AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: Stoner creek on April 21, 2019, 04:29:58 AM
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I was fortunate enough to obtain this piece from another ALR member recently. I took it to the Tn./KY. Rifle show in Knoxville last week wanting some inspiration and insight on the origin and age of this rifle. The answers that I got were all over the board regarding it’s origin. It’s age was fairly consistent. What I am asking is your opinion. Any opinions are welcome and appreciated.
First let me tell you what we do know: it was made from American walnut. The mounts were not cast. The butt plate was hammered from a single piece of fairly thin brass and the trigger guard is made from at least 7 pieces of sheet brass. The barrel is its original length 26 1/4” , .58 cal.. the lock and rear sight all are imported with the rear sight having an elevation leaf. Any other statistics you can find in RCA VOLUME 1 page 70. Inside the patchbox lid is an inscription from 1864 which could be a good argument for the gun being here at that date and not coming across the Atlantic after either of the Great Wars. Please give me your thoughts! Every opinion matters!!
(https://i.ibb.co/G32GHzs/BF59-CE95-CB54-4935-A51-E-01460-AB5-FE27.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rf6qdDb)
(https://i.ibb.co/bJPxczw/6-C8-ABC45-4576-41-EE-9-CAD-9-E3800066048.jpg) (https://ibb.co/BNtm0qW)
(https://i.ibb.co/dLNCr5r/FC38-E344-6923-4319-8072-695-CD4676917.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cCWf1r1)
(https://i.ibb.co/PQqsZ0Q/60-BCFC19-F648-4435-9-EB8-1804855-D44-C1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vY0CxRY)
(https://i.ibb.co/wyN8hQr/1-F906083-A2-CA-4-B21-A954-69-E3826-BD6-C4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/31yVmFY)
(https://i.ibb.co/VqXywGp/145-F4133-2020-4-B47-A823-2479332-CCF1-C.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rwnPdhf)
(https://i.ibb.co/6PFtmSx/7-A9-C1295-BBE0-48-D6-B293-41-AEC43045-F1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fpHN2W5)
(https://i.ibb.co/fFC0RXL/6-F700227-AB34-4-BFD-9-C7-C-61-D13-CEF1833.jpg) (https://ibb.co/2hjK2FH)
(https://i.ibb.co/wSrygpn/69-E23-A2-E-C9-A6-4741-93-DF-96988448-E8-BD.jpg) (https://ibb.co/GW37pCZ)
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More pictures
(https://i.ibb.co/55frzVN/3-FE3-FC82-5-D3-F-43-D4-A6-C0-3-FF23-E51-FC96.jpg) (https://ibb.co/30Lp8HD)
(https://i.ibb.co/BKSfHt8/77-D5-C417-CDCA-4025-BDF6-C7-DEC70618-F9.jpg) (https://ibb.co/PzfrsNB)
(https://i.ibb.co/31JsrtK/08770-FE4-98-EE-4-B76-8-DAE-CB9-E3-DE73976.jpg) (https://ibb.co/D4qbV3d)
(https://i.ibb.co/MNh49B2/73-D82284-C16-F-4-E08-A6-FB-AC2-E678-D1-BDD.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ysR1V4f)
(https://i.ibb.co/8DMTbMz/A9919125-1188-4-E71-860-D-1-D8627-BBB682.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3y1Gv1f)
(https://i.ibb.co/L009YBg/A023-A68-F-8121-42-E1-A857-4-F1-A4-FAADCD0.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zmmPQC2)
(https://i.ibb.co/DkPyHxL/79-A1514-D-380-C-4-BD1-8-E28-A0-EB306-DE24-D.jpg) (https://ibb.co/d6sqwd7)
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Congratulations! Have often admired the RCA black and white version. Nice to see some more photos. The made up trigger guard is very interesting. Still trying to figure out where all the joints are. So barrel shows no evidence of shortening huh?
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Before we knew for sure that it is stocked in American Black Walnut the question about whether it was a provincial German rifle or was stocked here was perhaps 50:50. Now in my view it is 80:20 stocked here:stocked there. Maybe more than that.
It really is nicely stocked up using a quite early lock and barrel. The form of the buttstock as it flows into the wrist reminds me of the “tulip rifle”. It’s hard for me to imagine who in the colonies would want such a short barreled barrel and old lock stocked up after, say, 1760, but reasoning doesn’t always work.
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First I'll ask , Hey Wayne, let's see the inside of that lock!
Then I'll speak for Wayne, yes the barrel is full length as it is. It is a swamped barrel and has an excellent bore and according to a previous owner shoots quite well. roughly 1 twist in the length of the barrel.
I believe this rifle was made by a jolly German fellow fresh off the boat. There is also a fowling gun out there that is a twin to this gun....I believe it's in a Whisker book called "EARLY AMERICAN FLINTLOCKS". I believe this smith made guns in Europe and the Colonies.
Notice the interesting flat bottomed box, it's wider at the bottom than the top.
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Mike you're absolutely correct, there is another piece clearly made by the same guy. It was at a KRA show a number of years ago if I recall correctly. It's really quite an interesting little rifle and I think it's importance as what may be a very early American-made rifle has been somewhat overshadowed by other stuff. Interesting - to my mind - is that in 1864 it was in Easton. Is that name C (or G) Sugert?
I've had some German-made work here also with the hardware being riveted/brazed up in pieces. I have a pistol now with a brass guard made in three pieces. I'd be interested in seeing not just something of a breakdown or sketch of how the guard here is joined together but also would be interested in seeing the inside of that buttplate, and the butt end of the stock under it.'
Anyway THANKS for the good photos and congratulations on an awesome acquisition!
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There was a C.F. Sugert of Easton who was awarded a 'diploma' by the Pennsylvania Agricultural Society for his display at the Philadelphia society exhibition in 1857. "Best display of white chemical, erasive and other soaps and candles."
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Good call Brooks!
Here’s a look at the lock. Note the placement of the fly within the tumbler. I also enjoyed seeing the file marks on the bottom of the main spring.
(https://i.ibb.co/jVJLnP0/41-CE2-C3-C-4-EAE-437-A-BD82-A4-B061845-E56.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Jx3zDw6)
(https://i.ibb.co/sVng0Y6/A522958-E-F9-E3-4-E66-854-C-DB1-C29927-CE0.jpg) (https://ibb.co/pLc1tFR)
(https://i.ibb.co/QKwY9RS/185405-A1-B991-4-B70-AB31-8-F0401-E771-EA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0GbYqS4)
(https://i.ibb.co/pf2LKwC/288-D0034-FB36-45-A5-A30-B-7-D44-B5-CFAE19.jpg) (https://ibb.co/JvnsptX)
(https://i.ibb.co/1qJyL7d/06-D7-E057-2-CD7-40-E3-AE12-715-B2-DA8-EB30.jpg) (https://ibb.co/BZKWtcr)
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There was a C.F. Sugert of Easton who was awarded a 'diploma' by the Pennsylvania Agricultural Society for his display at the Philadelphia society exhibition in 1857. "Best display of white chemical, erasive and other soaps and candles."
Eric, Thanks for the information. It adds to the old guns’ history.
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Hi,
RCA 1 indicates the wood was determined to be black walnut. Was that done by the USFS wood anatomy research center in Madison, Wisconsin?
dave
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I also think made here by then recent immigrant from some part of Europe.
But, just to throw it out there, I vaguely recall a fad in Great Britain for copying Germanic style rifles...is it possible that the same thing caught on here or was carried on by an English immigrant?
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Eric, the buttplate is quite thin and forged over a form from a single sheet. The wood beneath is flat on the rear, but on the tang area is fitted closely to the brass, as if the buttplate is a thin veneer. The face of the buttplate was once domed but has since flattened since there is not wood beneath to support it.
I puzzled over this rifle for several years and like Mike Brooks concluded that a trained maker from Germany had set up shop over here with tools and a supply of locks brought with him. The lock seems to predate the rifle by 20 years or so.o
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I see this rifle has that "hogged out" patchbox with no wood between the buttplate and the forward part of the cavity. It's my understanding that this a highly unusual feature on American rifles and so far only noted on RCA 19 and the so-called "sister rifle" (assuming the sister rifle was made over here)?
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That "hogged out" box cavity is a German feature, but there is no reason at all to think that German immigrants in America would initially build a rifle differing in design from the familiar German patterns. The evolution of a more distinct American form did not result from a German desire to evolve, for the Germans in Germany clung to traditional designs for at least another century. The demand for changes in the design of traditional German rifles came from Scots-Irish frontiersmen who were major customers and who demanded practical changes to better suit their hunting requirements far to the West. Presumably the closed box cavity proved more practical for American hunters, just as a smaller bore and longer barrel proved more efficient.
The only feature of this rifle which is probably not original is the finely made iron rammer. Frederick the Great did not introduce the iron rammer for military arms until the 1740s, the same decade in which this rifle was made. I think the original rammer must have been wood, and this heavy iron rammer dates to about the same period as the patchbox inscription. The barrel is about .58 caliber and takes a .575 patched ball. The rammer is threaded to accept standard 3/16"x24 Model 1855 worm and ball puller, readily available in the 1860s. I don't believe that is coincidental.
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I see this rifle has that "hogged out" patchbox with no wood between the buttplate and the forward part of the cavity. It's my understanding that this a highly unusual feature on American rifles and so far only noted on RCA 19 and the so-called "sister rifle" (assuming the sister rifle was made over here)?
Just to make clear, I wouldn't describe that box as "Hogged out". It is very precisely executed in a very professional manner, nothing crude about the way it was done. Although I agree that by American longrifle standards the term "hogged out" may apply as this is a big box cavity. This is one of those guns when you have it in hand it is difficult to put down, a lot to see in hand and in person.
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Old parts restocked by George Shroyer (sp) ? :-\
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Hi,
Since nobody answered, I'll ask again. How was it determined that the stock was black walnut?
dave
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There is a lot to ponder, Mike. On those big, open at the back German box cavities, I have yet to look at one that showed evidence of ever carrying grease or greased patches. I had a wheel lock once with ungreased, triangular, coarse linen patches in the box, but I have come to believe they may have mostly served as tool boxes, much as were boxes on the 1803 rifles. At least some American box cavities we're filled with grease, as I have an old stock full of grease that has dried to the consistency of wax. Different uses demanded changes in design. Old rifles are fun, aren't they?
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Hi,
Since nobody answered, I'll ask again. How was it determined that the stock was black walnut?
dave
I can only assume that it’s owner at the time that Shumway researched the piece or Shumway himself had the wood tested. George mentioned it as such and I would doubt that he would publish without some large degree of certancy. As it’s new keeper, I would have no problem having the wood tested. If indeed it were confirmed as American walnut (juglins nigra) my question would still remain. This thread is getting good! Thanks all!!!
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By "hogged out" I didn't mean to imply it was poorly done but I've seen that term used in relation to the patchbox being cut out right to the buttplate without leaving that bridge of wood.
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By "hogged out" I didn't mean to imply it was poorly done but I've seen that term used in relation to the patchbox being cut out right to the buttplate without leaving that bridge of wood.
Yep, I understood what you meant. Just wanted to make clear for others the quality of the box. You never know what people might think about the term Hogged out with out an explanation.
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I think the number of definitively American boxes carved out in this manner (clear to buttplate, regardless of round vs. square bottom) are surely less than 10. Deschler's rifle is cut like this, Cowan's short rifle of course, the cherry parts rifle in RCA2, #42. I think I recall maybe one or two others but it's certainly much more commonly seen in surviving German rifles. "Surviving" being the key word there. Possibly, it's an earlier characteristic and the rifles it was used upon here just simply have not survived in any quantity.
I could easily see this rifle as being either American or German - it's really a toss up although if the black walnut stock were verified it would much more likely clinch it for me. My *guess* is that when George made note of it being black walnut in RCA1, that's what he was told by the owner and so that's what he noted. Maybe some more detailed information as to the testing might be available from a previous owner.
FWIW, I think it's a really nice early little piece, although by 'early' I would personally place it perhaps in the 1760s or early 1770s. I really don't see it being earlier and I don't think that lock really predates the 1760s. For some reason I can't quite put my finger upon, I wonder if the lock may possibly be French or Belgian. Certainly enough import locks and barrels were very easily available here from merchants in larger towns and cities from all over, prior to the War. If it's American, I suspect the lock and barrel were purchased and the stocker made up the brassware needed.
The reason I think it interesting to potentially attempt to research 1864 owner is that the rifle appears to be in extremely fine condition, which may indicate very light or little use. I say this with the caveat that I know nothing of any possible restoration work. It's been my experience that pieces in such condition are potentially more likely (of course not "always," just more likely) to have passed down in families - William Marshall's Oerter rifle is a good example of this and there are others. Maybe it's just a wild thought but since it's known who had the rifle in 1864, possibly a "mere" hundred years after it's birth, it's possible that by working back through his genealogy a bit might put you closer to a maker or original owner/location. Just a bit of a curious diversion - on rare occasion it pays off.
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Quite clearly a canoe gun... ;) :o ;D
This is the kind of stuff that I come to ALR for... Congrats to Stoner creek on the acquisition, and thanks so much for sharing these color views of this old treasure with us. I, too, suspect a European 'smith new in the colonies making this gun here mid-18th Century. In a Pennsylvania family for a century before being spruced up during the War Between the States in case of any more invading greycoats? Is that "G" Sugert? If only these old things could talk!
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I believe it’s a C but could well be a G. No second initial.
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Thank you for sharing this fine rifle. It is a beautiful piece. I'm interested in the sling attachments. I see the rear one. What can you tell me about them? Were they added later or are they more standard to a continental Europe build?
James
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Great rifle, thanks for the pics and info! You gotta be proud!
Curtis
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Thank you for sharing this fine rifle. It is a beautiful piece. I'm interested in the sling attachments. I see the rear one. What can you tell me about them? Were they added later or are they more standard to a continental Europe build?
James
I cannot accurately answer this question. The stock forward of the entry pipe has some restoration so the front sling stirrup is missing. There is a sister to this piece which appears to have the same sling stud in the toe.
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Really nice to see these color pictures. Thanks for sharing Wayne.
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From my limited experience in having wood tested, the results will not indicate whether walnut is American or European.
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Hi Wayne,
That is why I asked the question about testing earlier. That is my understanding as well about microscopic examination of wood fibers. There may be features of Juglans nigra and Juglans regia that make species identification from fibers possible but am just speculating. I believe it is possible with a sufficiently large piece of wood for examination but that is not usually the case with tiny sample fragments submitted to the Wood Anatomy Center. The species of wood seems to be so critical to the discussion of this rifle so I wondered how the species of wood was determined.
dave
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Concerning walnut species analysis, I contacted the wood lab in Wisconsin a year or so ago about this. The testing is still available, but the best expert has retired. I called him, and I recall that he reported that the wood has to be clean (not oil soaked) and the bigger the better. However a short match stick size piece split out and running with the grain can be enough for a determination in most cases. ( Under the butt plate seems like a really good place to get a specimen.) He has to see certain features to make the determination. If those features are present, the ID is quite certain. If they are absent from a small piece, the determination is a bit less certain. The retired expert would do the test privately for $50 per piece of wood. The lab does it for free, I recall.
Note: All this is from my recollections. My notes are in my files and I am rushing to work right now. If somebody is interested, I can provide contact details past East Coast bedtime tonight.
Bill Paton, Anchorage, Alaska
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Although not the gold standard a forestry school can do this. SUNY College of Environmental Science and Forestry at Syracuse is my alma mater.
I imagine that soon they will do this using a DNA test.
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While certainly not 100% by any means, in many cases one can simply make an initial determination just by eyeballing it. Once you've viewed a lot of German work done in whatever walnut they were using, and compare it to genuine earlier American work in walnut (eastern walnut, not talking about transplanted or grafted west coast stuff) you can at the least get an initial gut feel. There generally is an observable difference, at least in my opinion/experience. I'd not try to use such an eyeball test via photos only, however, as it's probably an exercise in futility. Just going by these good color photos, I can kind of see it going either way! Which offers no help, I know. Anyway the more I look at this little sucker, the more I like it regardless.
I don't think the guy that carved this rifle was used to carving many arms. The stock work is very competent, and the metal work likewise is quite nice. I don't see the carved decoration as meeting the same standard of training, although I don't in any way mean that as a derogatory statement. George noted the same thing. Whether it means anything, I have no idea.
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Thanks for sharing the photos. Its a great piece and the photos of details are wonderful.
It is my understanding that wood/lumber/timber was an export from the New World to the Old. Its an obvious "back haul" for ships that came here since there really was nothing else and it would be better to haul back something to sell than something like rocks for ballast to be thrown overboard. When this would have started I do not know. So having an American wood in the stock would not be an absolute for where it was stocked. The TG being made from sheet may be an indicator as well. I would not think this necessary in Europe. Could it be a replacement done some time in the past because the original was broken?
A person could run in circles...
Dan
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While wood was exported I cannot recall an example of a European gun signed by a European maker stocked in American black walnut. Doesn’t mean it didn’t happen, but might mean the probability that a gun stocked in American black walnut was stocked in Europe, is slight.