AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: R.J.Bruce on April 11, 2019, 07:27:45 AM
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I know that some members here participate on The Muzzleloading Forum.
I do not have the memory in my phone to open an account on the forum, so I am posting here in hopes of a reply until such time that I can open an account and post over there.
In the Smoothbores section of that forum there is a lot of talk about the Skychief load.
Said load is the powder charge, a 1/8" hard card wad (not felt, cork, cushion, or anything else), the shot charge, a thin overshot card wad, and finally a 1/2" fiber cushion wad that is completely soaked in olive oil (and not squeezed out).
Against all the laws of ballistics, as well as what people think should, or should not, work; the Skychief load seems to repeatedly give extra full and super full choke patterns at 40-50 yards from a cylinder bore gun. This is in the larger bores from 20 gauge to 10 gauge.
My question to anyone here that has used the load is do you think it would work with a 33 gauge, 0.520" diameter smoothbore?
Ballistics Products sells 32 gauge, 0.530" diameter, hard nitro card wads (0.125" thick), overshot card wads (0.030"-0.040" thick), and fiber cushion wads (0.500" thick).
I am trying to assemble the parts for a riff on Mike Brooks's Game Creeper's rifle that he built for himself back in 2016.
It would have Manton percussion 13/16" hooked breechplugs attached to 27" long octagon barrels tapering from 0.8125" to 0.7045".
One barrel would be rifled in .45 caliber, and I was considering a 33 gauge smoothbore for turkeys and other small game.
Any comments would be appreciated. Thanks,
R.J.Bruce
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Skychief is on this forum too so he may chime in. I think Britsmoothy, who is also on that forum and does a lot of hunting with a .45 smooth rifle, has used the Skychief load with success. I'll try to figure a way to post your question to him.
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I've never heard of such a load, but am willing to pattern it in my 20 bore. It has a slight choke and shoots modified patterns now,
so perhaps we'll have to test this is a couple of Taylor's guns, like the 15 bore Manton & his 20 bore, both without chokes & in need of better patterns.
Got some patch-less round ball loads to test as well.
My magnet peep sights arrived, so aiming with the round balls will kinda be like cheating.
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I am very familiar with the Skychief load as it is a hot topic on the M/L Forum. Everyone that tries it expecting the wad to blow the pattern is surprised when their load tightens up.
I had Caywood jug choke two 12ga barrels for me, I gave one to a friend and kept one. My friend's barrels choke was cut perfectly and shoots a great, tight pattern, mine was apparently poorly done and never shot a pattern better than modified with any wad/powder combo.
My first attempt at a Skychief load was disappointing but I put a dry cushion wad over the shot. I tried 2 1/8" hard cards and got a little better success but not what I had hoped for.
Just before turkey season I gave it another try, lubing the 1/2" wad this time. First I put the wads in a bowl of olive oil and heated them in the microwave to saturate them, too much oil, they were a mess to load.
For my last few shots I just rolled the wad in the olive oil quickly, it still absorbed the oil like a sponge and loaded without the oil dripping down the sides of my barrel.
OK, here it is, from a barrel that never shot a tight pattern; 90 gr of 1F, 4 thin cereal box wads (wheaties) 1 1/2 oz #6 shot and a 1/2" oiled cushion wad over the shot, 27 yards, the total pattern is about 18" in diameter at that distance. I edited the picture, the one I initially put up was not the one I shot the other day and might have been shot twice.
(https://i.ibb.co/BPKCGhP/turkey-2019.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fSGx93S)
My buddie's gun with the perfect jug choke will shoot about the same pattern at 35-40 yards with the Skychief load.
Here is the printable turkey target I use;
http://www.guncustomizing.com/targprt.htm
Here is my pattern at 25 yards before the Skychief load, probably copper plated #4s, still pretty thin. I didn't have the camera's date set correctly;
(https://i.ibb.co/t8fvL1x/new-fowler-best-shot-pattern.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nz2YPKn)
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Not wanting to sidetrack this threqad, but it just came to me that the oil may be the reason for these loads working;
half the pellets in a load seem to contact the barrel walls, and get abraded to some degree, so if the oil causes them to slide and prevent damage, the resulting pattern could be better.
I was always going to try this load but not got at it yet.
RJ-B,
In a small calibre, the shot column is longer (In proportion)than in a larger bore, so usually more proportional pellet damage ensues, so this load is very worth a try!
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This has been debated on the other forums many times, yes I have tried it in different bore sizes and found no difference maybe it is best on repro guns has I only use the original Damascus barrels guns . All I can say is try it and if you are satisfied with the result ok us it that is what muzzle loading shotgun is all about
Feltwad
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You may be right, I remember the infamous "Roundball" on the M/L forum said he would heavilly grease up the inside of his barrel after he loaded to limit shot deformation.
He had a lot of good information to share but for some reason a bunch of the members stayed on him like a duck on a junebug, calling him to task on everything he put out and picking keyboard fights with him. He finally got sick of it and dropped off the radar.
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You may be right, I remember the infamous "Roundball" on the M/L forum said he would heavilly grease up the inside of his barrel after he loaded to limit shot deformation.
He had a lot of good information to share but for some reason a bunch of the members stayed on him like a duck on a junebug, calling him to task on everything he put out and picking keyboard fights with him. He finally got sick of it and dropped off the radar.
Yes it happened to me a year ago on that forum I was called some names, I still answer some questioned but not has much has used to ,it is best to walk away.
Feltwad
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R.J., the smallest smoothbore I have is a 20 gauge, so can not comment firsthand regarding results using the load in the smaller guns.
Hope that you will give it a try and find success with it.
Best regards, Skychief.
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You just never know, until you try it, R.J. Bruce, with any gun.
Be prepared to experiment a bit with different options, wads,
wad placement, powder and shot charge. I've hear some guys
say 3F gave better, patterns, others 2F and some 1F. The gun will
decide.
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Daryl is right.....with shotguns, there seems to be no absolutes. I had a 44" turkey choked colerain. Not picky. Shot a nice pattern with most anything I dumped down it....really shined with a load similar to what a buddy shot in his 38" version....Didn't like cleaning it and had it bored out and jugged. Cleaned and loaded easier...but boy she got picky. Learned what it liked and it shoots pretty decent. Built a 38" turkey choked gun.....now it's being picky lol.
I've fired countless test loads from these 3 barrels. No joke I've fired around 15 pounds of shot now lol.
I enjoy patterning though. So many different variables to experiment with.
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The lube on the bore would seem to be part of it. But the weight/mass of the saturated wad seems to be a factor for some reason as well. Those getting the best results with this load seem to report the big improvement in patterns to be when the wad is thoroughly soaked and heavy. Some have opined that the shot is "drafting" behind the heavy wad.
O.P. as Skychief has not chimed in here yet (you could try sending him a p.m.) I will copy and paste your question to a message to Britsmoothy who takes much game with his .45 smoothrifle.
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The small smoothbores do seem to produce a tighter shot pattern, and retain it at longer range. I built my then young son ( about 25 years ago) a miniature northwest tradegun from an old .410 barrel. The barrel was only about 18” long, but the little gun shocked us when we filled it with shot. You could pulverize a clay bird with it at 30 yards. I know the shot column in these small bore smoothies are long, but would that make much difference shooting turkeys? I don’t think there are any regulations here on how small the bore size can be on a turkey gun.
I have an antique never used smoothbore barrel that is 30” long, and about 47 caliber. I am tempted to build a turkey gun out of it just for fun.
Hungry Horse
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Brokennock,
Skychief posted above, reply #8.
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Now I’m really getting excited about some of these theory’s. I never thought about lubing the bore of a shotgun to reduce friction, and abrasions to the shot. And since shotguns don’t need the load to grip any kind of riflings, the whole shooting slick issue is off the table. So obviously you need the slickest lube, that isn’t adversely affected by heat, and doesn’t impart some sort of toxicity to whatever you shoot. Olive oil obviously works, but what about a more modern lube that creates an even slicker film on the inside of the barrel. The first one that comes to mind is PermaTex super lube. This stuff is really slick, comes in a grease form, or aerosol cans, and is food grade, so it’s nontoxic.
I use super lube in my locks because it doesn’t have any kind of color in it that creeps into, and out of all different places on a gun where you don’t want it. I don’t know why I never thought about using it as a lube for shotgun wads.
Hungry Horse
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I posted the entire o.p. in a private message to Britsmoothy on the m.l. forum last night/this morning.
Here is his response,
"In my .63 it does indeed work. Not to full choke performance mind!
I am not very scientific when it comes to testing, I just observe the occasional target should I wish to etc.
My little .45 I have not tried as I don't have any thick wads. Only cards, leather and felt.
My 12g's and Bess show similar advantages to using a heavy wet wad up front.
I don't really use a nitro card, instead I prefere a few thin cards on the powder.
Sorry I can not help with the feller's question but I am sure it would make some difference and be an advantage to improving the pattern.
Nathan"
Sorry it doesn't help much with your original small bore question. Try it and see what happens, it can't hurt.
I am thinking of melting some wax in a double boiler and dipping the soaked wads in the wax then letting the wax harden to reduce the mess of the soaked wads.
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Hey Brokennock, I replied above just like Pukka pointed out. :D
Best regards, Skychief.
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Hey Brokennock, I replied above just like Pukka pointed out. :D
Best regards, Skychief.
Ya, I saw that after I wrote my post. Not sure how I missed it. Maybe my eyes could use some time with that later too.
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;)
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The lube on the bore would seem to be part of it. But the weight/mass of the saturated wad seems to be a factor for some reason as well. Those getting the best results with this load seem to report the big improvement in patterns to be when the wad is thoroughly soaked and heavy. Some have opined that the shot is "drafting" behind the heavy wad.
O.P. as Skychief has not chimed in here yet (you could try sending him a p.m.) I will copy and paste your question to a message to Britsmoothy who takes much game with his .45 smoothrifle.
When I pattern using donna-conna 1/2" wads, there are always wad holes in the target.
If the shot was 'drafting' behind that heavy wad, there would be wad holes in these targets posted.
I see none, which seems really strange, to me.
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Thanks for all the input and comments.
When I get this gun built I will definitely try the Skychief load in it.
BritSmoothy--- Track of the Wolf here in the USA sells both 0.455" diameter and 0.460" diameter wads that you could use to try the Skychief load in your .45 caliber smooth rifle.
They have the 0.500" thick vegetable fiber wads, a 0.125" thick nitro card wad, and a 0.025" thick over shot card wad in those diameters.
Best regards,
R.J.Bruce
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RJ,
When I was still in the Uk, I bought a Pedersoli "Kentucky" rifle smooth bored as that way we could have it on a shotgun certificate.
It seemed just a toy when it arrived and didn't keep it long, but did fire it with both a ball and shot.
I remember once I shot a fox with it, and although only small shot was used, the pattern was V tight for some reason. Fox was only maybe 20 yards off, but all the pellets seemed to hit him in a fist-sized pattern.
I skinned him so could see the pattern on his hide well enough.
No skychief loads invented back then! (maybe 1971 or '2.)
Seeing what works is what counts as smoothbores are all individuals.
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I had a .44 cal. smooth rifle that I ground a jug choke into the muzzle, about 1" back from the end of the barrel. I used a small sized brake cylinder hone with the small stones for this job.
Worked a treat and shot 45gr. 3F, card, then 3" .410 shot-cup full of #8's, almost 3/4oz then thin card. It patterned better than any modern .410 shotgun.
Back in 1981, I think it was, I broke 10 clay birds straight with it shooting against 20, some 12's and a 10 bore SxS at the local rendezvous. I used it with patched
round balls for bunny hunting as well and was good to about 50yards. It shot amazingly well.
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RJ,
When I was still in the Uk, I bought a Pedersoli "Kentucky" rifle smooth bored as that way we could have it on a shotgun certificate.
It seemed just a toy when it arrived and didn't keep it long, but did fire it with both a ball and shot.
I remember once I shot a fox with it, and although only small shot was used, the pattern was V tight for some reason. Fox was only maybe 20 yards off, but all the pellets seemed to hit him in a fist-sized pattern.
I skinned him so could see the pattern on his hide well enough.
No skychief loads invented back then! (maybe 1971 or '2.)
Seeing what works is what counts as smoothbores are all individuals.
I believe that is the smoothrifle Britsmoothy is using. Wish I could find one here in the U.S.
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Brokennock,
The locks aren't really brilliant and I was quite pleased when I traded it off, as it hadn't the feel of a "real" gun.
No relation at all to a proper Long-rifle.
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I went rummaging through my parts pile and not only found the .47 cal. Oct/rnd, Smoothbore barrel I was looking for, but also found a .28 gauge and a .24 gauge antique unused shotgun barrels from a Friends estate. Now I have to decide which one to build.
Hungry Horse
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In my 16 gauge Fowler with 44 inch barrel, I tried 80 gr 1F then 0.023 over powder card
1.5 oz #5 lead (110 gr volume) then 0.023 card over shot and 3 piece of felt maple syrup
Filter full of Olive oil. This made about 3/8 inch for felt with the three pieces.
Shot the oiled wad go right over the shot?
Thanks
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In my 16 gauge Fowler with 44 inch barrel, I tried 80 gr 1F then 0.023 over powder card
1.5 oz #5 lead (110 gr volume) then 0.023 card over shot and 3 piece of felt maple syrup
Filter full of Olive oil. This made about 3/8 inch for felt with the three pieces.
Shot the oiled wad go right over the shot?
Thanks
and - the pattern percentage at 40 or 25 yards was ??%
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I think the oiled wad should go directly over the shot, NH.
Daryl,
I don't know if it's altitude, but back home (70 feet above sea level) my old guns all seemed to shoot 40 % patterns at 40 yards, but here they shoot thinner with the same load. (3200 feet) Seems wrong really, as thinner air should reduce pressure.
Powder back then was C & Harvey's no 2 or No 6. The C & H I have here is marked 1F but is Very fine looking.
Goex also produces thinner patterns here..
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40% is thin - sounds cyl. to me - weaker patterns would not work well at all.
Don't know about the elevation - humidity might have more to do with it, Richard.
The C&H 1f from the 70's was quite fine, while Meteor 1F looked like really small pea gravel.
I am going to try some of these & a variety of wad column loads in my 20 bore choked gun - maybe Taylor's cylinder bored gun as well.
We found a load that worked well in his Manton 15 bore, using a standard wad column. It has no chokes. Like Mike B. noted, it's a matter
of experimentation with both shot and powder charges. You can, of course add in powder granulation differences as well as makes of powder into the equation.
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Is 1.5 oz of shot reasonable for 16 gauge?
Is it common to use more like 1.75 oz in a 16?
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Is 1.5 oz of shot reasonable for 16 gauge?
Is it common to use more like 1.75 oz in a 16?
1 1/2oz is a very heavy load, in my opinion for a 16 bore gun.
I shoot 1 1/8oz in my 20 bore as a heavy load.
I would say that 1 1/2oz is a normal heavy load for a 12 bore,
thus 1 1/4oz would be my load for a 16.
If you need tighter patterns, work on the load dynamics and components
rather than pouring in a 12 bore load.
Post-it note paper is great for making up 'ctgs.' of shot. Experiment with them
at various ranges.
Back in the percussion period, up to 1875's or so or so, Ely was making shot ctgs.
for muzzleloading shotguns that were colour coded for effective game shooting at
various ranges. You can do the same, using bank-roller tubes, stressed so they
release shot, or the post-it notes formed into shot containers- reinforced or split
weakened, whatever is needed to adjust patterns.
I am not suggesting you make Ely ctgs. rather use the ideas to make your own. These
rather elaborate ctgs. in the green colour (colour co-ordinated) were good to 80 or 90 yards
for birds, but shot like bullets/slugs to 60yards for wolves and deer.
Oh yeah - just in case you thought shot buffering materials were something new. Very little
that is being used today, is actually a new idea.
I am aware the 'shot basket' in the picture notes breech loaders. These were also made earlier
as I noted, for use in muzzleloading smoothbores.
(https://i.ibb.co/mN4x3BQ/Ely-Ctg.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kmXdtyY)
(https://i.ibb.co/wL8fPT1/Ely-Ctg-Explanation.jpg) (https://ibb.co/n04FYTS)
role a dice (https://freeonlinedice.com/)
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Daryl,
With a true cylinder, all we can hope for normally is a 40% pattern at 40 yards.
This is a very killing pattern (if well distributed) over a 30 inch circle.
What this means, is that for birds like ducks, and using English No 4, is that we should bag them out to 40 yards nearly every time, providing we shoot straight.
For game like pheasants and partridges, and using say No 6 or 7 shot, we should also be good out to 40 yards and I might add that that is how it worked back home. Here, I need to experiment, as patterns have failed before 30 yards very often.
As for shot and powder charges in a M-loader, it is (according to Hawker) judged by the shoulder more than anything else, and he reccomended 1 1./2 ounces for a 14 to 22 bore, with same measure of powder. (Bulk not weight!) :-)
Most charges we see now are for B-P cartridge guns, and much lighter than in the M-loading day.
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First, I would like to thank everyone that has replied to this thread for the information so freely offered.
I have never owned a smoothbore muzzleloading firearm, and the info here at ALR really makes me want to get one and start learning!!
Daryl, re. the paper-wrapped, copper mesh basket, Ely cartridges....do you think that similar results might be achieved by using a paper-wrapped, modern plastic shot cup??
My thinking is that the paper would eliminate the plastic melting and fouling the bore; and the shot cup would act to extend the range as did the copper mesh baskets in the 19th Century Ely cartridges.
Just a thought from a complete novice!!
Regards,
R.J.Bruce
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I understand where you are coming from, Richard, however there are some things we can do to improve our patterns by not using bare shot.
About the modern plastic shot cup - some use it all the time. I tested them and found I did not like the plastic melted onto the bore from the
base of the wad. This happened in the ML as well as in BP loads in shot shells.
If using a plastic wad, you must protect the plastic base from the flame of the powder by using an 1/8" hard card wad. The wad will help keep
the shot together longer than if fired bare out of the bore.
You can experiment with varying heights of tape on the outside or better yet, inside of the shot cup, to further contain some of the shot which
will increase the centre percentage of shot in the pattern. Experiment with shooting no tape, 1/4" of tape, 1/2" etc. placed on the inside, so it
does not scrub and get removed on the way out the bore. You need it to act to keep the shot together longer. You should, using this method
be able to make 'eley'-type ctgs for your pellet shooter.
Swedish Cup Wads were used for this purpose in early ctgs., shaped like this U with a fairly thick base for use in cylinder bores to increase
pattern percentages. As well, normal fiber wads were used with a 3/8" hold punched or cut form the middle, to hold a quantity of shot to increase
shot count on targets. Greener spoke of this "cheat" in the patterning trials.
From outfits like Ballistic Products sells all sorts of things that have the POTENTIAL to improve your pellet shooting pleasure.
https://www.ballisticproducts.com/Wads/departments/83/
https://www.ballisticproducts.com/Wraps-Inserts/departments/513/
https://www.ballisticproducts.com/Card-Filler-Wads/departments/211/
www.trackofthewolf.com also sells wads of MANY different sizes.
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If you do not want to use a cushion base wad, you can also buy just the shot cup, or simply cut off the base cushion, loading your 1/8" or 1/4" over-shot card wad first.
Shot cups can be carried in pocket or pouch pre-filled with shot, taped and loaded as a single 'shell'.
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Daryl,
You are quite right in your post above about improving patterns.
I was meaning what we can normally expect with a good load used ina traditional/plain old fashioned manner. (How they did it "back then".
Even reducing the powder charge will tighten things up a lot.
Busy in the fields, so I best get going!
Richard.
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We found a 'standard' load for Taylor's Manton, but it took a bit of experimentation to get it. This 15 bore
has no chokes.
Mike Brooks does the same, using standard wad columns - it takes experimentation with many adjustments
made and RECORDED.
The easiest method to almost instant good patterning, is to have the barrel jug choked.
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Daryl,
Some of the old long barrels bored " friction and relief" shot very well.
My guns are all but one antiques, so jugging them is out, but if I could get my old 40% pattern back, I would be happy, as not much should escape then, out to about 40 yards. :-)
Need to play with them as you say, and find what's different here to there!
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In an old HWahl 11 bore, I used 3 drams, 2 overshot thin cards, 1 1/4oz reclaimed 8's and overshot card over that.
I won a trap shoot with it at rendezvous, powdering some of the birds, but they were close.
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That sounds like a good load, Daryl!