more of the black powder to burn, giving higher velocity to the 54 caliber round ball. He made a shoulder holster for it and carried it across his chest.

Dennis
Title: Re: Bear Pistols?
Post by: wattlebuster on April 06, 2019, 05:47:47 PM
Joe Schell has built one or two. Do a search of his old posts as they will have pictures
Title: Re: Bear Pistols?
Post by: Smokey Plainsman on April 06, 2019, 08:32:37 PM
Quote from: Dennis Glazener on April 06, 2019, 02:56:11 PM
I have seen long barreled small caliber bear pistols and also short barreled ones.

The 15 inch flint bear pistol that my great grand uncle made for himself, was a 54 caliber. I always assumed it was that length to allow more of the black powder to burn, giving higher velocity to the 54 caliber round ball. He made a shoulder holster for it and carried it across his chest.

Dennis

Interesting! Do you know what year or decade he built it in? Seems like a really interesting gun for range work and hunting. Heck I’d imagine with a 15” or longer barrel and in at least .50 caliber, one could even be used on deer or boar at close range.

So were there larger caliber “bear pistols” available historically? One in .50 with a flintlock and 15” barrel would be really cool! If I had one made (I don’t build myself) I’d like it to look very close to the one in my OP, but of course sans the percussion lock in favor of flint!

Tell me guys, do you think the maple stock would survive the recoil in a caliber like .50?
Title: Re: Bear Pistols?
Post by: Dennis Glazener on April 06, 2019, 09:34:57 PM
Quote from: Smokey Plainsman on April 06, 2019, 08:32:37 PM
Quote from: Dennis Glazener on April 06, 2019, 02:56:11 PM
I have seen long barreled small caliber bear pistols and also short barreled ones.

The 15 inch flint bear pistol that my great grand uncle made for himself, was a 54 caliber. I always assumed it was that length to allow more of the black powder to burn, giving higher velocity to the 54 caliber round ball. He made a shoulder holster for it and carried it across his chest.

Dennis


Interesting! Do you know what year or decade he built it in? Seems like a really interesting gun for range work and hunting. Heck I’d imagine with a 15” or longer barrel and in at least .50 caliber, one could even be used on deer or boar at close range.

So were there larger caliber “bear pistols” available historically? One in .50 with a flintlock and 15” barrel would be really cool! If I had one made (I don’t build myself) I’d like it to look very close to the one in my OP, but of course sans the percussion lock in favor of flint!

Tell me guys, do you think the maple stock would survive the recoil in a caliber like .50?

Dated 1842 or 9 ? on the barrel and he used a Golcher flint lock, says a lot when a gun maker builds a bear pistol and chooses a flintlock instead of a percussion well into the percussion age. You asked about a maple surviving a 50 cal? Certainly, strongest wood normally used for guns of the period.
Dennis
(https://i.ibb.co/hmsP2T1/mg-1842.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nLrHQK8)

(https://i.ibb.co/MZJ9sR1/2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/djH7rQp)

(https://i.ibb.co/RpDrG72/4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/27kV05q)

(https://i.ibb.co/QFVbGzG/21.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bgVWnqn)
Title: Re: Bear Pistols?
Post by: Elnathan on April 06, 2019, 11:13:47 PM
I'm pretty sure that picture came from right here on ALR, in a thread in the Originals section. It was on display at Cade's Cove last fall as part of the Kentucky Rifles of the Smoky Mountains exhibit, and is also pictured in Randall Pierce's book.

I only know of about three original bear pistols: the one you pictured, the Matthew Gillespie pistol that Dennis is talking about (and is pictured in his book on the Gillespies, since he is too modest to mention that), and one that was used by Montraville Plott, pictures of which can be found here and in Bob Plott's book "Strike and Stay: The Story of the Plott Hound." They are all different. Not sure how common they really were, or if there are enough examples to really establish a distinct pattern.

Having said that, I'd like to make on myself one day.
Title: Re: Bear Pistols?
Post by: Daryl on April 07, 2019, 12:44:50 AM
Quote from: Smokey Plainsman on April 06, 2019, 08:32:37 PM

Tell me guys, do you think the maple stock would survive the recoil in a caliber like .50?

This one is .54 and is American Black walnut, no where near as strong or dense as Maple.
It shoots a 220gr. round ball with 55gr. 3F GOEX running 1,000fps. No problems so far.

(https://i.ibb.co/sJM85jQ/54-English-Holster-Pistol-right-side.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cX74bJt)

(https://i.ibb.co/v3DMw8B/Muzzle-54-Eng-Pistol.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fkQT17S)
Title: Re: Bear Pistols?
Post by: bama on April 07, 2019, 12:50:28 AM
I have 3 barrels that are copies of the barrel of the first pistol in this post. I am not going to copy the pistol shown because it has very dainty grip. This pistol was made for a person with very small hands. This pistol was originally built as a flint and mine will also be in flint. The overall architecture of this pistol is very slim and it is very well constructed. One of the most interesting things about this pistol is that the screw that holds the main spring to the trigger plate also attaches the rear of the trigger guard to the trigger plate. The triggers and the guard are built as a unit and come out of the pistol as one piece.
Title: Re: Bear Pistols?
Post by: Davemuzz on April 07, 2019, 01:33:04 AM
Quote from: Smokey Plainsman on April 06, 2019, 08:32:37 PM
Tell me guys, do you think the maple stock would survive the recoil in a caliber like .50?

I built this in 2010, then re-did it this year. I've always shot a 240gr. Pa. Conical using 50gr FFF. I've never had any issues with the curly walnut holding together. And that was with build "cracks" that I did all by myself....with no help from anyone. The caliber is .50 and the barrel is 12" from breech to muzzle. I believe maple is a much stronger wood than the walnut with a lot of curl in it. You should be fine.

(https://i.imgur.com/rh40B6V.jpg)
Title: Re: Bear Pistols?
Post by: B.Barker on April 07, 2019, 01:48:16 AM
Dennis that is one cool bear pistol you have.
Title: Re: Bear Pistols?
Post by: Dennis Glazener on April 07, 2019, 04:29:57 AM
Quote from: B.Barker on April 07, 2019, 01:48:16 AM
Dennis that is one cool bear pistol you have.
I wish it were mine but sadly it's not. I had heard of its existence and tracked down the owner.
Dennis
Title: Re: Bear Pistols?
Post by: Smokey Plainsman on April 07, 2019, 06:06:48 AM
Thanks so much, gang!!

So there were big caliber ones (the .54 mentioned) and small caliber ones, too. Neat!
Title: Re: Bear Pistols?
Post by: Smokey Plainsman on April 07, 2019, 03:57:52 PM
Can anyone list some builders who could reproduce the pistol in my OP? I’d like it as close to it as I can. Research has shown that is a .40 caliber gun and could share ball with my rifle. Thanks!
Title: Re: Bear Pistols?
Post by: Dphariss on April 08, 2019, 11:52:38 PM
Quote from: Dennis Glazener on April 06, 2019, 09:34:57 PM


Dated 1842 or 9 ? on the barrel and he used a Golcher flint lock, says a lot when a gun maker builds a bear pistol and chooses a flintlock instead of a percussion well into the percussion age. You asked about a maple surviving a 50 cal? Certainly, strongest wood normally used for guns of the period.
Dennis
(https://i.ibb.co/hmsP2T1/mg-1842.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nLrHQK8)

(https://i.ibb.co/MZJ9sR1/2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/djH7rQp)

(https://i.ibb.co/RpDrG72/4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/27kV05q)

(https://i.ibb.co/QFVbGzG/21.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bgVWnqn)

Very nice. Thanks for the photos. The longer barrel gives a longer sight radius making it easier to place a shot. Plus a lot more velocity for a given powder charge.

Dan
Title: Re: Bear Pistols?
Post by: Dphariss on April 08, 2019, 11:54:08 PM
May people well into the 1840s did not trust the percussion system and I suspect that it was less accurate unless the caps were very uniform in strength.

Dan
Title: Re: Bear Pistols?
Post by: Mike Brooks on April 09, 2019, 01:09:04 AM
What makes a pistol a bear pistol?
Title: Re: Bear Pistols?
Post by: D. Taylor Sapergia on April 09, 2019, 02:28:48 AM
Up here in Canuckistan we cannot hunt with pistols.  I've shot many bears with muzzle loading guns, but usually prefer a sharp stick and a bow.
Title: Re: Bear Pistols?
Post by: smylee grouch on April 09, 2019, 02:41:38 AM
I think Jim Chambers makes a long (12" ) barreled pistol kit. High quality I,m sure and I think it comes in 50 cal. and maybe others as well.
Title: Re: Bear Pistols?
Post by: Mike Brooks on April 09, 2019, 03:11:31 PM
Quote from: Mike Brooks on April 09, 2019, 01:09:04 AM
What makes a pistol a bear pistol?
I'm still wondering..... ???
Title: Re: Bear Pistols?
Post by: Dennis Glazener on April 09, 2019, 04:35:58 PM
Quote from: Mike Brooks on April 09, 2019, 03:11:31 PM
Quote from: Mike Brooks on April 09, 2019, 01:09:04 AM
What makes a pistol a bear pistol?
I'm still wondering..... ???

Same thing that makes a rifle a bear rifle or a fowler a Turkey gun😊
Title: Re: Bear Pistols?
Post by: Hungry Horse on April 09, 2019, 05:17:50 PM
Bear pistols had long barrels so you could use a two hand hold easily, but also because bears don’t always keg up where you can easily maneuver a long gun. Also, the large powder charges would burn more completely.
 My great uncle like a long barreled pistol for bears, because he often climbed a nearby tree, to get closer to his target, and either rested the barrel on a convenient limb, or wrapped an arm around the trunk, and rested the barrel on his arm. High velocity small calibers are often more successful on close range head shots that heavier calibers, because the small bullet doesn’t exit the skull.

  Hungry Horse
Title: Re: Bear Pistols?
Post by: alacran on April 09, 2019, 06:48:11 PM
Quote from: Dennis Glazener on April 09, 2019, 04:35:58 PM
Quote from: Mike Brooks on April 09, 2019, 03:11:31 PM
Quote from: Mike Brooks on April 09, 2019, 01:09:04 AM
What makes a pistol a bear pistol?
I'm still wondering..... ???

Same thing that makes a rifle a bear rifle or a fowler a Turkey gun😊

Or a Canoe gun, just saying.
Title: Re: Bear Pistols?
Post by: Daryl on April 09, 2019, 07:34:39 PM
Back in the 1800's up into the civil war period, many army-types preferred the .54 calibre or even larger calibre English dueling pistols for 'running' buffalo. I suspect
they might work very well on bears too.
According to Firearms of the American West, that is.
Title: Re: Bear Pistols?
Post by: Davemuzz on April 09, 2019, 11:53:49 PM
Description from Lewis & Clarks encounter with a grizzly bear. (Just because you call it a bear pistol....doesn't mean.......)

On May 14, six men from the Corps of Discovery, “all good hunters,” came upon another grizzly  bear lying in the open about 300 paces from the river. Lewis described what happened next:

they took the advantage of a small eminence which concealed them and got within 40 paces of him unperceived, two of them reserved their fires as had been previously conscerted, the four others fired nearly at the same time and put each his bullet through him, two of the balls passed through the bulk of both lobes of his lungs, in an instant this monster ran at them with open mouth, the two who had reserved their fires discharged their pieces at him as he came towards them, boath of them struck him, one only slightly and the other fortunately broke his shoulder, this however only retarded his motion for a moment only, the men unable to reload their guns took to flight, the bear pursued and had very nearly overtaken them before they reached the river; two of the party betook themselves to a canoe and the others seperated an concealed themselves among the willows, reloaded their pieces, each discharged his piece at him as they had an opportunity they struck him several times again but the guns served only to direct the bear to them, in this manner he pursued two of them seperately so close that they were obliged to throw aside their guns and pouches and throw themselves into the river altho’ the bank was nearly twenty feet perpendicular; so enraged was this anamal that he plunged into the river only a few feet behind the second man he had compelled take refuge in the water, when one of those who still remained on shore shot him through the head and finally killed him; they then took him on shore and butchered him when they found eight balls had passed through him in different directions.
Title: Re: Bear Pistols?
Post by: Daryl on April 10, 2019, 07:17:54 PM
LOL Good account however,  80gr. is all you really need, right?
& 8 hits.
Title: Re: Bear Pistols?
Post by: Hungry Horse on April 10, 2019, 07:30:50 PM
You guys seem to not know the difference between a true bear hunter, and somebody that just stumbles onto a bear while hunting. Most true bear hunters, hunt with dogs, and shoot the bear at close range while treed. At least that’s the way it was done back In the day. They also sometimes went into their dens after them before they became active in the spring. Both of these situations involved a well placed head shot, if everything went as planned.

  Hungry Horse
Title: Re: Bear Pistols?
Post by: Davemuzz on April 10, 2019, 10:52:13 PM
Bear hunting today is different in every state that holds bear, and where they have a legal bear season.

Here in Pennsylvania bear hunting cannot be done with bait, nor the use of dogs. Some hunters just go out to where they "know of" bear. Others do a lot of scouting for the best chance at getting a shot.

I posted the Lewis & Clark diary story as on that first expedition, the L&C group had heard stories of the Grizzly bear and they could not wait to have an encounter with the Grizzly. L&C honestly thought their smoke poles were far superior to arrows and that the Grizzly would fall quickly with their "firepower."  They soon learned why the Grizzly had such a fierce reputation. (Can you imagine running from a 500+lb Grizzly that has been shot many times....and he's really, really angry at his attackers? Gotta wonder what the thinking of the fellow who jumped from a high wall into a river.....only to turn around and find the angry 500-lb bear right behind him!!!  That's one angry bear!!)
Title: Re: Bear Pistols?
Post by: BOB HILL on April 10, 2019, 10:55:10 PM
I think you've got an understanding of how it was done, Horse ol' boy.
Bob
Title: Re: Bear Pistols?
Post by: Daryl on April 10, 2019, 11:10:12 PM
Quote from: Hungry Horse on April 10, 2019, 07:30:50 PM
You guys seem to not know the difference between a true bear hunter, and somebody that just stumbles onto a bear while hunting. Most true bear hunters, hunt with dogs, and shoot the bear at close range while treed. At least that’s the way it was done back In the day. They also sometimes went into their dens after them before they became active in the spring. Both of these situations involved a well placed head shot, if everything went as planned.

  Hungry Horse

Never met a true bear hunter I guess. I've shot a few - ribs and head shots. Both worked a treat. Stopped hunting them when I stopped eating them.
I have no intention to hunt or shoot a grizzly. I have eaten grizzly though - just as good, maybe better than the black bears we ate. Might have been the cloves
but that roast was good.  It was a Spatsizi Park, B.C. bear - big one 9 1/2' square.
It is illegal to use dogs for bear here in BC, too, Dave - as well as shooting them over bait - or even a gut pile can be considered baiting them.
Grizzlies don't normally climb trees, can though - the odd one that is shaped properly.
Only a fool would go into a grizzly's den.  Some stay active all winter, or exit the den now and then throughout the winter season
so do not go into a deep sleep like black bears.
The G-bears are not true hibernators, but do, apparently enjoy a late fall or winter meal of a denned,  black bear.

This discussion reminded me of Julus Baishev, a young native lad from Yakutsk, Siberia. He was an exchange student here at UNBC while my daughters were a the University.
We took him out hunting for a day, a drive about and grouse hunt,actually and he saw more game, moose and deer than he'd ever seen in a month at home. We had a grouse supper
which was wonderful, of course. Julus (pronounced dooloose) told us of bear hunting 'at home'. Their bears are actually in-land grizzlies, very similar in most ways to ours. They are hunted
in the winter by finding a den, then the youngest/newest member of the hunters has to crawl into the den, wake the bear, then he gets pulled out by a rope around his feet before the bear can grab
him. When the bear emerges, they other 'hunters' all shoot it with their 12 bores loaded with slugs.
Julus said he was lucky, only had to do  that once.  The 'bait' is rarely grabbed by the bear, he said, but if he is, it's usually bad as the head is usually grabbed.
Title: Re: Bear Pistols?
Post by: snapper on April 10, 2019, 11:44:33 PM
I cooked up some griz loins in butter dredged with flour and salt/pepper on the one I shot a few years ago.  Tasted so bad that I had to boil water to make supper from freeze dried food.

We were way North of the Arctic Circle about 8 days into the hunt and at 10 pm at night after a hard day in the bush you will eat most anything, but we could not eat that meat.  One taste and we were spitting it out. 

Fleener
Title: Re: Bear Pistols?
Post by: Elnathan on April 11, 2019, 03:26:34 AM
Those bear pistols are from the southern Appalachians, most from right where I grew up and live today, as a matter of fact. Taint no grizzlies here, just black bear. We do have an abundance of rhododendron thickets and steep hillsides, though, and it isn't hard to figure out why a guy might prefer a pistol to a rifle if he was expecting to be scrambling through and up them.

Black bear were important food sources here, as they are one of the few animals other than hogs to carry much fat. Bear oil useful both for food and for preserving and lubricating metal, and the Cherokee used it as a wood preservative too.