AmericanLongRifles Forums

General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: MuskratMike on May 24, 2019, 05:16:14 PM

Title: Beeswax in patch lube
Post by: MuskratMike on May 24, 2019, 05:16:14 PM
Please also read my additional post not far down this page. I left out some information on this post.
I have a friend who commercially makes bullet lube for cartridge black powder shooters. He is adamant that the approx. 1/3 of the mix is beeswax is just right for round ball patch lube. I have tried to explain to him why there should be little to no wax in your patch lube just enough to keep it from becoming too liquid. Please reply with valid reasons why I am right and please stick to the topic.
Title: Re: Beeswax in patch lube
Post by: OldMtnMan on May 24, 2019, 05:21:06 PM
Maybe you could explain why you believe that?
Title: Re: Beeswax in patch lube
Post by: thelongrifle on May 24, 2019, 05:41:54 PM
I use 1 pound of beeswax with 2 pounds of sheep tallow. Works great winter or summer.
Title: Re: Beeswax in patch lube
Post by: smylee grouch on May 24, 2019, 06:08:02 PM
Some guys like it and some don,t.  I think a persons results will depend on several factors like the individual bore,how tight of a combo, the other part of the lube combo, powder type and granulation, weather and climate conditions and probably a lot more.
Title: Re: Beeswax in patch lube
Post by: Daryl on May 24, 2019, 06:32:38 PM
Exactly!
Title: Re: Beeswax in patch lube
Post by: David R. Pennington on May 24, 2019, 06:52:30 PM
I never could get consistent results with the wax. Straight tallow or oil gave more consistent results in my experience.
Title: Re: Beeswax in patch lube
Post by: Frank on May 24, 2019, 07:00:22 PM
Never used bees wax and never saw the need. Maybe it’s just me and common sense, but having melted wax coat the bore of your gun can’t be a good thing.
Title: Re: Beeswax in patch lube
Post by: MuskratMike on May 24, 2019, 10:15:42 PM
OK I SHOULD HAVE READ MY POST BEFORE SUBMITTING IT.
His lube also contains approx. 1/3 by weight of petroleum jelly. That with the wax I feel is a disaster in the making. Do I need to eat some crow or am I right in not wanting to use it as a patch lube?
Title: Re: Beeswax in patch lube
Post by: OldMtnMan on May 24, 2019, 10:47:29 PM
Frontier won't use beeswax in his lube either. He did a lot of testing and won't use it now.

I like mink oil from TOW. I don't think it has wax but i'm not sure.
Title: Re: Beeswax in patch lube
Post by: Bob McBride on May 25, 2019, 01:52:17 AM
I’m not a fan of wax and definitely not a fan of petroleum proucts in my BP guns. But then I’m from a holler in Tennessee and in my profile picture I’m wearing a ridiculous bear hat, so you should probably get your advise elsewhere....
Title: Re: Beeswax in patch lube
Post by: Longknife on May 25, 2019, 05:08:27 PM
Please also read my additional post not far down this page. I left out some information on this post.
I have a friend who commercially makes bullet lube for cartridge black powder shooters. He is adamant that the approx. 1/3 of the mix is beeswax is just right for round ball patch lube. I have tried to explain to him why there should be little to no wax in your patch lube just enough to keep it from becoming too liquid. Please reply with valid reasons why I am right and please stick to the topic.

Muskrat, If you look up, BPCR lube recipes you will be hard pressed to find one that doesn't use bees wax, some of them more than 50%,,,,just say'n.....Ed 
Title: Re: Beeswax in patch lube
Post by: MuskratMike on May 25, 2019, 05:45:34 PM
To long knife: I understand that BPCR shooters have a use for all the beeswax.
My point was the percentage of it and the use of petroleum jelly as a component in it and using that as a patch lube for round ball muzzleloader.
Title: Re: Beeswax in patch lube
Post by: Craig Wilcox on May 26, 2019, 05:03:40 PM
BPCR shooters have a need for the bees wax - they are lubing their cast bullets, not balls, and whatever lube they use MUST stick in the grooves of the bullets.
It DOES also mean that hot water should be used for cleaning at the end of the day, as cold just doesn't cut the mustard or the wax.
As a 15 year old in 1960, I shot an 1863 Springfield .577 cal ML rifle.  Of course, we used minie balls, which have lube/expansion rings cast into them.  Lubing them with a secret mix of beeswax, beef tallow, and some sort of vegetable oil was sure a messy business.
Shooting a ball with a lubed patch beats the heck out of messing with all that waxy business!
Title: Re: Beeswax in patch lube
Post by: Longknife on May 26, 2019, 05:34:06 PM
To Muskrat, So why don't you just try some of your friends BPCR lube and see for yourself?
Title: Re: Beeswax in patch lube
Post by: MuskratMike on May 26, 2019, 06:47:24 PM
I have. Just concerned after reading previous posts here about the problems when using lots of pertrolum jelly, and lots of wax in round ball grease. For BPCR shooters this lube is used by previous national match winners and several state match winners, so it has its place but should it be used in round balls as a patch grease?
Title: Re: Beeswax in patch lube
Post by: Hungry Horse on May 26, 2019, 09:18:51 PM
O.K. Stop with the “this is what the black powder cartridge guys use” you aren’t shooting a cartridge, or a breechloader, so the analogy has no bearing on shooting a muzzleloader. Cartridge shooters have the option of cleaning from the breech, you don’t. If you could push the crusty mess out the barrel from the breech there would be no problem, but you can’t. That crusty mess either plugs up your vent liner, or your flash channel, depending on your ignition system.
 Petroleum jelly is not a high temperature lube designed to handle extreme heat, and pressure, so these two things can lead to polymerization of the lube which sticks to the bore. The same thing is true for bees wax. Both of these components have a relatively low flash point. You want something with a high flashpoint. Bear, Mutton, and venison tallow, have these properties. They do get loose in hot weather, and can be stabilized with a small amount of bees wax. But that is the only instance I would recommend adding bees wax to patch lube.

  Hungry Horse
Title: Re: Beeswax in patch lube
Post by: MuskratMike on May 27, 2019, 02:51:28 AM
Thank you Hungry Horse. Finally got the answer I was looking for, and very well stated with facts to back it up. You are a wise man!
Title: Re: Beeswax in patch lube
Post by: Longknife on May 27, 2019, 04:00:01 PM
O.K. Stop with the “this is what the black powder cartridge guys use” you aren’t shooting a cartridge, or a breechloader, so the analogy has no bearing on shooting a muzzleloader. Cartridge shooters have the option of cleaning from the breech, you don’t.  from the breech there would be no problem, but you can’t. That crusty mess either plugs up your vent liner, or your flash channel, depending on your ignition system.
 Petroleum jelly is not a high temperature lube designed to handle extreme heat, and pressure, so these two things can lead to polymerization of the lube which sticks to the bore. The same thing is true for bees wax. Both of these components have a relatively low flash point. You want something with a high flashpoint. Bear, Mutton, and venison tallow, have these properties. They do get loose in hot weather, and can be stabilized with a small amount of bees wax. But that is the only instance I would recommend adding bees wax to patch lube.
 
  Hungry Horse

HH, All the properties you mention suggest that bees wax and petroleum jelly should NOT be used in any black powder weapon,,,BUT,,,it DOES work, and BEAUTIFULLY!!!!!!!!! P.S ,,,go to a  BPCR shoot, you will NOT see anyone "push the crusty mess out the barrel"!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Beeswax in patch lube
Post by: Hungry Horse on May 27, 2019, 07:24:53 PM
 Glad its working for you Ed. But, where I live it doesn’t. Summer shoots here can be in temperatures well in excess of a hundred degrees, with almost no humidity, in that scenario it doesn’t work. It is also a fire hazard, for the reasons previously mentioned.
  Petroleum jelly, and bees wax, are cheap, and easy, to get the components to make, so do you really think we would be rendering tallow, if petroleum jelly did the same thing?
 Oh, and thanks for mentioning the BPCR guys again.

  Hungry Horse
Title: Re: Beeswax in patch lube
Post by: snapper on May 27, 2019, 08:52:26 PM
I have shot thousands of bullets out of ML loaders with bees wax and cresco equal parts.  And a little olive oil.   In all sorts of temperatures and humidity.  There is no more crusty $#@* then any other time.   I have never used it as a patch lube nor do I intend to.  No need.  I don’t use it for patch lube because moose milk is easier and works great for me.   I also don’t Clean with hot water. Only cold. 

I have placed in the top 3 a lot with my home made lube including 3 National records out of a ML



Fleener
Title: Re: Beeswax in patch lube
Post by: Hungry Horse on May 27, 2019, 10:55:46 PM
How did this get to be about bullet lube? The original thread was about patch lube.

Hungry Horse
Title: Re: Beeswax in patch lube
Post by: OldMtnMan on May 28, 2019, 12:34:56 AM
Shameless plug for a friend but I wouldn't if the product was bad. This lube won't run in the summer and won't freeze in the winter. Leave a coating in the bore or outside of barrel and it will never rust. It has no beeswax.

As a patch lube, it tested more accurate than mink oil.

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f50/18/40/56/85/100_3311.jpg)
Title: Re: Beeswax in patch lube
Post by: snapper on May 28, 2019, 04:20:05 AM
HH

Most likely because you made a comment about crusty crud out of a ML shooting bees wax.  It simply is not true in my experience.

You wrote:
O.K. Stop with the “this is what the black powder cartridge guys use” you aren’t shooting a cartridge, or a breechloader, so the analogy has no bearing on shooting a muzzleloader. Cartridge shooters have the option of cleaning from the breech, you don’t. If you could push the crusty mess out the barrel from the breech there would be no problem, but you can’t. That crusty mess either plugs up your vent liner, or your flash channel, depending on your ignition system

Fleener
Title: Re: Beeswax in patch lube
Post by: Mad Monk on May 28, 2019, 04:20:43 AM
I'm going to chuck some info in here after reading all of the postings.

The primary function of a bullet or patch lube is to coat the bore with a "release agent" before the gun is fired.  If the products of powder combustion condense or settle on bare bore walls it will adhere to the metal with varying degrees of tenacity.  The lube film does not act as a true lubricant relative to any projectile movement in the bore.  But how slippery it is (lubricity) will alter how easy it is to move the projectile in the bore. It should have the same degree of lubricity (slickness) from one shot to the next.  Otherwise you see muzzle velocity variations that effect accuracy.  Cloth patches are picky as to how much lube you have in them in a string of shoots.  Dripping wet versus nearly dry.  Velocity variations result.

Comparing bullet lubes for guns shooting elongated projectiles versus patched balls.
A little history is in order.  Up until the introduction of brass cartridges you see the standard military lube for elongated projectiles as a mixture of beeswax and tallow.  Summer lube was two parts beeswax to one part tallow.  When issued for Winter campaigns it was two parts beeswax to one part tallow.  Then along came brass cartridges.  The beeswax and tallow mixture was then out of the question.  Tallow is a fatty acid.  When loaded cartridges would be stored for any length of time the fatty acid tallow would leach copper out of the brass where the bullet was seated in the case mouth.  Case mouths would crack as a result.  Loss of copper made the brass brittle.  Then we see the use of beeswax with japan or bayberry wax.  A name problem here.  Those were not waxes.  They are plant fats found as seed coatings.  Very low acid value so no damage of brass case mouths.  No these two plant fats are soluble in melted beeswax but not cooled solid beeswax.  These bullet lubes were made by melting the beeswax.  Then adding the japan wax or bayberry wax while stirring.  When the beeswax cooled the japan or bayberry wax would form very tiny beads scattered uniformly throughout the beeswax.  Lube grooves on the bullets filled with this lube.  When the cartridge would be fired the bullet would want to shorten and expand tighter into the bore.  This put pressure on the beeswax lube in the lube grooves.  This pressure would force the tiny beads of the bayberry or japan wax to the surface of the beeswax.  Where it then put a microscopic thin coating on the bore walls.  In this lube the beeswax base of the lube was simply the carrier and applicator of the japan wax or bayberry wax in the lube.  Then when the revolving bullet left the muzzle the beeswax would be thrown out of the lube grooves.   

Several posts mentioned petroleum jelly or petroleum waxes.  The petroleum waxes will not varnish or asphalt a bore.  They cannot polymerize from the presence of sulfur in the bore as petroleum greases will do.  With Vaseline the wax in that is seen as paraffin wax.  Other "waxy" crude oil stocks yield microcrystaline waxes with widely varying melt points.

Over the years there have been a number of ML patch and bullet lubes based on petrolatum wax.  They changed odors and colors.  That became a joke at Dixons.  How many ways can you hide Chap Stick!

Bill K.
Title: Re: Beeswax in patch lube
Post by: yulzari on May 28, 2019, 04:57:58 PM
Here is the Indian Army take on bees wax for cloth patches for the Brunswick Rifle:

In 1847 orders issued and approved by the Commander in Chief and Governor General.......the balls to be put up, five in a string in small cloth bags with a greased patch of fine cloth, a portion carried in a ball bag attached to the girdle on the right side, the remainder in pouch. Patches to be made of calico or long cloth and issued ready greased from magazines a portion of the composition will also be issued with the patches for the purpose of renewal when required, instructions for its preparation forwarded to magazine officers by the Military Board.(The following instructions for the preparation of the grease and its application to the cartridge cloth as follows: To 3 pints of country [Indian made] linseed oil add a quarter of a pound of beeswax, which mix by melting the wax in a ladle pouring the oil in and allowing it to remain on the fire until the composition is thoroughly melted. The cloth is then saturated and held by one corner until the mixture ceases to run, after which it is to be laid out as smoothly as possible on a clean spot to cool. The above quantity of composition will answer for 3 yards of of long cloth, from which 1,200 patches can be made'
These instructions were approved by the Governor General Lord Hardinge, in a letter from the Military Secretary to the Adjutant General dated 6th April 1847.
Title: Re: Beeswax in patch lube
Post by: OldMtnMan on May 28, 2019, 06:51:06 PM
That doesn't mean there aren't better choices in 2019.
Title: Re: Beeswax in patch lube
Post by: Daryl on May 28, 2019, 09:15:44 PM
That doesn't mean there aren't better choices in 2019.

exactly - as good or quite likely/possibly better.
Title: Re: Beeswax in patch lube
Post by: Mad Monk on May 28, 2019, 10:50:19 PM
Here is the Indian Army take on bees wax for cloth patches for the Brunswick Rifle:

In 1847 orders issued and approved by the Commander in Chief and Governor General.......the balls to be put up, five in a string in small cloth bags with a greased patch of fine cloth, a portion carried in a ball bag attached to the girdle on the right side, the remainder in pouch. Patches to be made of calico or long cloth and issued ready greased from magazines a portion of the composition will also be issued with the patches for the purpose of renewal when required, instructions for its preparation forwarded to magazine officers by the Military Board.(The following instructions for the preparation of the grease and its application to the cartridge cloth as follows: To 3 pints of country [Indian made] linseed oil add a quarter of a pound of beeswax, which mix by melting the wax in a ladle pouring the oil in and allowing it to remain on the fire until the composition is thoroughly melted. The cloth is then saturated and held by one corner until the mixture ceases to run, after which it is to be laid out as smoothly as possible on a clean spot to cool. The above quantity of composition will answer for 3 yards of of long cloth, from which 1,200 patches can be made'
These instructions were approved by the Governor General Lord Hardinge, in a letter from the Military Secretary to the Adjutant General dated 6th April 1847.



This one brought a big grin to my face.  The then standard beeswax and tallow lube could not be used in India with native troops.  Sort of Holy Cow!!! When you add a bit of sulfur to raw linseed oil and heat it you get a coating that was known as patent leather.  When heated, the linseed oil rapidly polymerizes and turns jet black in color.  Viscosity increases rapidly while heating.  One day I was playing with linseed oil and a bit of sulfur in a pot over a fire.  Heated about 2 to 3 hours.  When cooled the mass came out of the pot looking like a garden tractor tire.
I would hate to have to clean a bore after the linseed oil and beewax lube.  Water, hot or cold, would have no effect on any film created in the bore.  Only turpentine and a lot of scrubbing would fully clean the bore.
Title: Re: Beeswax in patch lube
Post by: yulzari on May 29, 2019, 11:55:23 AM

This one brought a big grin to my face.  The then standard beeswax and tallow lube could not be used in India with native troops.  Sort of Holy Cow!!! When you add a bit of sulfur to raw linseed oil and heat it you get a coating that was known as patent leather.  When heated, the linseed oil rapidly polymerizes and turns jet black in color.  Viscosity increases rapidly while heating.  One day I was playing with linseed oil and a bit of sulfur in a pot over a fire.  Heated about 2 to 3 hours.  When cooled the mass came out of the pot looking like a garden tractor tire.
I would hate to have to clean a bore after the linseed oil and bees wax lube.  Water, hot or cold, would have no effect on any film created in the bore.  Only turpentine and a lot of scrubbing would fully clean the bore.

I cannot argue against the principle Bill but this was a standard for many years in constant use and used in the field for weeks on end where water (if you were lucky) was the only item available to 'wash out' the bore after actions. I offer no explanation; only the observation. An alternative used was coconut oil which eliminated risks of spontaneous combustion in linseed oil soaked rags. As is usual the bees wax was the thickener and the same ammunition (centrally made generally)  had to serve in the Hindu Kush in winter and the Baluchistan desert in the summer. So the mix was meant to work (in USA terms) in an Alaskan winter and an Arizona summer.

I am presuming that the linseed oil and coconut oil are soluble in molten bees wax. Coconut oil appears to be so but I have never tried linseed oil. Whilst the temperature of the firing is certainly high enough to put linseed oil in the polymerisation range I wonder if there is enough time for it to actually happen meaningfully? I make thickened linseed oil for etching inks and this takes a long time to happen to a thick golden syrup/light molasses consistency even over as much heat as will give the linseed oil a low rolling boil (do this outside with a pot cover children as it risks the oil igniting). Doing it at room temperature by frequent stirring to incorporate skinning back into the oil takes me many days. I appreciate that this is polymerisation in the presence of oxygen not sulphur.
Title: Re: Beeswax in patch lube
Post by: Mad Monk on May 29, 2019, 06:09:33 PM

This one brought a big grin to my face.  The then standard beeswax and tallow lube could not be used in India with native troops.  Sort of Holy Cow!!! When you add a bit of sulfur to raw linseed oil and heat it you get a coating that was known as patent leather.  When heated, the linseed oil rapidly polymerizes and turns jet black in color.  Viscosity increases rapidly while heating.  One day I was playing with linseed oil and a bit of sulfur in a pot over a fire.  Heated about 2 to 3 hours.  When cooled the mass came out of the pot looking like a garden tractor tire.
I would hate to have to clean a bore after the linseed oil and bees wax lube.  Water, hot or cold, would have no effect on any film created in the bore.  Only turpentine and a lot of scrubbing would fully clean the bore.

I cannot argue against the principle Bill but this was a standard for many years in constant use and used in the field for weeks on end where water (if you were lucky) was the only item available to 'wash out' the bore after actions. I offer no explanation; only the observation. An alternative used was coconut oil which eliminated risks of spontaneous combustion in linseed oil soaked rags. As is usual the bees wax was the thickener and the same ammunition (centrally made generally)  had to serve in the Hindu Kush in winter and the Baluchistan desert in the summer. So the mix was meant to work (in USA terms) in an Alaskan winter and an Arizona summer.

I am presuming that the linseed oil and coconut oil are soluble in molten bees wax. Coconut oil appears to be so but I have never tried linseed oil. Whilst the temperature of the firing is certainly high enough to put linseed oil in the polymerisation range I wonder if there is enough time for it to actually happen meaningfully? I make thickened linseed oil for etching inks and this takes a long time to happen to a thick golden syrup/light molasses consistency even over as much heat as will give the linseed oil a low rolling boil (do this outside with a pot cover children as it risks the oil igniting). Doing it at room temperature by frequent stirring to incorporate skinning back into the oil takes me many days. I appreciate that this is polymerisation in the presence of oxygen not sulphur.

I think you are right about the linseed and coconut oils being soluble in molten beeswax.
The thing about the sulfur acting on the linseed oil at high temperatures would involve the surface temperature of the metal surfaces in the bore.   When I made some linseed oil with a bit of sulfur I was shocked at how fast the reaction went.  I had cooked a lot of oil with lead as the incorporated dryer metal.   Then I looked at the chemistry of what I was doing.  That one gave me a laugh.  They credit Goodyear with the discovery of vulcanizing rubber with sulfur in tire making.  In the steam heated tire molds in the tire plant I worked in the vulcanization took place in the tire forming and curing clamshell molds.  Then I read where the chemistry of curing the rubber was the same as what was happening in my linseed oil and sulfur experiments.  With the asphalt forming process in a bp gun with a petroleum grease lube the formation of asphalt films, in the bore, is a thing of each shot adding a little more to the thickness and length of film in the bore.  This film builds up with time and number of firings.  So any patent leather coating films forming in the bore would be the same.  How many times the gun was fired and how much time between shots.  Rapid firing would build thicker films quicker because of the higher temperature of the metal.  When I had read about how the Brits had to avoid beef tallow in the bullet lubes in India I wondered what they used in place of beef tallow.  What you have posted might answer that question.  I might also add that I played with linseed oil printing ink making.  A little lead in the pot with the oil.  Heat and then ignite the vapors rising off the oil.  That was an exciting experiment.  Like getting the lid back onto the pot with a long stick through the loop on the pot lid.  But given the thing about sacred cows in India the linseed oil and beeswax lube would be the logical thing given what they had available at that time.  But bore cleaning had to be a real chore.  When I look at all of this and how I handled the liquid based lubes in my patched ball guns I realize how lucky we are today.

Bill K.
Title: Re: Beeswax in patch lube
Post by: yulzari on May 29, 2019, 07:49:58 PM
Just thinking out loud Bill. Could the bees wax have some role to play in preventing meaningful polymerisation of the linseed oil under the circumstances? I have no idea of any mechanism that would do this. Wax coating the barrel interior  preventing the build up by stopping subsequent shots sticking to it?

The balls were sewn into a linseed oil and bees wax soaked bag (i.e. the cloth was treated before being applied to the ball) and this might reman in store for some years before issue so the linseed oil would have plenty of time to polymerise from the oxygen in the air yet it obviously did not convert the calico into oilskin cloth which is made by putting linseed oil on cloth and letting it polymerise and set on the cloth. Oilskin would be about as bad an organic patch as one could imagine. In the UK their bees wax and tallow was painted onto the complete patched ball after it was made up.
Title: Re: Beeswax in patch lube
Post by: Frank on May 29, 2019, 08:54:12 PM
Here is the Indian Army take on bees wax for cloth patches for the Brunswick Rifle:

In 1847 orders issued and approved by the Commander in Chief and Governor General.......the balls to be put up, five in a string in small cloth bags with a greased patch of fine cloth, a portion carried in a ball bag attached to the girdle on the right side, the remainder in pouch. Patches to be made of calico or long cloth and issued ready greased from magazines a portion of the composition will also be issued with the patches for the purpose of renewal when required, instructions for its preparation forwarded to magazine officers by the Military Board.(The following instructions for the preparation of the grease and its application to the cartridge cloth as follows: To 3 pints of country [Indian made] linseed oil add a quarter of a pound of beeswax, which mix by melting the wax in a ladle pouring the oil in and allowing it to remain on the fire until the composition is thoroughly melted. The cloth is then saturated and held by one corner until the mixture ceases to run, after which it is to be laid out as smoothly as possible on a clean spot to cool. The above quantity of composition will answer for 3 yards of of long cloth, from which 1,200 patches can be made'
These instructions were approved by the Governor General Lord Hardinge, in a letter from the Military Secretary to the Adjutant General dated 6th April 1847.


Just because some military outfit recommends something does not make it the best way to do things. For example I give you the US Military in Vietnam and their recommendation on lubing the M-16 rifle. The recommendation was minimal lube which was totally wrong. It has been proven that it is best to run the M-16/M-4 wet.
Title: Re: Beeswax in patch lube
Post by: Mad Monk on May 29, 2019, 09:40:10 PM
Just thinking out loud Bill. Could the bees wax have some role to play in preventing meaningful polymerisation of the linseed oil under the circumstances? I have no idea of any mechanism that would do this. Wax coating the barrel interior  preventing the build up by stopping subsequent shots sticking to it?

The balls were sewn into a linseed oil and bees wax soaked bag (i.e. the cloth was treated before being applied to the ball) and this might reman in store for some years before issue so the linseed oil would have plenty of time to polymerise from the oxygen in the air yet it obviously did not convert the calico into oilskin cloth which is made by putting linseed oil on cloth and letting it polymerise and set on the cloth. Oilskin would be about as bad an organic patch as one could imagine. In the UK their bees wax and tallow was painted onto the complete patched ball after it was made up.

If simply exposure to air results in the "drying" polymerization of the linseed oil it has little effect on raw linseed oil.  When it comes to simple air drying there are a lot of things that will keep the oil from polymerizing (drying).  I never worked with it but beeswax may prevent any air induced polymerization.  When I got deep into the cooking of the raw linseed oil with a dryer metal I found little prevented polymerization when "boiling" the oil.  But certain additives will keep a boiled oil from polymerizing properly.  You get a film that either does not dry at all or leaves the film soft and tacky.  With linseed oil you play with the simple polymerization where oxygen molecules simply join oil molecules into long strings, or linear polymerization.  Then depending on the dryer metal used and any special additives you can promote varying degrees of cross linkages from one linear chain to another.  When I was a process tech at the Firestone plant we worked with the cross linkage thing in certain rubber products and the various types of PVC resins being made.  Little difference between linseed oil basics and those two items.  For health reasons I have had to set the BP guns aside.  But I am sitting here thinking that duplicating that lube could be a very interesting experiment.

Bill K.
Title: Re: Beeswax in patch lube
Post by: Mad Monk on May 29, 2019, 10:18:03 PM
yulzar,

Did some digging on GOOGLE on the beeswax and linseed oil mixture.  Turns out it has also been used as a furniture wax for a long time.  Even today custom woodworkers use it for a furniture polish.

Bill K.
Title: Re: Beeswax in patch lube
Post by: yulzari on May 30, 2019, 01:10:44 PM
Did some digging on GOOGLE on the beeswax and linseed oil mixture.  Turns out it has also been used as a furniture wax for a long time.  Even today custom woodworkers use it for a furniture polish.
Maintaining the OT digression: there is also the mix of boiled linseed oil and cork dust which forms linoleum. Also the combination of boiled linseed oil and linen which was popular before plastics as the mouldable material linenoid; especially known for phonograph horns.

I suspect the HEIC 'country' linseed oil was raw linseed oil. I used raw linseed oil for my air polymerised stand oil but it took weeks with twice daily stirring.
Title: Re: Beeswax in patch lube
Post by: bob in the woods on May 30, 2019, 03:04:38 PM
I have some Tried and True Linseed oil /beeswax finish and used it on some cabinets. Works great. I'm not sure I'd want it in my barrel !
Title: Re: Beeswax in patch lube
Post by: OldMtnMan on May 30, 2019, 03:39:52 PM
Linseed oil gives a nice finish on gun stocks. No beeswax needed.
Title: Re: Beeswax in patch lube
Post by: MuskratMike on May 30, 2019, 04:16:57 PM
Can we get back on topic? Looking for opinions on PATCH LUBE with high quantities of beeswax and petroleum jelly!
Title: Re: Beeswax in patch lube
Post by: OldMtnMan on May 30, 2019, 05:09:39 PM
My opinion is i'd never use it.

btw...You said he uses 1/3 beeswax and 1/3 petroleum jelly. What's the other 1/3?
Title: Re: Beeswax in patch lube
Post by: Frank on May 30, 2019, 05:29:46 PM
I would never use it. Been shooting since the mid 1970s and tried them all. Spit patch on the range and Track of the Wolf mink oil for everything else.
Title: Re: Beeswax in patch lube
Post by: Daryl on May 30, 2019, 08:26:59 PM
Can we get back on topic? Looking for opinions on PATCH LUBE with high quantities of beeswax and petroleum jelly!

High quantities of BW makes for a very hard lube, not conductive to good shooting in a muzzleloading rifle with patched round balls.
I think that is pretty much a given, unless your barrel is VERY hot and the lube very soft from sitting in 120degree heat. Than might
soften high quantity BW lubes.

My best bullet lube for black powder loads, ML and Ctg. was 60% very high quality BW, 40% Vaseline. Fired 10 shots with this lube
on 200gr. Lee's R.E.A.L. bullets in my .45 Flinter, with 80gr. 2F, then loaded and shot a patched round ball using WWWF lube, NP loading
the .022" denim patch and .45" ball.
Title: Re: Beeswax in patch lube
Post by: MuskratMike on May 30, 2019, 09:16:30 PM
To: OldMtnMan, the other third is olive oil.
Title: Re: Beeswax in patch lube
Post by: Mike from OK on June 01, 2019, 02:46:01 AM
OK, I've seen MadMonk mention it before... And now Daryl too...

I just wanna be clear here... Am I understanding that petrolatum can be used as a patch lube without ending up with horrendous asphalt fouling?

Otherwise I am pretty much in the same camp as Frank... Spit and Track's Mink grease.

Mike
Title: Re: Beeswax in patch lube
Post by: bob in the woods on June 01, 2019, 03:18:07 PM
I don't use beeswax in a patchlube , however when hunting with my rifle, and when shooting round balls in my smoothbores, I use paper cartridges. The ball end of the cartridge is dipped in a beeswax /bear oil mix if I'm using my cartridge box. The mix is adjusted according to the season so that it remains soft. I find it helps with loading , especially in the smoothbores.  If just carrying a few cartridges in my pocket, I skip the lube.
Title: Re: Beeswax in patch lube
Post by: Mike from OK on June 02, 2019, 08:45:24 AM
Daryl, I said petroLATUM, AKA Vaseline, petroleum jelly, etc...

Mike
Title: Re: Beeswax in patch lube
Post by: Daryl on June 03, 2019, 04:38:17 AM
Sry Mike - my bad. :(   On the other hand, I will NEVER use Beeswax in patch lube. I can see no worthwhile reason why I would or should do that.
As to the Vaseline, I do not see a reason for it either. It does soften Beeswax nicely for bullet lubes, though. I suspect it is the Vaseline that MAKES
 the bullet lube work with the BP fouling. The Beeswax is simply to harden the Vaseline/wax so it stays in the grooves of the bullet. I have used that
same 60:40 BW/Vas for bullets to 2,200fps with excellent accuracy and no leading. (the bullets were made hard enough to work at that speed and
pressure by heat treating)
Title: Re: Beeswax in patch lube
Post by: Mike from OK on June 04, 2019, 01:11:43 AM
No worries Daryl... It is entirely possible you misunderstood what it was that I was misunderstanding.  ;D

Mike
Title: Re: Beeswax in patch lube
Post by: Lobo on June 17, 2019, 11:48:41 PM
100% Bear Oil
Title: Re: Beeswax in patch lube
Post by: Scota4570 on June 18, 2019, 01:03:36 AM
yulzar,

Did some digging on GOOGLE on the beeswax and linseed oil mixture.  Turns out it has also been used as a furniture wax for a long time.  Even today custom woodworkers use it for a furniture polish.

Bill K.

BLO + Bee's wax + turpentine = Slackum.  It makes old gunstocks pretty. 
Title: Re: Beeswax in patch lube
Post by: Bob McBride on June 19, 2019, 01:22:26 AM
100% Bear Oil

Me too. Bear oil. Fits in better with the hog smell around here than anise, or whatever they put in bore butter to make it smell like beta male hand lotion.
Title: Re: Beeswax in patch lube
Post by: Mad Monk on June 19, 2019, 05:47:36 AM
100% Bear Oil

Me too. Bear oil. Fits in better with the hog smell around here than anise, or whatever they put in bore butter to make it smell like beta male hand lotion.

That is oil of Wintergreen or methyl salicylate.  Goes way back into their first Wonder Lube around 1984 when they quit reselling repackaged Young Country 103 which was repackaged Chap Stick.  I am fairly certain the 1984 version of Wonder Lube was a chest rub produced by some company across the river from where Ox-Yoke was located at that time.