AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: Brokennock on May 01, 2019, 07:44:42 AM
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I posted this on the M.L.F. and thought it to be a worthy question or topic here too as I've seen the same issue come up here.
I've been wondering about this for quite a while. Everytime I see folks posting shooting advice to new flintlock shooters.
It seems the 1st thing everyone starts going on about is ignoring the pan flash and all the ways to go about not letting it effect the shooter. So, in essence, the 1st thing everyone makes a big fuss about is the #1 thing we don't want the shooter to notice or think about. Before they've even had an issue with it. This doesn't make sense to me.
There are a lot of good marksmanship reasons to focus on the front sight and to follow through at the shot. A lot of good reasons to dry fire practice. Do we really need to make a fuss about the flash and put it in the shooter's head?
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What flash?
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What flash?
Exactly! I never really noticed it.
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I guess I may be different than most shooters but the only time I notice the flash in the pan is with a failure to ignite the main charge. Yes I know when it happens but it has never bothered me. Maybe not having anyone to instruct me how to shoot a flint rifle may have had something to do with it. Ever since I figured out how to load and fire my first ML (a cheap percussion that fired when it wanted to!) I have had to answer my questions by reading books. No one in my area, that I knew of, shot ML's.
Dennis
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Recently I’ve started shooting a percussion rifle quite a bit and now the flintlock seems slow. I too do not notice the flash because I have to concentrate so to get a good shot off.
There are lots of challenges to shooting a flintlock. The most perplexing is when newbies say it’s not going off but do not seem to be able to divide in their mind problems with pan ignition from failure to ignite the main charge.
Not relevant here; I’m also perplexed by folks hardening and tempering frizzens without ever testing that it did get hard.
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Best advice for a new shooter is to buy a couple pounds of powder and shoot it up.
I struggled a little bit when I started.... typical TC Hawken that left a bit to be desired now that I shoot better locks and touch holes. I was determined to become deadly with that rifle. I burnt a few pound of powder with it over a summer and even shot groundhogs (woodchucks) with it.
I taught myself to shoot a flintlock accurately. Focus on the front sight and don't move.
Like Dennis said, I don't notice the flash except on really bad ignitions...which I learned are usually preventable.
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It's easy for me to ignore the flash. I'm blind in my right eye and shoot left handed. I hardly see anything.
However, the slight delay in ignition is annoying.
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Odd, I have never noticed giving advice about flash in the pan to exist. The only advice you'll usually get here is "follow through".
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Hold thru, hold thru- Is all you need to do, if you've ever been any good with open sights.
It's about timing, not the flash. Using moderns I could relax as soon as the sear broke because the projectile would be gone before my relaxing the hold could affect the path. So it took me a little bit to get used to delaying my response to feeling the trigger break.
Most kids these days probably need more instruction on open sights than anything--if they've been playing with telescopes and laser pointers most of their shooting days.
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What flash?
The one when you dry ball.
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They don't call it a flinchlock for nothing. The problem is a lot of new, and old, shooters will shift their eyes to watch what happens at the pan instead of focusing on the target. This results in a miss. Once it becomes a habit then it must be broken.
The disservice as I see it is how the information is given to the new shooter. I've read some of the advice given out and hardly any of it will really cure the problem. Yet the advice giver seems to truly believe his way works. That's why I only work with a problem shooter face to face anymore.
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I can not, thus I refuse to shoot a flinter without glasses on. Trusting my glasses is the only way I can shoot without flinching, some of the time. I still flinch, yet I do not have
a flintlock that actually kicks - go figure. Just about over it though, with the .32- stillllllllll
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For those that don’t see the flash, try shooting with your eye open.
I have tried for years with no success on ignoring it. There’s a reason its generally referred to as a “flinchlock”.
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I shoot with my eye open and focused on the front blade and target. I see the flash from the pan and ignition in my peripheral vision but never take my eye off the target. I know when I have slow ignition and usually keep my eye on the target and shoot right through the delay. Over the years I've trained myself to do this. I keep a wooden flint in a rifle and dry fire it several times a day year round to maintain my concentration.
I had problems when I got my first flintlock. Crummy flash hole liner mostly. The rifle only fired 1/2 the time and when it did there was a long delay. After a couple of days I was ruined. I had not expected this, with a percussion I was used to match winning offhand groups at 50 yards, with this flintlock all my groups were low and left and large.
I didn't have a mentor so I had to figure things out on my own. I seriously considered selling the flintlock and just buying another caplock. But I didn't quit though it took me a long time I finally got over the hump and started shooting those little groups again.
I can't imagine shooting caplocks again. It's a flintlock or nothing.
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For those that don’t see the flash, try shooting with your eye open.
I have tried for years with no success on ignoring it. There’s a reason its generally referred to as a “flinchlock”.
My eye is on the target and front sight, but I don't "see" a flash, that's all periphery and not important. Yes, it's attention-grabbing, but not important for me to look at the lock as the gun fires.
If I was shooting with my eyes closed, as you suggest, I doubt my shooting results would reflect any accuracy at all. But no one likes to shoot against me. :P
I have helped lots of shooters through their flinches, even with non-pan equipped guns. First trick is to SHOW them their flinch as most will deny it, even after you've seen it and their scores/results reflect it. It's up to the flincher to want to work on it. Some just don't care enough to put in the time-and I'm not inferring that to you, just know that it happens. Best of luck.
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I was lucky enough when I started to have several excellent mentors steer me to having a gun with an excellent lock and vent liner. If you have a quality gun and lock you have 90% of your trouble taken care of, the last 10% is follow through and flint maintenance. I don't know how many new guys I saw back in the old days that would buy a commercial flint gun and not be able to shoot it because of slow or undependable ignition. They always went rapidly back the their cap guns never to go back to flint again. If those guys would have started out with a quality gun they would have stuck with the flint gun. Probably cheap foreign made flint guns have ruined more people on flintlocks than any other factor.
My Grandfather told me only one thing about shooting. "If you're going to flinch you might as well not shoot."
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I have been shooting percussion rifles for 25 years mostly T/C Hawken. Just started shooting flintlocks recently and can't believe how long I have been missing out.Took the advice of many on this forum to start out with a quality rifle and lock.Sure glad I did the only difference I can tell between the two is percussion is a little faster ignition. Never really notice the pan flash.The flintlock is actually more accurate than my percussions.
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I'm one of those who never notice the pan flash. The locks pan flash never bothered me from my very first one in the 1960s and still doesn't. All my concentration is on the front sight and it's difficult for me to even vaguely see the target. It may actually be, in my case, "tunnel vision". I never had a mentor and was completely self-taught. As such I learned from my many mistakes. I'm not completely convinced that the flash from a flint lock is the major problem for new shooters/owners.
I learned quickly that a flint lock was slower than a cap lock. Yet this is only noticeable when a hangfire occurs; and it takes a mere tiny fraction of a second to qualify as a hangfire. Rarely do I shoot anything other than flintlocks, despite owning three quality percussion rifles.
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I was away from ML for fifty some-odd years. Got back into it five years ago and I shoot a right-handed flint rifle from my left shoulder. The flash doesn't hinder me whatsoever because my focus is upon the front sight at ignition and through recoil as much as possible. The eye can't focus upon two different objects simultaneously and if the focus of vision is not upon the front sight, calling the shot is impossible! And whomever it was that alluded to buying a quality firearm with a great lock is absolutely correct! Cheap rifles and troublesome locks are akin to putting a washing machine motor in a Corvette....IMO! One can dry fire until Hades freezes over but the only way good marksmanship with a flinter will occur is through shooting and remembering that all the bad stuff goes on at the muzzle...not the back end! I like the accuracy my flinters give!
HOLD HARD & STAY CENTER!
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/32809290747_6959304fe1_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/RZfc5F)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/RZfc5F) by Sharps Man (https://www.flickr.com/photos/61286670@N08/), on Flickr
I figure I can whack a turk if I can get one in to 40 yards.
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What seem to get me when I started shooting a flintlock was the scrape of the flint on the frizzen. Being use to the first thing you would hear with a modern rifle would be a boom, I would start to lift my head from the stock to see where I hit. Never payed much attention to the flash of the prime. But like Mike said a quality lock and vent makes a world of difference, the rifle I stocked up has a white lightening vent and Chambers Dale Johnson lock, I think it goes off most of the time before the frizzen tips all the way over.
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I too am self taught at shooting a flintlock and never notice the pan flash.
I have a brother who has never shot a flinter and told me why he is not even interested in doing so. After watching close up slow motion video's of a flintlock going off on the internet. The spray of sparks shown in the video scared the …. out of him!
He is actually a gun guy and an accomplished life long hunter. Mostly modern stuff but does use percussion muzzle loaders for our states special season. He knows my love of flintlocks and once told me that I should wear a welders face mask when out at the range! ;D
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I built my first flintlock rifle because I got tired of being told by a good friend "but you shot a cap lock" every time I would best him. I don't see much difference in shooting a cap lock and a flintlock. All my guns are fast and dependable.
The main problem I see with new flintlock shooters, is that they haven't mastered basic shooting discipline before taking on a flintlock.
Most don't understand proper sight picture proper breathing or trigger control.
Most started their shooting careers shooting scoped modern rifles.
When they go to ML"s, they start out out with cap locks with set triggers, so they never learn to follow through on their shots.
When they go to a flintlock, specially one with a single trigger. which usually run in the 3 to 5 pound range, their lack of experience shows by way of jerking triggers, flinching dropping the muzzle etc.
Most ML shooting matches consist of offhand shooting. If you do not master the basics you will never do well, it is just amplified with a flintlock.
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The late Tom Dawson said, and he was right,"You can have the finest,fastest lock ever made
and lose the advantages it offers at the vent.His 16 bore Manton rifle had NO noticeable lag when
I shot it. With a sharp flint that lock would produce white hot fire and it sizzled in the pan.
I have NEVER been able to get that result from any lock I ever made.Some better than others but
NOT up to that Manton. The 58 caliber flintlock rifle I cobbled together 11 years ago was fast,
very fast and the lock was what I called a variant Ketland and as far as I know I am the only one that
ever made any quantity of them.I made my own vent from Byrillium,reverse tapered and used one
of Guenter Stifter's cut white agates.One of these locks made by me in the 80's recently sold for$600 :)
Bob Roller
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On the rare occasions that I’m consulted to give tutorial to an aspiring smokepole shooter I like to take the time to go over the basic accouterments and usage of same. I go over in detail the difference between BP and conventional smokeless powders, I go over range safety issues that apply to BP shooting and most importantly I drive home the point that developing a consistent loading procedure and between shots wiping, vent clearing, etc. type habit. That advice goes a long way toward avoiding a “dry ball” scenario. I also show them what to do should it all goes south and they actually have to remove the ball. I’m also a big proponent of encouraging shooters that intend to hunt with their flinter to do A LOT of offhand shooting practice, standing, kneeling, sitting so as to simulate hunting type shooting situations. Hitting a playing card from a shooting bench at 100 yards is world away from plugging a whitetail deer in the vitals at 50 yards.
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The only time I have noticed the flash is when I got to close to the wrong side of the rifle, and one episode fosters a long-lasting caution.
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I agree that the flash is in the preifereal vision, and can be learned to be ignored, or focus through it, absolutely. I have a hard time when folks say the don’t see it.
Fact, it exists and impossible to be blind of. You can train yourself to focus or ignore, yes.
Fact, the faster the flash to ignition, the easier this focus is.
Fyi, I have only a GPR flint to comment on as to personal first hand experience, although very quick, it is not instantaneous and the fraction of a second is enough to throw me off. I tried upgrading to an L&R lock with no improvement. Tried black english flints, cut flints and changed to liner to a chambers white lightning, still no improvement in ignition time. Drilled to 1/16” and polished, 3f/4f primer, no go. It still is slower than my cap. I have looked throughout the web to see if I can find a video with instant ignition, also without luck. Am I expecting too much?
Walk
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Walkingeagle I am new to flintlocks so I am only talking from my limited experience.But I also have tried various flints and different powders in the pan including goex4f swiss4f and swiss nullB.The swiss nullB is a noticeably faster ignition but still not as fast as my percussion rifles.
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I agree that the flash is in the preifereal vision, and can be learned to be ignored, or focus through it, absolutely. I have a hard time when folks say the don’t see it.
Fact, it exists and impossible to be blind of. You can train yourself to focus or ignore, yes.
Fact, the faster the flash to ignition, the easier this focus is.
Fyi, I have only a GPR flint to comment on as to personal first hand experience, although very quick, it is not instantaneous and the fraction of a second is enough to throw me off. I tried upgrading to an L&R lock with no improvement. Tried black english flints, cut flints and changed to liner to a chambers white lightning, still no improvement in ignition time. Drilled to 1/16” and polished, 3f/4f primer, no go. It still is slower than my cap. I have looked throughout the web to see if I can find a video with instant ignition, also without luck. Am I expecting too much?
Walk
You need a gun with a standard breech, a properly made and installed vent liner and a better lock. BTW, I never have noticed the flash, don't know why. When I flinch it's because I'm anticipating the shot.
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When going from percussion back to flint, ignition Can seem slow.
Good old Colonel Hawker suggested getting the slowest old musket you could find , and using that for a while, Then when you go to your "proper" flintlock, it'll seem as fast as lightning in comparison! (This is paraphrased)
I think we have to see the flash to some degree, unless we shut both eyes as we pull the trigger. (And how many photos have we seen of that!??...folks hiding under their hats so the tight shut eyes don't show? But they still do!!)
I don't think it unreasonable to "draw attention" to the flash and how best to deal with it, as it Is the first thing most folks notice.
I think best remedy is fire priming for a start, until the person gets the idea the flash is not going to bight them.
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Considering this instant gratification age, making it easier for the younger generation seems to be the drift, nowadays.
I wonder if this is a good idea. I know we ALL want to help as we've been there, but if it had been easy, I would not have persisted
to learn to make it work.
When shooting, if I do not "see" the pan flash in my peripheral vision - that means my right eye was closed when the pan went off. You cannot, not see it
is my way of thinking. Looking at it - no - looking for it, - no - that would be silly - your focus should be on the front sight and target, but that whoosh to the
right of the eye when right handed, left eye if shooting left handed, is always there. If you don't see it, you are closing your aiming eye-ball. imo
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I wrote this up several years ago to give to shooters who came to me for help. All word of mouth mind you. I have been a teacher of sorts my entire career and also taught Martial Arts for 10 years. I don't go for wive's tales or simple solutions. When I find what works best for different types of people I use that technique and refine it over time. This was posted in 2018 and then as now with a lot of reservations. But somebody out there might actually use it to become a better shooter.
This is how I teach someone to overcome the flintlock flinch. The bottom line is this, if one follows this to the letter they will overcome the flinch. If not, then one fails dismally. Not only will it cure the flinch but most find they become a better, more precise marksman. The key is to not rush it. My way is not a quick way but it produces the best results I've seen.
How to cure the flintlock flinch
Don’t rush the process. The point is to drill this into your subconscious and create muscle memory that will last, and improve over time.
Replace flint with a whittled down piece of wood. You can dryfire inside your house at this step if you wish. Cock your rifle and aim at a defined point. Try to drive the front sight into that point. Now while concentrating on the front sight pull the trigger. Is the front sight still on your mark or close? Or is it a few inches away? If it has wandered off target this is because of the flinch, and you are trying to watch the hammer and flint strike the frizzen.
Now do it again and concentrate harder on ignoring the hammer fall and more on your front sight. Keep trying to drive that front sight into the target.
After a day or two you will start to notice you’re paying more attention to that front sight and less to that distracting flintlock. What ever you do don’t rush to the next step because you’re not ready. You will just relapse. Continue to practice this step for one to two weeks. 2 weeks are much better as it takes time to teach your mind and develop muscle memory. Just keep doing this over and over until that front sight remains stuck on the target every time you pull the trigger.
When you are satisfied that you have mastered this step put the real flint back in the lock and plug the touchhole with a toothpick, you can push it on through into the barrel later. Now go outside and pick you out a new target. Prime the pan. We are now introducing a distraction to the process. Cock your rifle, aim hard at the target and pull the trigger. Don’t be surprised if you flinch. Just keep doing it over and over until you ignore the flash and that front sight remains pasted on the target. If you continue to flinch go back to step one and repeat at least one week because you didn’t do it long enough the first time.
Again I want to stress that you not rush the process. Continue a minimum of 7 days and 2 weeks is not too long.
You should not be flinching at all before moving to the next step which is a rifle loaded with a light charge. If you practiced step one and two long enough then you won’t flinch with a light charge. If you find yourself flinching just go back to step one and start over.
The keys to success are learning to concentrate on that front sight and ignoring the flash in the pan. The longer you practice both steps the greater the success at conquering the flinch. If you keep at it you will begin to notice that the front sight is really pasted on the target, and then the rifle goes off and when the smoke clears that front sight is still pasted on the target.
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Walkingeagle I am new to flintlocks so I am only talking from my limited experience.But I also have tried various flints and different powders in the pan including goex4f swiss4f and swiss nullB.The swiss nullB is a noticeably faster ignition but still not as fast as my percussion rifles.
Forget about percussion guns and concentrate on the flinter, however as fast as it gets it will most likely never be as fast as a percussion piece.
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Walkingeagle I am new to flintlocks so I am only talking from my limited experience.But I also have tried various flints and different powders in the pan including goex4f swiss4f and swiss nullB.The swiss nullB is a noticeably faster ignition but still not as fast as my percussion rifles.
Forget about percussion guns and concentrate on the flinter, however as fast as it gets it will most likely never be as fast as a percussion piece.
I shoot percussion shotguns EXACTLY the same as I do modern shotguns - same leade, same style and it busts birds, clay or feathered.
With a flintlock shooting shot, I have to shoot it differently, passing the bird by a foot before slapping the trigger, instead of instantly the gun 'touches' the bird. This 'extra' leade makes up for the slower ignition & it busts birds very well indeed. I like the swing-past method as it automatically gives the proper leade to the bird, no matter the range. Of course, you must follow through.
When shooting ball, this same flintlock gun gives me very fast ignition - certainly no slower than any other flint lock I have witnessed shooting.
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Make it a habit to call your shot before looking into the scope. If you can't call the shot you have closed your eye. I call every shot I shoot good or bad.
David Price
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Make it a habit to call your shot before looking into the scope. If you can't call the shot you have closed your eye. I call every shot I shoot good or bad.
David Price
That would be annoying.
I went fly fishing with a friend once. Once being the keyword. Every time he'd hook into a fish he'd yell out.......GOT ANOTHER ONE! After 10 fish I was ready to knock him out.
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I must say, that a tube sight placed at the breech, (like on my matchlock) makes the flash much less noticeable, even though there is no flash fence on this gun.
Not that this has anything to do with flintlocks and new shooters!
I still can't see how anyone can Not get a view of the flash at least in their peripheral vision, unless they close both eyes as the shot is fired!
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Richard, I had a vision of you mounting the latest offering from Leupold on your matchlock. Nice 3-12x, Duplex illuminated reticle....
The Marines taught me to shoot when I was 11-12, living in the Philippines. That old (probably 30 or so) Gunny Sergeant harping at me to "focus on the front sight! Focus on the front sight!". To the point that many times, even now, I do not hear the shot or feel the recoil. Concentration!
And yes, 11 year olds can shoot the Garand or 1911 pretty well. But no flinters in the armory!
Likewise with a flint lock - concentrate! You WILL be aware of the pan flash, but is just something to be ignored.
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I'm another one not bothered by the flash. And I understand those who say they don't see it; I'm the same way. In reality, I "see" it, but don't "notice" it, if that makes more sense. I focus so strongly on the front sight, that after the shot I don't remember a giant flash having occurred, or having blinked (but believe I usually do blink). But I recall my view of the target is temporarily obscured, by the flash and/or my eye blinking. I would love to see video evidence of shooters with thousands more flintlock rounds fired than me showing that they can fire without their eye blinking. I think it's just a reflex with a fireball exploding that close to my eye. It doesn't cause me to move the gun though, and that is key. Does anyone not blink?
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I'm 43 and have been shooting flintlocks since, well, I'm not sure when. Pennsylvania has a flintlock-only deer season, and I know I was shooting for a few years prior to starting to hunt that season at the age of 13.
I spent the VAST majority of those years with a flinch of varying degrees. One of the "ways to cure a flinch" that was used on me was to charge the rifle, then not let me know if the pan was primed or not.
I will 100% recommend against this tactic. It made my anxiety worse and my flinch got much, much, much worse.
It wasn't until I decided I'd had enough of not shooting a flintlock well, and was gonna come to terms with it, that I got to terms with it.
This involved, as Darkhorse mentioned, a substitute "flint". I cut the tail ends off clothspins and used them as replacements for the flint. I put a blue piece of painter's tape on a blank wall, and set about dry firing. Over. And over. And over. My only emphasis was sight picture. That's all I thought about. All I cared about. I didn't about the trigger, lock working, etc. Sight picture. Sight picture. Sight picture.
When I went to the range, that went out the window and the muzzle dropped like a rock off the Empire State Building.
And I realized what was different....firing of the gun. Recoil. I was anticipating it.
Soooo.....
Pull the gun tight...tight....TIGHTER....into my shoulder. More accurately, I pulled in and then also pushed my shoulder into the gun to take a slightly weight-forward posture. Nothing was so tight that it made me white knuckled nor shake/vibrate from tension, but things couldn't be slack.
Then I took a page from shooting compound bows. Back tension is how one releases the trigger on the release when shooting a compound. Pulling the trigger is a flinch or miss in the making. Squeezing the back muscles, pulling the elbow back, and letting the hand's rearward motion bring the "dead" trigger finger along for the ride is what activated the trigger.
So....
Back to the dry firing. Buttstock into my shoulder. Shoulder into the buttstock. Sight picture. Sight picture, sight picture.
Focus on the action of snugging the gun into the shoulder as what subsitutes for "back tension" on the bow. Let that trip the sear.
Dry fire and more dry fire.
Back to the range, now.... safety glasses on. "I can't get anything in my face because I have my glasses on." Repeated that.
Then.... "If I worry and flinch, I KNOW I will miss. It can't be worse than that, so just do what you practiced."
Form. Form. Focus on all that practice you did and replicate that form.
Boom....hit!
Again. Boom...hit!
Again. Again. Again.
Some relapses occurred, but now I knew what a clean shot felt like.
And I did a lot of shooting. Shooting up amounts of powder that would suffice for many PA hunters' lifetimes, and in a single range session.
Now.... I'm far from an expert marksman, but 50 yards offhand, a deer isn't safe by any means. Squirrels aren't, either, although their chances are a bit better than the deer, lol. At 25 yards with my 36-cal schimmel, if I don't get sloppy when the sear breaks, the squirrel dies.
Long way to say.... Practice is important, but it has to be GOOD practice. Be critical and be honest with yourself, and address what's not right. Don't sugar coat anything to yourself. You know what's wrong. Admit it, then attack it. And then you'll fix it.