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General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: Dowrat on June 05, 2019, 11:50:45 PM

Title: Considering a double rifle
Post by: Dowrat on June 05, 2019, 11:50:45 PM
Lately, I've been thinking about buying, or building, a double barrel rifle. I've read that they can be particular about loads and can be hard to get regulated so both barrels shoot to the same POA. I don't want to buy someone else's problem gun. However...they are so cool that I still want one! If I could find a set of proven barrels I might even consider building one. (Please talk me out of it.  :-\) You guys have experience, so what are the pros and cons of double rifles? I'm thinking of a .50 or .54 caliber.  Thanks for any responses.
Title: Re: Considering a double rifle
Post by: mark brier on June 06, 2019, 12:43:40 AM
A double rifle is as good or as bad as the ability of the person who made it and especially in the large amount of time spent shooting and regulating. A proper made double is a working wonder and real piece of beauty to behold. What you have is two individual rifles in one piece and there is no quicker way to get a second follow up shot than a double, important in the dangerous game world. A very knowledgeable and working understanding of what a double is and what it is suppose to do, as far as building one is concerned, and still may leave bitter disappointment in the end. High end English guns you need to remember were not made by one person but many. And each an expert in their part. One of the many big hurdles is architecture and just how small can you safely make it, otherwise you will end up with a extremely Large unwieldy rifle that looks a 1/4 mile wide. It also requires a lot of tooling and specialized tools at that that only have one purpose. I am not trying to spoil your plans at all but if you don't have experience with doubles or even shooting them you are biting off ten mountains worth of work. As far as regulating and joining properly that requires an extremely large amount of time and patience.
Title: Re: Considering a double rifle
Post by: Fyrstyk on June 06, 2019, 01:04:58 AM
Another consideration may be your ultimate use of the gun.  If you plan to hunt with it you best check out the regulations in your hunt area.  Many states specify "single barrel" muzzle loaders only.
Title: Re: Considering a double rifle
Post by: JTR on June 06, 2019, 01:06:35 AM
You might consider a swivel breech rifle.
With sights on both barrels, no need to regulate.
Title: Re: Considering a double rifle
Post by: bama on June 06, 2019, 01:18:23 AM
Ed Rayl will make the barrels, they are not cheap but will be regulated when you receive them. If you are serious call him and talk to him. He will put you on the waiting list.
Title: Re: Considering a double rifle
Post by: rich pierce on June 06, 2019, 01:41:28 AM
Least expensive is to find a Kodiak rifle.  If you decide you donít like it you can get your money back.  If you like it you have one while you accumulate parts to build one.
Title: Re: Considering a double rifle
Post by: Huntschool on June 06, 2019, 02:20:03 AM
If it were me.....  I would start saving right now and peruse the English gun auctions for a Dbl made there in a caliber you want.   Bring your check book and even perhaps your black AmX card.....  But...  if in good shape the gun should shoot well.

There is nothing neater then a Damascus barreled percussion dbl rifle, perhaps a Dickson.....  Just sayin.....
Title: Re: Considering a double rifle
Post by: Dowrat on June 06, 2019, 02:49:36 AM
Thanks to all for the replies. All good suggestions. I'm mostly a hunter and yes, a double rifle is legal for both the regular deer season and the muzzle loader season in my state (Michigan).I have built a 12 gauge flintlock double barrel shotgun on a set of original Damascus barrels and yes, it was "ten mountains of work". A real learning experience for me to say the least. But, I finished it, I hunt with it , and I like it. However, I wouldn't even attempt to join two barrels together. Buying an original English double rifle would be awesome, but that is way above my pay grade! Maybe I better look for a Pedersoli.
Title: Re: Considering a double rifle
Post by: msellers on June 06, 2019, 03:18:38 AM
Last time I was on his website Doc White has a few in the works rhat could be bought as a semi kit. Might be worth a look for your purpose.
Mike
Title: Re: Considering a double rifle
Post by: Hungry Horse on June 06, 2019, 03:23:40 AM
Double rifles gets you double everything. Twice as many sight problems, twice as many lock problems, and twice as many chances of shooting yourself while loading. Not for me, I have enough issues with one barrel, and lock.

  Hungry Horse
Title: Re: Considering a double rifle
Post by: rick/pa on June 06, 2019, 03:33:41 AM
You might want to read William Brockway's book Recreating the Muzzle Loading Double Barrel Shotgun.  Many of the procedures are similar to building a rifle and it might give you an idea about what you're getting into, especially when it comes to regulating the barrels and the architecture of the gun for either percussion or flintlock.
Title: Re: Considering a double rifle
Post by: Dale Halterman on June 06, 2019, 04:22:07 AM
I have also seen a few original double rifles that had individual sights on each barrel. Eliminates the regulation issues but it seems like it would be difficult to line up the sights properly when shooting.

Dale H
Title: Re: Considering a double rifle
Post by: Dowrat on June 06, 2019, 02:21:52 PM

(https://i.ibb.co/m4tbx1j/IMG-0887.jpg) (https://ibb.co/GRknhB6)
rich pierce - Yes sir, I know you are right. Thanks.
m sellers - I'll check that out. Thanks.
H H - Yes sir, double trouble for sure. LOL
rick/pa - I about wore out my copy of Brockway's book when I built this flintlock double barrel. You are right about what "you're getting into". But...what a journey!
Title: Re: Considering a double rifle
Post by: Robby on June 06, 2019, 03:26:42 PM
My humble attempt at a double rifle. straight tapered .45 barrels. It was fun, frustrating and a learning experience ion many levels. It is regulated to fifty yards and though I found out later it is not legal to hunt with in New Yorkistan, it is still fun to shoot.
Robby

(https://i.ibb.co/HPPcCrh/IMG-0114.jpg) (https://ibb.co/R66XNCj)



(https://i.ibb.co/qyY01HP/IMG-0115.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0DyBJ0d)
Title: Re: Considering a double rifle
Post by: WadePatton on June 06, 2019, 03:57:32 PM
I have also seen a few original double rifles that had individual sights on each barrel. Eliminates the regulation issues but it seems like it would be difficult to line up the sights properly when shooting.

Dale H

Every double I've seen in the Warner Bros. cartoons--has double front sights--which I find hilarious. 

Because I'd never seen such on real gun. I think I'd laugh at a real gun too...  Good luck.  I slightly prefer the swivel breech for a two bbl system, but have gotten "over" that. 
Title: Re: Considering a double rifle
Post by: Bob Roller on June 06, 2019, 03:59:06 PM
Here in West Virginia they are or were not allowed in the ML hunting season.
I don't know if they are legal now or not. In 1987 our Supreme Court here threw
out an odius concealed carry law that was on the books since 1872.Maybe they
will help BP hunters as well.

Bob Roller
Title: Re: Considering a double rifle
Post by: Hungry Horse on June 06, 2019, 04:15:12 PM
 Not allowed in California, and several other western states either.

  hungry Horse
Title: Re: Considering a double rifle
Post by: Dale Halterman on June 06, 2019, 04:45:25 PM
Wade, sorry, no pictures for your amusement. This is what I was referring to:

Saw something at the Baltimore show yesterday that I have never seen before, and thought some of you may be interested.It was a side by side flintlock long rifle, one barrel rifled and the other smooth.The interesting thing was, the barrels were completely independent. They were not attached with a rib, they had separate breech plugs and tangs, and each barrel had its own set of sights. I asked the owner where it was made but he didn't know.A few minutes later, I mentioned this rifle to Don Stith at his table and he said Bedford County double rifles were made this way.Learn something new everyday.Dale H

***Created by
Dale H (Rodger Halterman) on 03/19/2006***
Title: Re: Considering a double rifle
Post by: Bob Roller on June 06, 2019, 04:50:53 PM
I think there might be one of these in the Huntington Museum of Art.
SxS barrels,two tangs as well.I will make it a point to look for it the
next time I go there.
Bob Roller
Title: Re: Considering a double rifle
Post by: T*O*F on June 06, 2019, 08:04:52 PM
Quote
They were not attached with a rib, they had separate breech plugs and tangs, and each barrel had its own set of sights. I asked the owner where it was made but he didn't know.A few minutes later, I mentioned this rifle to Don Stith at his table and he said Bedford County double rifles were made this way
I am building one of those, except the barrels will have hooked breeches.  I am handing off my barrels to Curtis this weekend at Friendship and let him work his "file magic" hooking the breechplugs and making a matching standing breech and tang to fit them.
Title: Re: Considering a double rifle
Post by: Daryl on June 06, 2019, 10:03:20 PM
Ever since reading Forsyth's little book, I've wanted a SxS 14 bore rifle. Friend of mine had 2 tapered round bls. made but I could not afford, at that time,
to purchase them from him. I do not think he ever built the DR with them - what a hunting rifle THAT would be.
The Kodiaks usually don't even shoot remotely together- especially with the slugs everyone seems to want to shoot in them.
They did or maybe still do make a .54 and perhaps a .50. This is likely the cheapest way of obtaining one, but how it shoots might be a $#@* shoot at best.
I lucked out with my .58 Kodiak.
100gr. 2F put the barrels together at 50 meters.  110gr. made then shoot parallel.
80 and 90gr. made them cross and shoot to different elevations.
120gr. made them cross again and reverse the elevation of impacts.
The bottom picture shows the hammer/nipple/fence relationship. Some are even worse than this.
The picture second up from the bottom shows the same 'shot' as modified by me to make the fences operational.

(https://i.ibb.co/MD801W6/58-Kodiak-Re-finish002-JPG-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7Jgmp84)

(https://i.ibb.co/bBrZ6Md/58-Kodiak-Re-finish003-JPG-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3N0qT9h)

This is a 7 shot group at 50 yards with 100gr. 2F GOEX

(https://i.ibb.co/KK6Hdkg/P4162094.jpg) (https://ibb.co/CPBFgZy)

(https://i.ibb.co/BfYQxct/Kodiak015.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dfHVqjr)

(https://i.ibb.co/pv4mp89/P1021951.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qMmZwfP)

After finding the 100gr. and 110gr. loads, I removed their EXTRA rear sight that you are supposed to sight in
for the 'bad' barrel.




Title: Re: Considering a double rifle
Post by: Eterry on June 06, 2019, 10:29:43 PM
I have also seen a few original double rifles that had individual sights on each barrel. Eliminates the regulation issues but it seems like it would be difficult to line up the sights properly when shooting.

Dale H

As far a British Nitro Double Rifles... I've been to the DSC convention every year since 2002, I've seen thousands and handled dozens of Bespoke double rifles. I don't ever recall seeing one with sights for each barrel.  The most common is a quarter rib with 1 standing and 2 folding leaves.
I understand getting them regulated takes considerable time/ effort and drives the price into the strastasphere.
Title: Re: Considering a double rifle
Post by: Shovelbuck on June 06, 2019, 10:40:16 PM
I shoot 100 grains FFF and 460 grain Great Plains Bullets from my Kodiak .50 cal. That load has them just crossing at 75 yds. After a few seasons hunting with it like that, I resighted it to where the right barrel uses the front leaf sight at 50 yds. and I set the rear leaf for the left barrel at 100 yds.  Works great, and for the internet safety police, I've checked and rechecked while sighting this gun in through the years, and never have had a bullet come off the charge from the recoil.
Title: Re: Considering a double rifle
Post by: Sharpsman on June 07, 2019, 02:25:32 AM
Double rifle aka Morphodyke!! :'( :(
Title: Re: Considering a double rifle
Post by: jerrywh on June 07, 2019, 06:09:42 PM
Some time in the past there was a photo of a setup for breaching double barrels on a lathe.  Maybe it was Rolf who posted it.  I would like to see that again.
Title: Re: Considering a double rifle
Post by: smylee grouch on June 07, 2019, 10:32:28 PM
It has probably been two years or more ago on this forum, there was a riflesmith from Kansas I think who posted his method of regulating the side by side barrels of the doubles that he made. I think he posted videos of the process if I,m not mistaken. Cant remember his name though.
Title: Re: Considering a double rifle
Post by: Rolf on June 08, 2019, 01:14:03 AM
Some time in the past there was a photo of a setup for breaching double barrels on a lathe.  Maybe it was Rolf who posted it.  I would like to see that again.


I think your thinking of Runar's post on building a double barrel shotgun.
Here is the link.
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=38810.25

Best regards
Rolf
Title: Re: Considering a double rifle
Post by: deepcreekdale on June 08, 2019, 01:54:04 AM
Years ago I built a Christian Beck double rifle for a customer. The neat thing about that rifle, it is a double rifle, but has separate sights for each barrel. Avoids the whole POA issue. Look in Hornbergers book on the Lancaster Rifle, there are pictures of it in there. The right barrel is  around .36, the left is smoothbore about .45, but no reason you couldn't duplicate the look with 2 rifled barrels.
Title: Re: Considering a double rifle
Post by: Bob Roller on June 08, 2019, 07:09:36 PM
Some time in the past there was a photo of a setup for breaching double barrels on a lathe.  Maybe it was Rolf who posted it.  I would like to see that again.

Jerrywh,
I THINK it was Mark Brier who posted that.He mentioned it to me in a phone call last week
but it didn't come up yesterday when I saw him at Friendship.His grandfather,Tom Dawson
built and regulated double rifles and was said to be doing a book about the when he passed
away in March of 1989. I sold him a Grant&Lang 500x3 and 1/4 years ago and he touched
up the regulation a bit and said it would put both barrels on a house cat's butt at 200 yards.
Bob Roller

PS
If I am not mistaken I think H&H in London had a man that could regulate a .476 Royal India
as they called it to plant both barrels on a postage stamp at 100 yards with scope sight and rest.
Title: Re: Considering a double rifle
Post by: Eterry on June 09, 2019, 07:26:49 AM
If I understand correctly; the process to regulate Nitro doubles involves a large "wedge" of material soldered on to the rib at the muzzles.  A torch, small hammer, pliers, goggles, striker, etc is all there at the sight in bench.
The rifle is test fired, and if the barrels need separating or brought closer the torch is lit, the wedge is heated and resoldered in place.  This continues until the 'smith is satisfied or gives up!!  Historically they wanted the bbls to cross at around 100 yards, IIRC.
The rifle is brought to the bench, the wedge is shaped down until not or barely noticeable, and the gun is completed.

There is a whole section for Double Rifles on accuratereloading.  If I hit the lottery I'd buy a 470 and a 500.  I already have the brass and 470 dies.
Title: Re: Considering a double rifle
Post by: Eterry on June 09, 2019, 07:28:55 AM
BTW, I have a 50 cal CVA Dbl Brl's. the tang, the locks, triggers, guard.  Its on the list of project guns.
Title: Re: Considering a double rifle
Post by: Bob Roller on June 09, 2019, 03:10:13 PM
Another thing about double rifles Tom Dawson showed me was that on a black powder
double rifle the muzzles will be usually closer together than on the wider spread nitro
rifles.He showed that to me on the 500 Grant&Lang I sold him and his 470 he used in
Africa.

Bob Roller
Title: Re: Considering a double rifle
Post by: tlallijr on June 09, 2019, 04:38:35 PM
Some time in the past there was a photo of a setup for breaching double barrels on a lathe.  Maybe it was Rolf who posted it.  I would like to see that again.

 Here is a link to what you may have seen.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EFQgWikcA0E