AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: T*O*F on June 27, 2019, 10:59:51 PM
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I'm surprised that no one has mentioned this yet. Curtis and myself stopped to chat with Liston Rice at Friendship. He showed us the prototype for a new Nock flint lock that he will be producing. It's a beauty. It will only be offered thru one dealer whom he has yet to pick. That dealer will have exclusive rights to sell it with the understanding that Liston will only make direct sales himself at Friendship and the CLA show. Retail will be between $250 and $300 and worth every penny. He will be doing all the assembly himself.
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Sounds exciting.
I gotta say it because it’s so tempting. Don’t Nock it till you’ve tried it.
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Interested as I have the Nock that Tip Curtis was selling a few years back--maybe yet is. It's on my deer gun.
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Do you have any pictures??
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If it is the same lock, LC Rice had the prototype at the Knoxville show in April. He said it will be a while before they have it on the market.
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TOF is telling it right, the prototype that Liston had at Friendship was one fine looking, smooth lock. Neither one of us had anything with us to take a picture, not sure he would have been agreeable that that yet anyway. He was hoping to have production locks ready for sale at the CLA show in August. If he has them at the show I will not be able to resist the urge to purchase one. 8)
Curtis
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Is there a waiting list that one may be put on for one of these locks?
If so, who does one get in touch with to be put on the list?
Thanks,
R.J.Bruce
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I wonder if these locks are made from the moulds I gave to
Les Barber and Larry Zornes at the Gun&Mould Shop??
Bob Roller
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I hope they work as well as the Original Nock locks I have had over the years.
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The moulds were made by Liston. I didn't know there was so much to making a mould. Very impressive.
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The fitting of the internal parts and most important at least
to me are the mainsprings,the taper and preloading are the
things critical.I have had possibly more experience with these
springs than most if not all on this forum.I still have ONE set
of external parts for the Nock I sent to a German shop for a
Boutete target pistol project.I saw one last Fall at Friendship
that I made in 1980 and it was still working like new.The owner
was Helmut Mohr who got most of them.
Bob Roller
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I spent quite a while talking to Mr. Rice about this lock and also the set triggers that he had at Friendship. I always enjoy my conversations with him. He explained he was still making minor tweeks, like a different cock screw, and other minor details. I asked them if the production locks were going to be of this quality. He assured me that they would since his brother would be assembling them. He also told me the price would be in the $225 range.
I have to canvas my friends back East to see who is going to the C.l.A. show. So they can pick one up for me. If he does have them available I am ceartain he will sell out whatever he brings.
Outstanding lock.
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I talked to Jason at Rice Barrels today. He said he has had several calls about the lock. So, I thought I would remind everybody that Rice Barrels has nothing to do with this project. This is strictly a Liston Rice thing. We'll just have to wait for Liston to put out more info regarding availability.
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I certainly wish Liston all possible success with this Nock lock.Lynton McKenzie
took one off a double barrel smoothbore for me to study when I started on the
project for the German shop in 1978 and it was a big help.I had obtained the
moulds for the plate,cock and frizzen from TOW and because Helmut Mohr paid
the foundry he got almost all of them from the first run.Several years ago I gave
them to Larry Zornes and Les Barber and told them to do whatever they wanted
with them.
Last month while at Friendship Liston told me he used a foundry in Arkansas
that did good work and would accept short runs so we will see and I hope
this is a good,problem free lock he comes up with.
Bob Roller
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"I'm surprised that no one has mentioned this yet. Curtis and myself stopped to chat with Liston Rice at Friendship. He showed us the prototype for a new Nock flint lock that he will be producing. It's a beauty. It will only be offered thru one dealer whom he has yet to pick. Retail will be between $250 and $300 and worth every penny."
"Do you have any pictures?? "
Does the Nock lock look like this?? If it does, I'll take 3 please.
(https://i.ibb.co/QXLZ1fy/14.jpg) (https://ibb.co/t3gSW4V)
Mike
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Hi,
I hope its not and doubt it will be one of Nock's screwless locks.
dave
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The lock had a waterproof pan, it looked similar to a nice Twigg lock or such.
Curtis
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Quote: "I hope its not and doubt it will be one of Nock's screwless locks." -- Just pullin' yer tail Smart Dog!
So this new Nock lock is going to be more along the lines of this pistol lock from Henry Nock:
(https://i.ibb.co/SN9QRgZ/nock2-lock.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4W5sPL0)
Henry Nock died in 1804 (age 63), but I've never seen a Nock lock on an American rifle. He made English fowlers, muskets, rifles, pistols, and locks for naval cannons and I doubt he had time to supply locks to the American trade, am I right? What say you? Mike
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In their day, Nock locks would have been far too expensive for the American trade.
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In their day, Nock locks would have been far too expensive for the American trade.
There is NO good reason they should be cheap today if close attention
is paid to the fine detailing done to these old ones.There are VW's and then
there are Maybach V12's.The same analogy can apply to locks as well.
Bob Roller
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Like others have said here, I would dearly love to see photos of Listons prototype Nock.
Ez
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Here's my first Nock lock, after some tweaks and few years on my deer rifle. Tip Curtis was the source. Apologies for the lighting.
(https://i.ibb.co/18mCX6j/20190724-213503.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ZWMQgm7)
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Quote: "I hope its not and doubt it will be one of Nock's screwless locks." -- Just pullin' yer tail Smart Dog!
So this new Nock lock is going to be more along the lines of this pistol lock from Henry Nock:
(https://i.ibb.co/SN9QRgZ/nock2-lock.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4W5sPL0)
Henry Nock died in 1804 (age 63), but I've never seen a Nock lock on an American rifle. He made English fowlers, muskets, rifles, pistols, and locks for naval cannons and I doubt he had time to supply locks to the American trade, am I right? What say you? Mike
Is the fence acting as a stop for the cock
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That lock has what is referred to as a French cock. And yes, the fence stops the cock's forward fall.
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That cock and using the flash fence for a brake has NO appeal to me at all.
Appearance is beautiful but has it been tested for a long string of shots.
The main reason so many of these superb relics survive in fine condition
is due to little or no use and were mostly owner prestige items.
Many years ago I saw a fine pistol at Farris's Gun Shop in Portsmouth,Ohio
and it had one of these locks that was beat up and the bridle internally was
broken from being over rode by the tumbler.I would approach reproducing this
type of lock with extreme caution for today's shooter who may fire it 500 times
or more a year.
Bob Roller
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Appearance is beautiful
Yes it is.
Ez
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This one's cock is stopped on the fence. You can see the stopping surface on the chin, and the slight mark on the fence from repeated impacts. From the look of the frizzen face, it has been fired quite a bit. It was finished in September, 1822.
(https://i.ibb.co/9grXrLj/003.jpg) (https://ibb.co/H4HvHsQ)
(https://i.ibb.co/GcQryvF/001.jpg) (https://ibb.co/t8p1gM3)
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This one's cock is stopped on the fence. You can see the stopping surface on the chin, and the slight mark on the fence from repeated impacts. From the look of the frizzen face, it has been fired quite a bit. It was finished in September, 1822.
(https://i.ibb.co/9grXrLj/003.jpg) (https://ibb.co/H4HvHsQ)
(https://i.ibb.co/GcQryvF/001.jpg) (https://ibb.co/t8p1gM3)
That looks like a "low mileage gun"to me and maybe it relies on a powerful
frizzen spring to be a partial brake to the cock.This would,as I see it require
some good case hardening because common sense says a soft,unhardened
flash fence will not last long if the mainspring is robust as it should be for a
good performing lock.
The pistol I saw years ago was pretty well beat up regarding that style of lock.
There is no reason that a stop on the cock,even if it's styled like the one pictured
can't be incorporated in a new lock made with shooters in mind.
Bob Roller
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Bob I made two locks like that several years ago and case hardened the heck out of the plate and the hammer. I doubt if they have ever been fired though. I think they are in some billionaire's vault now. He tole me he was going to take them to the CLA show but he never did. Can't trust the super rich. I guess their promises to peons don't count much. HUH?
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Bob I made two locks like that several years ago and case hardened the heck out of the plate and the hammer. I doubt if they have ever been fired though. I think they are in some billionaire's vault now. He tole me he was going to take them to the CLA show but he never did. Can't trust the super rich. I guess their promises to peons don't count much. HUH?
Jerrywh,
Sometimes not but then unkept promises cross all venues.I have only done one job
for a very wealthy man but he kept his promise. It was MORE than one job but came
in one conversation at Bill Large's years ago.The man wanted one of any and every kind
of lock I made for muzzle loaders and when I got them made,he said he'd be over at
Bill's the next day to get barrels and he was there and I got paid as did Bill.
I did another job for a Canadian that was well off but what he had me make was for
a Duesenberg car he was restoring.Sad to say,he died from multiple Myoloma before
the car was ready.He did get his parts from me and I was well paid.
Bob Roller
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Appearance is beautiful
Yes it is.
Ez
Today we went to the CLA show in Lexington and I got a good look at that
neat little lock from Liston Rice and I was impressed with it.The fit of parts and
over all quality looks really good. There was a bow in the lower leaf of
the mainspring
but that is a very thin spring but a powerful one.I would not reject that
lock because of it.It is a cast spring but so are most of the springs by other makers.
It is a lot of lock for the $225 price but In the absence of a better one I think it's
worth it.The frizzen pivots on a threadless pin and the end next to the barrel is
long and can be milled away for an inset breech.A clever idea I think.
I hope this lock is a big success and wish him well in this endeavor.
Bob Roller
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I'd love to see a few pics of it.
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A strong family resemblance: http://www.sitemason.com/page/iiIFfa
I was looking for original rifles using Henry Nock locks and came across this one. It is slightly fancier than the new Nock Lock but the family resemblence is very strong. With some minor mods, it could be even stronger if one is so inclined.
If someone has links to other originals using Henry Nock locks I'd like to see! This is a very interesting lock from right at the end of the flint era, --- I think ---
I took a bunch of pictures of mine. It will take me a bit to get them posted. I need to transfer, resize, etc.
Gerald
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A strong family resemblance: http://www.sitemason.com/page/iiIFfa
I was looking for original rifles using Henry Nock locks and came across this one. It is slightly fancier than the new Nock Lock but the family resemblence is very strong. With some minor mods, it could be even stronger if one is so inclined.
Lord have mercy, that is a beautiful rifle.
Ez
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(https://i.ibb.co/HrwSdQV/Nock-Lock-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/YtnCZG3)
(https://i.ibb.co/m9xW0nP/Nock-Lock-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6HdC8Kq)
(https://i.ibb.co/jvKSZqH/Nock-Lock-3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ns2F84R)
(https://i.ibb.co/bFFkLTb/Nock-Lock-4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/HCCjY6h)
(https://i.ibb.co/wCZ3zFc/Nock-Lock-5.jpg) (https://ibb.co/sQpkVdW)
(https://i.ibb.co/CHFWxgL/Nock-Lock-6.jpg) (https://ibb.co/QKGXsL0)
(https://i.ibb.co/ccnrBmd/Nock-Lock-7.jpg) (https://ibb.co/RpwDF5W)
(https://i.ibb.co/yhfQ91f/Nock-Lock-8.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ZHLMjPL)
Quite a nice lock. Not nearly as much required to finish this one as most others I've encountered. It's one of the few I've had my hands on which is actually pretty good right out of the bag.
Gerald
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On my hobby-horse again, chaps, that cock is totally wrong for an English style lock of that period. Just refer to the link in reply#33 to see how it should look!
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Hi Hen,
You are right although a nice cut molding around the edges will help but the "S" is a bit loose and tall. Some folks are going to have trouble with the short trigger bar on the sear. On the one I received, it extends only 1/2" beyond the depth of the lock bolster. That means, even with a 1" diameter barrel at the breech, the trigger has to be mounted right of center. That was not unusual for British guns but it also means that using a larger barrel is going to be a problem particularly if the lock panels flare out toward the butt. I wonder if the original lock copied came from a double gun or one on which the panels angle inward toward the rear. The good news is that the locks sparks as well as any original English lock I've experienced.
dave
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Note sure if you mean the stirrup by the "S"? Anyway the link I posted above is another Henry Nock lock and it also has a long stirrup. I figure you get unique features when an original is copied or near copied. Those are the features which distinguish it from other locks.
Unless I'm mistaken, this is a very late flint lock from the end of the era of flint locks. I think most rifles from that era would have had relatively narrow barrels? Anyway I checked my lock against a rifle I'm building. It looks to me that a 1" breech would not require offsetting the triggers for set triggers or single. Beyond that you might have to make some acccomodations. But personally I don't have a problem with a 1" max barrel breech in a very late flint rifle. I don't think this lock would be appropriate on an earlier rifle with a fatter barrel. But of course all of you know much more about it than I do!
If you look at the internal pics of the Nock lock in the link I posted a couple posts back, you'll see an original that also has a short sear arm.
I'm assuming most of you don't leave the sear arm of a lock full length anyway? I know I don't! Longer needs a deeper hole and weakens the stock, and probably slows the lock timing down microscopically when triggered with a set trigger.
To each his own of course! I like the lock, so far at least. You may not. There are of course lots of locks to choose from.
Gerald
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Hi,
The lock is from the late 1790s to 1810 so not at the end of the flint era when stepped breeches and "V" pans became common. If you look through the photos of the lock in the link above you can see the trigger bar on that Nock lock is a bit longer. I prefer a 1 1/16" to 1 1/8" breech on my later English rifles which makes it easier to get the breech architecture right so the triggers will have to be moved well to the right to hit the sear. It should not have been very difficult for the lock maker to lengthen the sear bar by about 3/16" allowing a lot more flexibility when using the lock.
dave
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My locks usually have a 1"trigger bar and I once made one about 2"
for a bench gun with a wide barrel.
The Nock flint lock that Lynton McKenzie loaned to me about 40 years ago
had a gooseneck cock that stopped on the lock plate at the end of the firing
cycle.The internal pattern I have used for more than 40 years was inspired
by a John Manton lock owned by a Canadian.Simple and efficient and I think
good looking as well.
Bob Roller
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Well since we're all being picky, and I say this with the caveat that these later styled locks aren't really my thing, it looks like a well made lock and I'm sure it functions well. This being said, I can't stand to look at the frizzen spring. It looks like an afterthought and like something I'd see on an old dixie lock, especially with the tiny screw head and oversized screw boss.
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I agree with Eric - the frizzen spring has to go ! It should look more like the Wilkinson frizzen spring and How are you supposed to remove the frizzen axcel? I like the over all profile of the lock plate however. One more thing - when pulling the cock fully back to full cock, does the tension increase or decrease? Dave and Bob will know what I am referring to. Hugh Toenjes
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Hi Hugh and Eric,
I bought one and received it a few days ago. The mainspring action is very good and the stirrup and tumbler architecture provide excellent mechanical advantage. The frizzen and frizzen spring action is about as perfect as you can make and balanced with the mainspring. Hugh, this lock produces as much spark right in to the pan as any original English lock I've experienced. My issue is that the trigger bar is too short and is going to limit the use of the lock even for the intended use - late flint English guns. It should make a good pistol lock and a huge improvement in shape over the L&R Bailes or Baby Manton lock. The appearance of the frizzen spring could be improved if the bend was pinched tighter as you see on most originals with the roller in the spring. The lock also appears to use the old cast mainspring from the L&R Durs Egg lock complete with the slight belly in the lower leaf when at full cock. Despite that, the springs work very well and the lock sparks better than most of the commercially made locks sold today. As far as the frizzen axel pin goes, once tension from the frizzen spring is released, the pin pops right out.
dave
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It should make a good pistol lock and a huge improvement in shape over the L&R Bailes or Baby Manton lock.
Smart Dog,
What are the dimensions?
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So it ain't perfect but it is a work in progress and the gunmakers
ought to be glad it's up and running.
Bob Roller
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Some photos of the new lock from CLA. There is a photo included of a photo of an original lock, with the new lock above it. I hope these prove useful to someone. God Bless, Marc
(https://i.ibb.co/ySxMqFK/Nock-Lock-CLA-2019-3881.jpg) (https://ibb.co/PQVbgGJ)
(https://i.ibb.co/gRz38pb/Nock-Lock-CLA-2019-3882.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jrgTY29)
(https://i.ibb.co/JytFDv6/Nock-Lock-CLA-2019-3880.jpg) (https://ibb.co/pRwrYfV)
(https://i.ibb.co/sHmvsJs/Nock-Lock-CLA-2019-3877.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6BnRDJD)
(https://i.ibb.co/mHDnTNX/Nock-Lock-CLA-2019-3876.jpg) (https://ibb.co/khHLBm9)
(https://i.ibb.co/MPq2Y7M/Nock-Lock-CLA-2019-3879.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7r7YwK2)
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I am not a lock expert but this looks an awful lot like a Chambers’s late Ketland except for the pan. Is this lock appreciably that much better to justify the cost? Maybe for the purists who are looking to precisely reproduce an original gun, this is needed?
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It looks a decent lock and very nice to hear it sparks well.
If I had my druthers, I'd like to see the half bent position closer to where the full cock position is, and yes, the cock is too open in the 'S' for an English lock.
I don't mean to pull it apart, but these points and the casual mainspring are a bother to me.
The dropped mainspring is good on these smaller locks, as the maispring has more room to work and clears the barrel better.
(See attachment.)
Bob Roller,
My old locks made about 1815 do not have a beat up fence here the cock contacts. Marked, yes, but not beat up. The case hardening must have been done right, as my locks have had the frizzens re-steeled twice at least.
Very best,
Richard.
(https://i.ibb.co/n6s3n0Q/DSCN2510.jpg) (https://ibb.co/GnvstJC)
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Some photos of the new lock from CLA. There is a photo included of a photo of an original lock, with the new lock above it. I hope these prove useful to someone. God Bless, Marc
(https://i.ibb.co/ySxMqFK/Nock-Lock-CLA-2019-3881.jpg) (https://ibb.co/PQVbgGJ)
(https://i.ibb.co/gRz38pb/Nock-Lock-CLA-2019-3882.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jrgTY29)
(https://i.ibb.co/JytFDv6/Nock-Lock-CLA-2019-3880.jpg) (https://ibb.co/pRwrYfV)
(https://i.ibb.co/sHmvsJs/Nock-Lock-CLA-2019-3877.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6BnRDJD)
(https://i.ibb.co/mHDnTNX/Nock-Lock-CLA-2019-3876.jpg) (https://ibb.co/khHLBm9)
(https://i.ibb.co/MPq2Y7M/Nock-Lock-CLA-2019-3879.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7r7YwK2)
Is LC (ol lost cause) involved with this lock? For some reason I thought this was Liston's venture.
Dennis
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Dennis,
In speaking with LC at the show, I gathered that he and Liston are partners in the venture.
-Ron
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I am not a lock expert but this looks an awful lot like a Chambers’s late Ketland except for the pan. Is this lock appreciably that much better to justify the cost? Maybe for the purists who are looking to precisely reproduce an original gun, this is needed?
There is a lot of money spent on tooling for this lock and assembling it requires more
than simply assembling a group of parts.I know that in the past that the lock had to
be the cheapest part of the gun.This was a distressed market item even though fine wood
and a top of the line barrel were costly they sold readily but if anyone dared to ask a
decent price for a lock there was all kinds of static and griping.My own experiences
caused me to send most of my locks and triggers to Germany where the mindset IS
different and $3 will not kill a project. Now I do not care if anyone gripes about prices of
my locks and we can live just fine if I never make any more of them.
Be glad there are those who will make such odd items as a gun lock and don't expect
any of us to pay anyone to buy them.
Bob Roller
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The latest pictures confirm my earlier suspicion---the pan has parallel sides; why? The development costs for this project must be substantial and they would have been no higher to get the design right instead of wrong in several important areas.
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I’m not an avid student of later English flintlocks though clearly they were very refined machines. I guess not many of us gets exactly what we want when a new product comes out. To do that, we’d have to have designed it and built it. Still, it looks to be about the best PRODUCTION waterproof pan later English flintlock available (I know Bob Roller has made some beauties). I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s fast as well. I expect to see a lot of them used.
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The Nock flintlock I made for a target pistol project in Germany years
ago had a tapered bolster that would allow a flared lock panel and I
milled it off at the request of the German for this project.The moulds
for that plate,frizzen and cock now are in the hands of Les Barber or
Larry Zornes Mould and Gun Shop in Ohio.I think I still have a set of
these but have no interest in making a lock from them.I gave these
moulds to those two men and told them I was done and they could use them
for their own business if they wanted to. I made my own internal parts and
so far,after 40+years there have been no complaints.
Bob Roller
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The latest pictures confirm my earlier suspicion---the pan has parallel sides; why? The development costs for this project must be substantial and they would have been no higher to get the design right instead of wrong in several important areas.
The front and rear? Well dangit, my older (with correct cock) copy has such too. But then for two copies made by different outfits (I think) have such, how far "off" is it? I get the cock thing now, I didn't see it at first (never stop learning).
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The Nock flintlock I made for a target pistol project in Germany years
ago had a tapered bolster that would allow a flared lock panel and I
milled it off at the request of the German for this project.The moulds
for that plate,frizzen and cock now are in the hands of Les Barber or
Larry Zornes Mould and Gun Shop in Ohio.I think I still have a set of
these but have no interest in making a lock from them...
Bob Roller
I wonder if anyone here knows who cast up the parts/has the moulds for the Nock lock I got from Mr. Curtis. I think he was at the end of his parts run when I got mine--about 2008. Seems like he told me who made up the copy for him, or cast it, but I don't recall now (I didn't know anybody or any names much at that time).
This is the first real discussion of Nock's locks and copies thereof that I recall, so pardon my ignorance, but I'm digging learning about it. Especially since I've been tweaking and shooting a version for a while now.
No doubt I'd prefer if Mr. Roller made it, but I have two of his to utilize, plus my Nock- by other folks.
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As I said earlier,I had a fine original Nock from the right hand side of a double barreled shotgun and
it belonged to the late Lynton McKenzie. Externally there was VERY little difference in that shotgun
lock and my version for the Germans. I have a partially finished one that has the frizzen and frizzen
spring installed and is drilled for the tumbler and bridle screws and it is already spoken for if I can
get to it.The mechanism for the Germans was inspired by a John Manton owned by a Canadian.
It's simple,good looking and very functional and so far it has been in use over there for about 40
years.As cast,these lock plates had a tapered bolster that flared from narrower at the front than
at the rear.None of them went to Germany like that nor did the few I sold over here.
Bob Roller
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Do you have any pictures??
I posted some pictures in the "For Sale" section as I have one for sale. Look for Liston Rice English lock.
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Anybody who complains about the price of a good lock never made one. That's for sure.