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General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: adkmountainken on June 03, 2019, 12:34:43 AM

Title: .40 load help please (update thanks to all great day at range!)
Post by: adkmountainken on June 03, 2019, 12:34:43 AM
finally able to get to the rangle today with a .40 cal i bought from a member here. gun was made some time ago with parts from Golden Age Arms in the 70's i believe and has a Douglas barrel and single stage trigger.  started out with 45 frains fff Goex and  a .395 balls that i cast myself with .018 pillow ticking which i figured out right away was to tight as it went down pretty hard and i am a hunter not a competition shooter. switched to a .010 patch with Mink Oil and went down much smoother.  shooting at 25 yards tended to hit a bit to the right but now bad 5 shot group about 3 inches. next loaded a .380 hand cast rb with 45 grains Goex and a .018pillow ticking patch.  tighted up group a bit but not much under 3 inch 5 shot group at 25 yards. there is no doubt shooting this gun it is capable of MUCH more like a ragged hole at 25 yards. shot around 50 rounds with instant ignition and only cleaned twice. interested in hearing some pet .40 cal loads please and any other helpful info you can give me!
Title: Re: .40 load help please
Post by: Standing Bear on June 03, 2019, 12:46:40 AM
Sounds like your lead may be too hard. I use .395 w .018” patch, 50 fr Goex FFg.  Hunting I use Track’s mink oil.  Range I use same patch wet with windshield washer fluid.   
Title: Re: .40 load help please
Post by: adkmountainken on June 03, 2019, 07:28:20 AM
well thats something i will look in to thought the lead looked pretty clean when i was casting but will double check!
Title: Re: .40 load help please
Post by: smylee grouch on June 03, 2019, 07:43:25 AM
Check the crown of the muzzle, make sure it is smooth so you can start those tighter loads.
Title: Re: .40 load help please
Post by: Frank on June 03, 2019, 07:50:36 AM
390 ball , .015 patch and 40 grains of 3F.
Title: Re: .40 load help please
Post by: Hungry Horse on June 03, 2019, 08:20:54 AM
What twist rate? 1 in 48” or 1 in 66”. It makes a heck of a lot of difference.

  Hungry Horse
Title: Re: .40 load help please
Post by: adkmountainken on June 03, 2019, 10:15:32 AM
i believe it is a slow twist 1:66 for round ball as states in an old catalog.
Title: Re: .40 load help please
Post by: alacran on June 03, 2019, 02:59:31 PM
If it is a 1 in 66 twist in a .40, you may not using enough powder.
Title: Re: .40 load help please
Post by: bob in the woods on June 03, 2019, 03:12:33 PM
I'd check muzzle crown, but you might want to take a look at the sights re your sight picture.I find those common rounded silver front sights impossible to use without filing a flat on them. Sights alone can be the limiting factor re accuracy
At 25 yards, my smoothbore shoots a tighter 5 shot group than what you experienced.
Title: Re: .40 load help please
Post by: Hungry Horse on June 03, 2019, 04:54:06 PM
The 1in48’ rate of twist in a .40 cal. Barrel is a round ball twist. The slower 1 in 66” twist in a .40 cal. Barrel is a slow twist for the .40 cal. And will require a larger charge to stabilize it.
 The 1 in 48” twist rate was considered for many years the idea caliber to twist ratio, and held many records in various target matches. The 1in 66” twist in .40 cal. Came about because .40 cal. Is the smallest caliber legal to hunt deer with in many states, and the 1 in 48” twist lost accuracy when the powder charge got much over fifty grains.


  Hungry Horse
Title: Re: .40 load help please
Post by: Daryl on June 03, 2019, 06:38:17 PM
Crowns of my .32 and .40 bls.  These allow easy loading with bore sized balls, ie: /.320" and .400" with .020" to .0235" patches.
"Lead looks clean when casting" has nothing to do with it's hardness, ADK. Pure lead and 16:1 lead to tin (very hard) look the same in the pot and after casting.
One you can load with a tight combination which is necessary for the best accuracy, and the tin lead mix would be very difficult to impossible to load with a thick patch.
Bobinthewoods was not blowing hot air when he said his smoothbores shoot better than that at 25 yards.

(https://i.ibb.co/s33L7Xp/PB141918-zpsbd7b72c5.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Bss8kYH)

(https://i.ibb.co/VqMwP7x/P6101154.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Jsr3Mfq)

Here's a 28yard, 5-shot group with my .20 bore, smoothbore with no rear sight. Even with the "flier", it's under 2" for 5 shots.

You've work to do - the guys here will help.

(https://i.ibb.co/ZWtP6jr/P3062077.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Pw3nZLy)
Title: Re: .40 load help please
Post by: adkmountainken on June 04, 2019, 02:54:35 AM
i agree i have work to do with THIS rifle, not my first rodeo burning powder.  also agree that the sights on this rifle leave a LOT to be desired might look in to fresh sights but elevation is right on and windage is not bad just wish sights were better.  going to order some .595 Hornady rb's so i can get back to the range and will also look for some good plumbers lead.  please keep all the info and help coming i'll take a few pic's of the rifle shortly.
Title: Re: .40 load help please
Post by: Leatherbark on June 04, 2019, 04:35:29 AM
Ken that rifle was a tackdriver when I used .395 Hornady balls and the Jo-Ann's No. 40 cotton drill cloth and 45 grains of 3f Goex.  The .395 Hornady balls shot much better than the .395 Lee's but that might have been my casting technique.  I wish I still had an old video my buddy took of me dropping squirrels out of a tall hickory with that little 40.

Bob
Title: Re: .40 load help please
Post by: adkmountainken on June 04, 2019, 05:05:16 AM
Bob do you recall if that Douglass barrel is indeed a 1:60 twist? i love the rifle i'm thinking the problem is the lead i was using to cast.  how easy did the .395's load for you and what lube were you using?
Title: Re: .40 load help please
Post by: Curt Lyles on June 04, 2019, 05:24:57 AM
adkmountainken,

Here's some targets I shot with two of my .40 cal. rifles.  Number 89 has a gang twist Bobby Hoyt barrel.  Load is 30 grains of 3F, .380 swaged roundball, .025 denim patch lubed with coconut oil.

(https://i.ibb.co/HGq25mw/129.jpg) (https://ibb.co/c2Qv4zf)

The next rifle is number 97.  It will shoot 30 or 40 grains of 3F, the same .380 swage ball, .025 denim patch and coconut oil lube. Colerain barrel
for swaged round balls   You might try weighing them and doing a roll test to see if they are round ,if theres an air pocket inside she wont fly straight and if its out of round well there goes accurracy out the door too. Curt


(https://i.ibb.co/Bwpgks3/131.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7bfGhyC)
Title: Re: .40 load help please
Post by: Dennis Glazener on June 04, 2019, 05:49:57 AM
What distance Curt?
Dennis


adkmountainken,

Here's some targets I shot with two of my .40 cal. rifles.  Number 89 has a gang twist Bobby Hoyt barrel.  Load is 30 grains of 3F, .380 swaged roundball, .025 denim patch lubed with coconut oil.

(https://i.ibb.co/HGq25mw/129.jpg) (https://ibb.co/c2Qv4zf)

The next rifle is number 97.  It will shoot 30 or 40 grains of 3F, the same .380 swage ball, .025 denim patch and coconut oil lube. Colerain barrel
for swaged round balls   You might try weighing them and doing a roll test to see if they are round ,if theres an air pocket inside she wont fly straight and if its out of round well there goes accurracy out the door too. Curt


(https://i.ibb.co/Bwpgks3/131.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7bfGhyC)
Title: Re: .40 load help please
Post by: Curt Lyles on June 04, 2019, 06:04:31 AM
Dennis I sight my sq rifles in at 25 yards because thats about all the farther i like too shoot them.Curt
Title: Re: .40 load help please
Post by: alacran on June 04, 2019, 02:18:25 PM
Bob do you recall if that Douglas barrel is indeed a 1:60 twist? i love the rifle i'm thinking the problem is the lead i was using to cast.  how easy did the .395's load for you and what lube were you using?
You can figure out the twist rate in your barrel yourself.  Use a cleaning jag on your ram rod with a tight fitting cleaning patch. Double the patch if need be.  Push the rod down to the breech plug. put a mark with a felt marker on the rod and a corresponding mark on the barrel. Pull out the rod slowly , mark the rod again when you are almost out of the barrel even with the mark you put on the barrel. The rest is simple math. If the rod made a half turn in 30 inches lets say , Then it would make one full turn in 60 inches.
Douglas made most of their barrels 1 turn in 66 inches, except those that were made for Golden Age Arms. I've never had a .40 Douglas barrel, but I've had a .54.  and  two .45s all were marked 1 in 66.
If your barrel is one in 66 you are going to need more powder. Establish what your twist rate is , that will guide you as far as your loads.
Title: Re: .40 load help please
Post by: Dennis Glazener on June 04, 2019, 04:48:39 PM
Dennis I sight my sq rifles in at 25 yards because thats about all the farther i like too shoot them.Curt

Figured that was the range but thought others would like to know.
Dennis
Title: Re: .40 load help please
Post by: Hungry Horse on June 04, 2019, 06:11:17 PM
Douglas barrels are marked at the muzzle with caliber, and twist rate. But, as mentioned, they did make special barrels for other companies that had different twists, and weren’t marked on the muzzle.   
 Cast bullets cast from lead alloyed with other metals will be a bit larger than one cast from pure lead, so they will be harder to load.
  Voids in cast bullet is an old wives tale as related to accuracy, perpetuated by the companies that make swedged bullets. An old boy that had been shooting muzzleloaders since his childhood, regularly took young nimrods rejected bullets, and shot rings around them with their own rejects ( me being one of those nimrods).
 The point of a GAIN twist is that you can shoot heavier charges than a fast twist. IMO, shooting a GAIN twist with the same charge as your fast twist is a waste of an expensive barrel.
 I have heard good accuracy can be had from a slow twist .40 cal. But the slow twist is more finicky about the charge, and the patching.

  Hungry Horse
Title: Re: .40 load help please
Post by: hanshi on June 04, 2019, 11:22:14 PM
The .40 flinter in my stable has a GM 1-48" "B" or maybe "C" wgt barrel - measured it but still can't be sure.  It shoots 5 shot, one hole groups at 25 yards with 30 grains of 3F, a .390" ball and a .024" canvas patch.  Practice lube is Hoppes and mink oil for the bush.  At 50 yards 40 grains of 3F shoots better than I can hold.  At 100 yards and 60 grains of 3F it will stay under 4".

(https://i.ibb.co/JCk07N0/PICT0509-1.jpg)
Title: Re: .40 load help please
Post by: Leatherbark on June 05, 2019, 03:38:14 AM
Bob do you recall if that Douglass barrel is indeed a 1:60 twist? i love the rifle i'm thinking the problem is the lead i was using to cast.  how easy did the .395's load for you and what lube were you using?


Never thought about the twist.  The barrel says on the bottom flat "made for Golden Age Arms by Douglas" or something like that.  I"m sure its a round ball barrel.  I do believe I used LeHigh lube for general range shooting and Tracks Mink oil when hunting.  Loading with the No. 40 cotton drill was not very hard with the .395 Hornady round balls.   
Bob
Title: Re: .40 load help please
Post by: Gordy on June 05, 2019, 04:18:41 AM
Golden Age Arms was a black powder shop in Delaware Ohio back in the 70's, they relocated to Ashley ,Ohio around 1980 before going out of business. I have several of the Douglas barrels that were made for them. They are stamped Douglas GAA. I still have one of there catalogs from the 70's, I can look up there barrels and send you a picture of the info listed with them if you would like.
Gordy
Title: Re: .40 load help please
Post by: Hungry Horse on June 05, 2019, 06:17:11 PM
As far as I know Douglas never made a 40 caliber 1 in 60” twist barrel, they were either 1 in 48” or 1 in 66”. Their standard barrel in.40 caliber were 1 in 66”  marked on the muzzle, and those made for Golden Age Arms were 1 in 48” unmarked for twist, but marked GAA.
 I am surprised how often I hear on this forum, experienced shooters saying they never check the twist rate of a barrel. IMO, it is the most important factor in developing an optimum load. I quite honestly don’t know where you would start if you didn’t know the rate of twist.

  Hungry Horse
Title: Re: .40 load help please
Post by: Huntschool on June 05, 2019, 06:50:59 PM
I have a .40 with an old Getz Golden Age profile barrel that I ordered with 1:66 twist.  It shoots one hole groups at 25 yards with 30 gr 3fffg GOEX.  I can jump the loads 30 gr at a time and at 100 yards with 90 gr 3fffg it will hold under 2" off a rest. I assume it would do better except for the shooter.  That 90 gr load will kill a deer DEAD.....
Title: Re: .40 load help please
Post by: hanshi on June 05, 2019, 09:31:05 PM
I've mentioned before that, IMHO, far too much importance is placed on rot.  A 1-48" twist, or even faster, should shoot well with both mild and heavy loads as long as the rifling depth is sufficient.  A 1-66" rot should shoot very well with midrange to heavy loads as long as the grooves are at least .004" to .005" deep.  Larger bores may do noticeably better than smaller bores with this setup.  My .54 has a rot of 1-66" with a groove depth of .006" and outshoots me with loads from 60 grains of 3F to 110 grains.  With a .40 I like deeper and faster.
Title: Re: .40 load help please
Post by: Darkhorse on June 06, 2019, 09:26:30 AM
Admountainken, I have a .40 caliber with a 38" Rice barrel that occasionaly shoots some pretty tight groups. I built this rifle some 15 years ago and I'm  pretty sure it's a 1-48" twist.
I shoot .395 round balls. I've found that using .018 ticking patching the rifle is pretty hard to start the ball, I attribute this to the sharp chamfer at the muzzle. The rifle shoots good with .010 and .015 patching but most of this size are not wove tight enough or tough enough to suit me. In a quest for good .015 patching I ordered some .015 ticking (without stripes) from easternmaine shooting supplies, I bought from their ebay site but they have a regular internet site as well. This was the patching I'd been looking for, good and tight.
Anytime I'm not hunting I use Original LeHigh Valley  patch lube when available, now I'm trying Mr. flintlock's patch lube. So far I like the Mr. Flintlocks lube. Thing is with these lubes they load easy, are accurate, and I can shoot all day without cleaning.
After a couple of range sessions with the new .015 patches and Mr. Flintlocks lube it seems my rifle shoots just as well with this combo as with .018 patch and other lube. The .015 is definitely easier to load.
I mostly shoot at 25 yards but I've done a little at 50 also and my old eyes are what determines the group size, not the load. My target load at 25 and 50 yards is goex 3fg, shoots the same at both distances. My turkey load is 60 grains of 3fg and is shoots good also.
Hope this helps a little.
DH
Title: Re: .40 load help please
Post by: Skirmisher on June 07, 2019, 11:01:40 PM
Golden Age Douglas barrels are 7-groove with a 1:48" twist.  Regular Douglas barrels were 8-groove with a 1:66" twist.  I wish I had a bundle of those old Golden Age barrels.
Title: Re: .40 load help please
Post by: RichG on June 09, 2019, 04:04:51 AM
Every gun is an individual. I have a 40 half stock with a Green Mtn. barrel. 1-48 twist. Have yet to find a load under 55grs of 3f that will shoot. Keep trying something will shoot. 
Title: Re: .40 load help please
Post by: MuskratMike on June 09, 2019, 06:50:00 AM
Mine is a .40 caliber SMR built by Jim Kibler. It has a Rice 46-inch swamped barrel and  Jim Chamber Late Ketland lock. Not only is it a work of art but shoots great groups.
For paper punching and trail walks I use .395 Hornady balls, .015 pillow ticking with spit lube and 40 grains of Goex FFF. For hunting or longer shooting I use 60 grains of Goex FFF with the same .015 pillow ticking, same .395 ball with a pure Neatsfoot oil and beeswax lube.
These combinations have never let me down and are a pleasure to shoot.
As every rifle is unique play around with loads, ball size, and patch thickness until you find your best and most accurate loads. This is the fun of a new rifle. Take your time developing your loads and you will be rewarded for it.
My new .54 Lowell Haarer rifle and pistol set should arrive in the next couple of weeks. Can't wait to develop my loads for it. Will post pictures when they arrive.
Title: Re: .40 load help please (update thanks to all great day at range!)
Post by: adkmountainken on June 24, 2019, 02:19:28 AM
made it back to the range today with a new box of Hornady 395 rb's, there wassome speculation that perhaps the lead i was using was not pure enough.  well hellfire if that was not true! new rb's loaded without a hitch and went down smooth using Tracks mink oil and a .018 patch.   first shot hit to the rhit as did the next 3 but i already new this from last range day.  took a set nail and small hammer and drifted rear sight slightly. was not enough moved a bit but i needed to drift a bit more, gently tapped it a few times and loaded BINGO dead center but tad high, next 2 shots right there as well. settled on 50 grains fff Goex and will work more on loads next time but am happy where it is now as i usually set sights tad high at 25 yards. MANY THANKS to all on this forum for your help!
(https://i.ibb.co/2sGKRkT/target.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dL8KX5R)
Title: Re: .40 load help please (update thanks to all great day at range!)
Post by: adkmountainken on June 24, 2019, 02:20:21 AM
the 3 above bull were the last 3 shots i took.
Title: Re: .40 load help please (update thanks to all great day at range!)
Post by: rich pierce on June 24, 2019, 03:21:55 AM
Satisfying, isn’t it!
Title: Re: .40 load help please (update thanks to all great day at range!)
Post by: Daryl on June 24, 2019, 06:33:19 PM
You might find this loads shoots 2 to 3" high at 50 yards, now. You might have to remove some from the top of the rear sight, if you want a 50 yard zero.

Or, aim accordingly and have a 75 yard zero with the sights as-is.