AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: KILTED COWBOY on May 07, 2019, 06:53:50 PM
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Tried search feature, not much help.
Why Flat powder horns ? What is the purpose?
Is it just for priming horns?
Or also full size horns.
Thanks, KC
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I've seen flattened priming horns - or European highly decorated flat or odd shaped horns, or flat powder containers/horns made of wood.
I've never seen a large horn that would hold 1 full pound of powder, being flat.
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Many are made as priming horns, but there are many made as "day hunt" powder horns. Easier to carry, just slip into a pocket. Balls, patches and few supplies in a belt bag and off you go.
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If you have worn several different horns, you will recognize that some fit and feel better when carrying them with powder. The flat horn was just a way to make a more ergonomic better fitting horn to wear against your body - particularly when wearing it under a coat which some people did in foul weather. There were also several flat horns that didn’t have a strap attachment on them. These were presumably for pocket carry. So it was for ergonomics, and also probably style purposes. But there are numerous more surviving round horns, so it was a style that didn’t catch on with most of the masses.
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Thanks for the education
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I have several semi flat and flat horns that I use. No, they dont hold a pound of powder (sorry Daryl) but I dont need them to. They will hold way more then I need for a day of deer or tree rat hunting even with a .62 caliber gun let alone a .32 or.36 and even my .40.
I think there may well have been more flat horns then we think. Its an ease of carry thing.
JMHO
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I have a number of flat horns that are easy to slip into a pocket or a double pouch. I also have one the carries balls and caps in 2 different spaces.
Mark
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My only flat horn has a spanner on the side for spanning a wheellock. It's old, and likely German.
Have used it and it's a handy size but won't hold a weeks supply.
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How do they become flat?
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They let the air out of 'em.
Mike
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The old timers had what was called a “primesman’s horn”, used to charge the pan. It was filled with a finer grain than the main charge. The flat horns was a populars for such.
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Pete,
I had a copper powder flask that became flat, when I fell out of a tree and landed on it.
Flat horns were very popular in the Germanic lands. Very many for wheel-locks were made this way.
(Boiled and formed, Pete.)
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Ah, ok. Boiled.
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I call mine a "pocket horn". Because it ain't flat, paper is flat, it's just not round on two sides anymore. It fits in my pocket and I prime and charge from the same horn. I'm a hunter/plinker, not on an expedition.
Kinda like I call my short stick with a handle a Ball Starter or simply starter, because short-starting is a crime against your gun and your safety. Also because there is no "long" start, or "medium" start from which to differenitate--started is started. Save a word maybe.
Just some CrackerNeck syntax and psychology. ;D
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Sorta' like a "round Ball" eh wade?
Mind, "round" isn't always used where it should be. Salerooms back in England have developed the stupid habit at times, of describing a barrel as "Circular!!
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Sorta' like a "round Ball" eh wade?
Mind, "round" isn't always used where it should be. Salerooms back in England have developed the stupid habit at times, of describing a barrel as "Circular!!
Yup, hadn't considered that one as I "came up" being used to the term "ball" for modern military applications (which is not round). Our language is full of stuff like that. "Hose pipe" being a solid example from my corner, and I've studied on that one a bit. In the case "hose" is the modifier for "pipe" which otherwise (without the modifier) tends to be a rigid thing. "Hose" alone could refer to hosiery, so it's usually modified with "garden" or "water". And then you have -way- too many syllables for "lazy" Southern tongues. Some confuse efficiency with laziness. So "hose pipe" being specific and efficient, with only two syllables, yet gets used.
Now back to mashing horns.
As to the mashing, it's a bit like bending wood, takes heat. Boiling water or heated oil are what folks tend to use, then a fixture to shape the softened horn. Were there any other shapes used historically, besides natural and flattened/ovalized? This I have not studied or recall seeing.
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I bought an unfinished flat horn from a guy at Ft Frederick a few years ago. He said he used an old book press to flatten them.
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The only antique flat horns I have ever seen are all small, and only one had provisions for a strap. They also were bored pretty small in the spout, indicating they were likely designed for a smaller caliber gun. I think they were often carried in a coat pocket, and may have been used for pocket pistols as well as small caliber rifles.
Hungry Horse
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Regarding what use a flattened horn was put to, we see a lot with a spanner for spanning the lock of a wheellock but that does not tell us whether pistol or rifle.
One thing to take into account, is that Germanic arms for hunting were often fairly large calibre, but small charges were used in the fast twist barrels.
This may affect our thinking as to what the flask was designed to do. (By this I mean a small flask will hold more loads than we may think!)
(https://i.ibb.co/QXKSybr/012.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1bmyFv8)
(https://i.ibb.co/st03htd/013.jpg) (https://ibb.co/N78YX7d)
(https://i.ibb.co/nfbKv57/014.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1KL45wr)
Another thing to take into account, is that most European hunting was a "day job", so no need to pack for a Long Hunt, or carry carry more powder than could possibly be required in a day.
My little horn probably holds for 15 to 20 shots, more than enough for a day's hunt!
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Rickard - not if you are shooting gophers.
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Sorry not a great photo, but this is a flat horn I use as a priming horn. I wouldn't hesitate to fill it with 3F and use it as a "day horn".
(https://i.ibb.co/k08ZD9z/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zbRd27C)
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Here is one I picked up of flea bay some years ago. Someone has used a modern metal stamp for a date , 1662, and GB Weln. It is a genuine old horn but the stamping is fake. I will eventually use it as a pocket horn with my Jaeger rifle. It has a small crack running up to the base plug, I also made a tip plug for it. Still I think a nice little horn.
(https://i.ibb.co/1sdsZYh/P1030182.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gvPvybH)
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Grand little horn Gordon.
I wonder if it ever had the round part at the spout end?
Mine had a wooden piece fitted and carved at the tip end. (Below the plug) see pic above. I think this was a Germanic thing.
I do like yours as is though!
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Here is a "Flat" horn or "Flask" horn probably made in Europe that I restored and posted on here recently. The measure is adjustable for 60, 65, 70 and 75 grains, sure not for a small caliber?!!!
(https://i.ibb.co/5WNZ4B2/flask2.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://i.ibb.co/sRXnbsT/flask3.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://i.ibb.co/r2RJpr5/flask4.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
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Greetings. My first post. Sorry to resurrect an old thread. Here are a couple of my flat horns and their hunting pouches. The right horn I assembled from a Powderhorns and more kit as I did not have an adequate press. They are very nice to carry. The horn and pouch on left were a Christmas gift several years ago. It is the hunting set for my Jäger .62 calibre.
(https://i.postimg.cc/HnSTsVjh/FB1537-EF-019-A-4793-B977-EF88-B23-CC75-F.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/7JTFKP33)
Thank you for allowing me to join the forum.
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Wade, those "short starters" were called "Bulgers" back in the day. Thats why you have a hard time finding reference,s to short starters in the old books on the rifles equipage.