AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: Wingshot on June 18, 2019, 04:17:30 AM
-
My go to hunting and shooting flint gun is an older Lyman GPR in .50 cal. I’ve worked out exceptionally accurate loads for range use and hunting and have enjoyed this rifle for many years. That all said I’m curious if anyone has changed out locks or barrels and what kind of performance gains or losses were detected. I hear all the time that the GPR is THE best off the rack production gun of its type and have no reason to disagree, just curious about what other folks have done with theirs.
-
The flash channels in the breech plug is tiny, I have opened them up to get reliable ignition. The tang is oddly contoured and makes a strange hump back profile, I have altered that. The trigger and lock parts are rough castings, I have finished them properly. The result is a better looking, more reliable, smoother functioning mass produced price point rifle.
-
Going way back in time here. I switched my Lyman GPR flint over to one of Bernie Tolino's mule ear locks.
-
The flash channels in the breech plug is tiny, I have opened them up to get reliable ignition. The tang is oddly contoured and makes a strange hump back profile, I have altered that. The trigger and lock parts are rough castings, I have finished them properly. The result is a better looking, more reliable, smoother functioning mass produced price point rifle.
I’d be curious to read more about the flash channel mod. I’ve had, at times, ignition issues but found that painstakingly sizing and installing a good flint coupled with minimizing the amount of priming increased reliability. The one thing that’s always bugged me is that the flash hole liner protruded too far into the breech. I’ve thought about pulling the breech plug and dealing with that.
-
Going back in time here too, so far I'm having a hard time remembering. First though a word about the powder chamber, this chamber is much smaller than the barrel ID and sometimes when you charge your rifle the powder bridges and none actually makes it into the powder chamber. So when I would charge my GPR I held the barrel at an angle and slowly poured in the powder all the while tapping the rifle with my palm. Plus a visual check that powder actually is present in the touch hole.
OK back to the GPR, First thing I did was draw up a better touchhole then I first modified some Lyman touchholes, then I made some on an NC lathe at work.
My stock swelled and impinged upon the sear and the gun didn't work anymore. Remember at this time I was a complete rookie and it took awhile to get it figured out. So I ordered a RPL trigger. And it didn't work either. Because the trigger assembly wasn't the problem in the first place. Finally it dawned on me what the problem was and a few scrapes with a 1/4" chisel got me shooting again.
So now I've got an extra trigger and I decided to improve the older one. This is where I learned to keep spare parts handy.
I also replaced the lock with a RPL and used the old lock to experiment on, my first foray into the mysteries of the flintlock.
I did some polishing of the new lock and surprisingly it made it better.
I replaced the sights but I can't remember what kind the rifle ended up with.
The rifle turned out to be a real shooter and the guy who bought it had lusted over it at a shoot one day after I let him shoot it a few times.
So I'm a tinker'er and that old GPR is what got me started on tuning locks and triggers.
-
I mostly use a caplock. I had one GPR flint and the lock was terrible. Being a LH it wasn't easy finding a replacement lock. I sold it. Besides a half stock flint wasn't made back in the day. In my research anyway.
I always replace the trigger with a Davis. I just did that with my present LH Caplock .54.
I never have a miss/no fire by making sure the breech channel is clean and dry. When loading I always hit the barrel with the heel of my hand. First to get the powder down and then lean it over in the direction of the lock and hit it a couple of more times. I also use nothing but real black and always use RSW musket caps. Ignition is fast and reliable.
Match the wood to metal fit, refinish, and brown the metal. I use the primitive rear sight it comes with. Adjustable sight it also comes with is junk and not period correct.
That's about it. It's a good hunting gun but getting kind of heavy for my age. Although that makes recoil pleasant.
-
A Lyman G-P (used) was my first percussion rifle. (.54) 30 -odd years ago.
I too altered and opened up the patent breech, rounding out the corners, worked on triggers and lock, and for looks, chopped that ugly hump down behind the breech.
It shot V well, with both 60 grs and 120 grs. (hunting load the latter)
It was a 1 ~48" twist as well.
-
A Lyman G-P (used) was my first percussion rifle. (.54) 30 -odd years ago.
I too altered and opened up the patent breech, rounding out the corners, worked on triggers and lock, and for looks, chopped that ugly hump down behind the breech.
It shot V well, with both 60 grs and 120 grs. (hunting load the latter)
It was a 1 ~48" twist as well.
I've never heard of that twist for a GPR. I know the older ones were 1-66 and they're now 1-60. Are you positive it was 1-48? The trade gun was 1-48.
-
A close friend has been shooting a Great Plains percussion for several years, and decided he liked it so much, that he wanted one in flint. His wife got him one for Christmas, what a piece of junk. As sent it wouldn’t fire because the frizzen was made out of junk. A replacement frizzen only helped marginally. Then they recalled the gun to replace the breech plug. The owner finally bought a replacement aftermarket lock which made it semi reliable. He could have bought a plain Jane custom gun for what he has tied up in this marginal rifle.
I used to recommend the Great Plains to all novice shooters, but no more, they’re just another unreliable entry level muzzleloader now.
Hungry Horse
-
Only the flints are bad. Show me a real half stock Hawken in flint? I could never find one, so I only use a caplock now. They work fine.
-
The Lyman Great Plains Hunter model has the 1:48” twist.
-
I was writing about cap locks.
I never worked on a flint one. I looked at one closely for a guy who was having lock trouble. The lock was pretty sad, sloppy fitting parts, the frizzen did not open properly, poor sparker. If they are all like what I saw, I would avoid the flint version.
Forgot to mention the stocks are some sort of mystery hardwood.
They are a mass produced price point gun. They can function OK but need work.
-
The Lyman Great Plains Hunter model has the 1:48” twist.
1-32
-
Taylor did a fairly complete rebuild on a GPR for our good friend Brian, in Smithers, BC.
I cannot find it.
-
My stock rifle is a flint, .50 cal and I too consistently bump the barrel to make sure the powder gets where it’s supposed to. Mine is a 1-66, 70grains of 2F on the range, 90 in the woods. I only use swagged round balls, .015 patching with bore butter. It’s always been easy to load and it’ll give you a distinctive “crack” as long as it’s not over charged. 100 grain and she booms and the accuracy suffers a little. My experience anyway. I’ll probably leave it as is since it’s served me well for so long. I’m gathering tools and parts to build my first longrifle.
-
My Lyman GPR was percussion. The only thing I did to make it competitive was to change the sights. The club that I shot at allowed any sight. So, I knew the sight upgrades I would use. I purchased a Lyman peep sight for the rear with an adjustable aperture. To fit it to the tang, I made a tapered adapter. Used screws and dowel pins to position. I used a globe front sight with interchangeable inserts. My shooting improved 100%. The Lyman Great Plaines Rifle is the best production rifle I have ever owned. I gave it to my son. He has it just the way it was the last time I shot it. Jerry
You should have bought the GPR version of that sight. It comes with the tapered block to go under the sight.
-
Thanks Pete, At that time I didn’t know those sights were commercially available. Plus, I had access to some milling equipment. I did hold my own in those days, but much younger then. Thanks Pete...
-
They can be made to look more authentic but as for shooting, they are hard to beat. I had a .50 flintlock and it was just as reliable as anything I own, and I don't settle for sub par performance from a flinter. Only thing I changed on mine was to polish up the triggers. Some folks gripe about the flintlock version not being very good but that sure wasn't the case with mine! I gave mine to my son as he was wanting to get into flintlocks and I felt it was so reliable that he wouldn't get discouraged as many do that can't figure out or shoot a flinter. As for not being PC, to each his own. PC means personally correct for me!
-
They can be made to look more authentic but as for shooting, they are hard to beat. I had a .50 flintlock and it was just as reliable as anything I own, and I don't settle for sub par performance from a flinter. Only thing I changed on mine was to polish up the triggers. Some folks gripe about the flintlock version not being very good but that sure wasn't the case with mine! I gave mine to my son as he was wanting to get into flintlocks and I felt it was so reliable that he wouldn't get discouraged as many do that can't figure out or shoot a flinter. As for not being PC, to each his own. PC means personally correct for me!
You wouldn't have got mine shooting good. It was a LH version and they really screwed up making the lock. Even a white lightning vent liner wouldn't help it. It was reliable and always went bang but it was slow and nothing I could do or others either could speed it up.
You're right about the PC part but I have my own standards and those have to be met. I don't care what others think but when I look at my guns they have to satisfy me.
-
Put a L&R flintlock on a GPR kit from the get go. Love it. Outshoots (faster and more consistent) than another GPR flintlock with factory lock that I have when shot head to head. Only a statistically significant sample of one, but I am impressed with difference. Likely better options, but I am not aware of them. Downside, L&R lockplate does NOT match the factory lock mortise. Over sized in some areas, undersized in other areas. Not talking about internal cutout for springs and such, but actual lockplate shape.
-
Mountain man Pete,
Yes, it was definitely a 1 in 48" twist.
I was told a good few times over the years that it wasn't, but I know how to test for twist and it certainly was.
I did the test numerous times, and it always came out at 1 in 48".
I did have a .50 cal one time, and it was 1 in 66".
Maybe I should have kept the old .54, if it was a rare one!
-
Did it say Great Plains Rifle on the barrel? It was 32"?
-
Yes and Yes, Pete. Definitely nothing but a G-P.
I might have a photo somewhere, but it was pre=digital, so would take a bit of finding now.
-
Well, that has to be a rare one. First time i've heard of it.
-
This is a scan of the 1975 Lyman Blackpowder Handbook. You could order the GPR with a 1-60 twist for PRB's. Or a 1-48 twist for elongated projectiles. Yes Pete, a person could actually order his preference as I did.
(https://i.ibb.co/MD5ZGxr/CCI06202019-0000-1024x955.jpg)
-
It sounds like the 1-48 was an early version of the Great Plains Hunter as we know it now. They still called it a GPR back then. Later they changed it to a 1-32 twist and called it a Hunter version. I'm also surprised to see the Trade Rifle came in 1-60.
Pretty cool looking at the history of it.
-
Maybe they were experimenting in the early days, Pete.
I had a good few questioning me about it. Still a 1 in 48" no matter how I measured it, and barrel identical on the outside to any other G-P rifle, inc. the writing and great big "Black Powder Only".
Best regards,
Richard.
-
I only remembered the faster twist as 32" as well. :)
-
Darkhorse,
Looks like you have it solved up the page. I missed your post. Thanks for adding it!
-
I'm looking at the picture with the product specifications table.
The way I read it, the .50 caliber wether Great plains or trade rifle comes in 1/60 twist. In a .54 it came in 1/48. It doesn't look like you had an option.
-
That's what it looks like, alacran, but that really doesn't make sense.
-
I thought it didn't make sense to me either Daryl. But we are talking 1975 and the gun writers of the day ( I' m not going to mention names ) stipulated a .54 for hunting as opposed to the ubiquitous .50 which every one was using for target shooting. I suppose a .54 with a 1/48 twist would handle the lyman maxi ball and other conical bullets.
-
They offered the 1-48 for those who wanted to shoot bullets instead of round balls.
I agree that it looks like the GPR was only offered in 1-48 but as I said you could order either twist. How do I know? Because I ordered a LH GPR with a 1-60 twist and that' what I got. However I didn't order mine from Lyman I ordered it from "Sports South" if memory serves me. It's been a long time ago.
-
They offered the 1-48 for those who wanted to shoot bullets instead of round balls.
I agree that it looks like the GPR was only offered in 1-48 but as I said you could order either twist. How do I know? Because I ordered a LH GPR with a 1-60 twist and that' what I got. However I didn't order mine from Lyman I ordered it from "Sports South" if memory serves me. It's been a long time ago.
Was it a .54?
-
Have I ever altered one? Yes.
Was it financially wise? No, probably not. For what I now have in my flintlock GPR (bought well-used, but still bright-bored, etc), I could have bought a nice but plain rifle from some member right here on ALR - and have, several times.
Was it worth it, to ME. Yes. I figured, for what I had invested in that used, original GPR, I could afford to start doing some cobbling, and learn a few things, without risking messin' up a perfectly good rifle too much.
So, I've replaced sights (several times, and learned in the process to fit bases to dovetails); I've installed a decent vent liner; I've tuned, fitted and replaced the (horrible, coil-spring) lock with the (flat spring) RPL version; I've replaced the triggers with the Davis version; I've stripped, refined and refinished the stock several times.
I've now got far more money tied up in altering that rifle than I originally paid for it, but it still shoots better than I do, and once I'm tired of messing with it, I've got lots of family to pass it along to.
So, for MY purposes, it's been worth it.
-
Well, I kinda hate to admit this, but many years ago, a bright eyed pilgrim attached himself to my camp at one of our bigger rendezvous. Like all of us when we started out, he had an endless stream of questions. One of those questions was how do you make your gun look like its actually over wintered in the Rocky Mountains. I said shucks thats easy, just give it to me, and I’ll fix it right up for you. He did, and I took his pristine.50 caliber Great Plains rifle home with me. I stripped the stock, and the metal, of their finishes. I belt sanded the bottom of the forearm clear through to the ramrod channel, and then smoothed it up to resemble saddle wear. I rawhided the wrist with a rawhide dog chew, and stained it with a wash of Lincoln’s medium brown leather dye, rubbed down while wet with a wet rag and rubbed it good with some black masonry tint while just barely damp. The metal got a mix of Birchwood Caseys plum brown, and cold blue, rubbed back to bright, except in the corners. A painted on finish, rubbed back and accented with a little more masonry tint to simulate dirt, and the wood was done. I added some brass tacks, and treated them with salt, and hydrogen peroxide, to green them up, and she was done. I expected him to freak out when he saw it for the first time, and planned it so there would be a crowd, just in case he didn’t take it well. He loved it, and long after he had gotten a much better gun, it could always be found leaning against something in his camp.
Hungry Horse
-
They offered the 1-48 for those who wanted to shoot bullets instead of round balls.
I agree that it looks like the GPR was only offered in 1-48 but as I said you could order either twist. How do I know? Because I ordered a LH GPR with a 1-60 twist and that' what I got. However I didn't order mine from Lyman I ordered it from "Sports South" if memory serves me. It's been a long time ago.
Was it a .54?
Yes it was. A .54 has always been my choice in a big game hunting rifle.
When I bought mine I had not yet discovered ALR or TOW or Jim Chambers. I lived in a remote, rural area, still do, with little contact with the rest of the black powder crowd. I shot my GPR for many years before I built my first .54 rifle.
-
Sadly, i'm not a builder living in an apartment. So, other than buying a custom gun which I can't afford. The GPR is my pick for a hunting gun. I agree the .54 is the best choice.
-
That may be the case for GPR’s bought a few years ago, but the new ones I’ve examined are not good quality. Mostly just poorly assembled.
Hungry Horse
-
Yes, they need to reworked. I'm sending mine to a buddy. He'll match the metal to wood fit, brown all the metal, defarb, bed it, and refinish. I already smoothed the crown and replaced the trigger with a Davis.
One good thing is they still shoot good.
-
I just have to ask why would you buy a gun that isn’t particularly cheap to start with, and then spend more time, and money, on it to make it a PC marginal rifle. Why not buy a custom, or semi-custom gun in the white, that doesn’t have poor triggers, and a piece of junk lock, and fit, and finish issues?
Hungry Horse
-
I just have to ask why would you buy a gun that isn’t particularly cheap to start with, and then spend more time, and money, on it to make it a PC marginal rifle. Why not buy a custom, or semi-custom gun in the white, that doesn’t have poor triggers, and a piece of junk lock, and fit, and finish issues?
Hungry Horse
Show me a custom gun for the same price including finishing it? Make sure it's a LH. You overestimate what it will cost me to have the GPR fixed.
Just the parts for a Hawken are over $1000.
-
Good point, Pete. A Layman rifle at around or just over $500.00 with a replacement lock installed is still less than the cost of parts for a quality Hawken build.
The barrels I have seen in these guns shoot very well indeed and as a rifle, are just fine, to my less than critical eye.
My other eye doesn't like them. LOL - just kidding, they're OK. If Lyman called them 'Hawkens', I'd be less agreeable to them.
-
Yes, accuracy is the selling point for me. I think i've had about 6-7 GPR's over the years and they were all good shooters.
A Hawken it isn't but I can except a plains rifle.
-
I replaced everything but the barrel,tang and of course breech plug! Not because it wasn’t a good rifle ,I will get a green mount barrel and can’t decide wether to put it back in the Lyman or leave it in the new rifle ( it’s happy there) and make a real good shooter out of the Lyman …or just switch them back and forth! Just because I wanted too!
(https://i.ibb.co/VpgGnVP/AC59-B5-DF-E061-47-C4-99-BA-68-DD7-B6-D0958.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5xr3pTf)
The trigger and lock are both L&R the furniture The Hawken Shoppe and track of the wolf items,learned a lot building it.there are mistakes and learning to rectify them you can’t see.
-
I guess it will work even better than it looks!/Ed
-
Finished this earlier this year. Tried to reduce the hump on the tang a bit, but that's about it. Builds up nice for a production rifle, and shoots very well.
(https://i.ibb.co/FmmGSGd/20210117-154559.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LYY4L4s)
-
Taylor extensively re-built a GPR. Perhaps he will give us a picture parade?
-
The first work I did for my buddy Brian (RIP) was to re-build his Lyman GPR. So here's a few pictures of it...
(https://i.ibb.co/bLwxyw6/DSCN1617.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1Ky3py0)
(https://i.ibb.co/Y3QDDyv/DSCN1618.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9NgwwVR)
(https://i.ibb.co/ts68ypz/DSCN1619.jpg) (https://ibb.co/XsPSmxD)
(https://i.ibb.co/C8dvxxx/DSCN1625.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DWXk333)
(https://i.ibb.co/ZXW4vGx/o.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nmzd46j)
what's my monitor resolution (https://whatsmyscreenresolution.com/)
The wood is some kind of European hardwood, and hard it is! But it took a fine polish and stain and turned out very nice, compared to the factory finish. I replaced the barrel key escutcheons too as they were inadequate, thin steel set in a rubbery filler in the wood. I used pure silver and they also turned out nicely and much more serviceable. I removed the hump in the tang and wrist, put in the details of stock molding and cheek piece to replace the slack-sanded stock architecture. I stripped and browned the barrel and hardware, case hardened the nose piece, and replaced the factory lock with a RPL from L & R. The original lock will not spark...still have it if anyone needs parts from it.
The rifle shoots fine...it's accurate and reliable.
-
I helped a buddy build his first muzzle loader from a Lyman kit. Had him do some trimming and reshaping. The toe line got straightened some and the cheek piece refined. I think he did well.
(https://i.ibb.co/TKtDghv/IMG-1292a.jpg) (https://ibb.co/XytfCJ2)
(https://i.ibb.co/FXWvzkd/IMG-1289a.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8bB39nQ)
-
I bought a Lyman GPR in 50 caliber percussion back in 1995, and honestly, I can't fault the gun. Looking at some of the recently made GPRs, I believe that quality control and fit and finish has gone down in the last 26 years. I bought it because it seemed to be a better rifle than the TC "Hawken", and my opinion hasn't changed. I own three TC "Hawkens" , two flint guns and one percussion, but if I could only have one store bought muzzleloader, it would be the GPR. It is easy to denigrate these rifles as being non-historically correct but they serve the function of introducing an awful lot of folks to traditional muzzle loading.
-
I might as well tell my GPR story. I bought one in flint from Midsouth back when they had the best prices. It was a .54 flint. I fought the soft frizzen and even with the black english flints and rehardening along with enlarging the touchhole it was just too unreliable even on a dry day. So I converted my flint GPR to percussion by removing the lock and installing a 5/16th x 24 drum in the touch hole after retapping. I then ground off the pan on the lock and cut a halfmoon notch for the drum. I then installed an L&R hammer from an Ohio style lock as it had the same throw. The conversion worked out perfectly and it was a very reliable and accurate shooter for several years. I don't think it ever misfired. Much easier than a patent breech plug replacement. Plus I was able to get full thread engagement of the drum inside the chambered breech. I always used the TOW undrilled drums without the clean out hole and use the jig to place the nipple so I can really tighten the drum into the threads with locktite.
Bob