AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: 45-110 on July 16, 2019, 07:17:05 PM
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This hunt is being offered by the questionable American Prairie Reserve.org that all the ranchers here are fighting. I read the rules before applying for the draw and was amazed it said no lead bullets. I wrote to them saying I was interested in a traditional Montana hunt using either my Hawken or Sharps. Here is their reply:
"Our Reserve Team has required the use of non-toxic shot for the health of the ecological environment where the harvests are taking place. Lead left on the ground can effect the plants living close by."
So even here in Montana there is a movement to ban lead bullets for our type of firearms. So sad indeed
kw
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Same kind of far left eco-nazi policy that stole the outdoors from Californians. There is zero science to back up this nonsense. On the contrary there is strong evidence of deception and fabricated data. I know for fact that the scientific evidence proving condors were poisoned with lead from bullets was fabricated by a shill "scientist" at UC Santa Cruz. If lead bullets were a toxic hazard then civil war battlefields would be devoid of wildlife.
I urge Montana hunters to mobilize before it is too late.
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A very quick search shows Monanta is one of the places LEAD is mined............
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You can always hunt in Colorado.
https://www.himountainbison.com/areas-served/colorado-buffalo-hunts/
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Cast yourself some Bismuth bullets.
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If they want to play silly people, I wouldn't go at all, KW.
Tell them lead is a Naturally occurring substance..... Too much stupid these days. Stupid with an agenda is worse.
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Cast yourself some Bismuth bullets.
Wrong hardness, too brittle, won't work. Suggesting it gives fuel to the wackos to put out out of business. I am obviously sensitive to this subject but it is justified.
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Not great odds to get a buffalo in Montana.
As far as states go, you can't get more wild than Montana, and for hunting, you can't get more wild than buffalo.
If you're an avid Montana hunter, love the taste of wild game, and you've already cut your teeth on other animals, it might be time to move on to something bigger. So what should you choose as your next kill?
The good news is that you can't get any bigger than a buffalo. The North American Bison is the largest big game animal on the continent and is one of the most exciting animals you can hunt. Unfortunately, up until 2005, hunting bison in Montana was illegal, but thanks to regulatory changes you don't have to worry as long as you have a tag.
And that's the problem.montana-fish-wildlife-and-parks
Since 2004, 92,341 Montana buffalo hunters have applied for a bison tag with Montana Fish, Wildlife, & Parks, and only 508 of them have received a bison tag. That means that if you apply for a tag you have a .55% chance of having your application selected.
To make matters worse, even if you get a tag and pay for the license, you might not harvest a buffalo. From 2005-2015, only 318 buffalo have actually been harvested in Montana, meaning that if you're part of the 508 hunters who got a tag, you have a 62.6% chance of actually killing a bison.
To put it all in perspective, if you're one of the 92 thousand people who applied for a tag during that time, your chance of killing a bison was .34%.
Not great odds.
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That's the most stupid thing I've ever heard of, I'd tell the APR to stick their hunt where the sun don't shine >:(
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Last I heard.....LEAD is PART OF THE ENVIRONMENT!!
I'd shun those folks like the plague!! >:( ::)
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You might want to contact the Flying D, which is one of Ted Turner's ranches, just outside of Bozeman. He used to allow buffalo shooting, and as far as I know, there was never any restrictions on projectile type. Note that I said buffalo shooting, not buffalo hunting. If you draw a state tag, you get an actual hunt. If you're on a private ranch, it's more like shooting cows from what I've seen.
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And that's when you carry a bunch of bismuth and (theoretically of course!) load with lead. Problem solved.
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Here is a good alternative to using lead shot for a buffalo hunt: the Lakota way. First, you ride in from all sides, encouraging the buffalo to run in a circle--letting them run straight away means you have to gather the meat from all over the prairie. Once they start this meat vortex, the bulls, somewhat tough chewing, move to the outside to protect the herd. Then you ride in among the animals to get at the cows, and especially the young, the tender. Using a quiver full of arrows, you get in lots of shots, with no fear of lead poisoning of the scavenging ravens and wolves. The hard part is surviving such a risky tactic.
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My best friend is full-blooded Lakota. I'll have to ask him about that method. It seems a bit risky.
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I refuse to support these crazy notions, and hopefully, if enough people are like minded, they'll shrivel and die ! [ the crazy notions, that is ! ]
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To address the carrying one ball, and using another, the CDFW in good old California have a test that tells them if the wound was made by a lead projectile. Also as far as I can tell, casting your own lead free projectile here isn’t an option.
Hungry Horse
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The only option is for all of us to stand up as one strong voice and tell our legislators we won't stand for this and to those who oppose us: VOTE THEIR ASSES OUT OF OFFICE! I know of what I speak as I live in the once great state of Oregon, that unfortunately is slipping into Socialism. Gather the true scientific data and wave it high for all to see or the only lead round ball shooting you are going to do is on private property.
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Ok this has gone political. Enough. Either offer alternative projectiles or hunting opportunities.
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I figured that last post might strike a nerve but it needed to be said.
As far as hunting buffalo in Montana look up Turtle Mound Buffalo Ranch on the Fort Peck Indian reservation. They offer buffalo hunts on cows, young bulls and trophy bulls. Make no mistake about it this is a "pasture hunt". They tell you that they are free to roam on a large piece of ground and that may be so but when it comes time to hunt your buffalo they drive you out near the buffalo, point out the one that is yours and you shoot it. There is a video that actually shows a hunter driving down a gravel road with a pasture on the other side. When they come to the buffalo he rolls down the window and fires his scoped C.F. Rifle at a bull 40 yards away. But if you want a buffalo and they do hunt them late enough in the winter that you will will get a beautiful robe and meat give this site a look. It's not for me but might be for some and they welcome muzzleloaders and patched round balls are fine to use.
The "Muskrat' has spoken.
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I am in CA and I mould my own lead-free roundball. Bismuth and tin alloy from rotometals. Another option is to buy ITX roundball and use that.
My advice? If anyone tries to ban lead in your state? Fight it with everything you have. I fought it when it came here--and lost. So now I hunt with lead-free options.
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To Ken Prather:
**edited in lieu of deletion-Dennis**
OK, OK, OK, moderator I will get to the point.
The non-lead options are truly horrible to work with, poor performance, and the manufactured products are 10 times the cost of lead. If this was my only choice I would shoot lead at private shooting facilities on private land, hunt the same or hunt in neighboring states that allow lead. As far as this Montana Bison hunting offer goes we need to boycott them and let them know why we as a shooting fraternity are boycotting them. I guess they have a right do what they want on their land but we have a right to choose how we respond to their offer.
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The problem is the traditional muzzleloader community is too small to have any power. We can fight the best we can but in the end we're going to lose.
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It's with an attitude like that we have already lost.
We may be a small number as compared to the shooting community as a whole but if every shooting club and single shooter speaks up our voices will be heard. It's bad enough our numbers are falling as many of us are getting older and some too old to compete but for those of us who love these "long rifles" we must stand up to those who want to do us harm.
I am not an activist by nature but living in the far "Left Coast" it is hard not to be scared of those who look on all shooters as dangerous and want to control and contain us to what they believe. As a group the "American Longrifles" should have a platform for all of us to speak as a combined "voice".
No more will be posted by "The Muskrat" on this topic.
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Never give up, never surrender. I'll keep fighting here in CA. But I will follow the law, and use alternatives if I have to. They do work-- just not ideal.
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The problem is the traditional muzzleloader community is too small to have any power. We can fight the best we can but in the end we're going to lose.
But- FIGHT YOU MUST! as long as it takes. Your offspring need to carry the fight - as long as it takes.
This is the never-ending push against us, we must endeavour to perverse! A well loved and indigenous - F- that - he was a INDIAN and proud of it, said those words in a movie just recently - well maybe 20 or is it 30? years ago. He was right- NEVER stop fighting for justice. The Lord is on your side.
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Well if I did use the rifle/projectile they wanted then the spiteful side of me would drop ten 54 caliber round balls out of my pocket on the ground while I was wiping blood off of my gutting knife.
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It's with an attitude like that we have already lost.
We may be a small number as compared to the shooting community as a whole but if every shooting club and single shooter speaks up our voices will be heard. It's bad enough our numbers are falling as many of us are getting older and some too old to compete but for those of us who love these "long rifles" we must stand up to those who want to do us harm.
I am not an activist by nature but living in the far "Left Coast" it is hard not to be scared of those who look on all shooters as dangerous and want to control and contain us to what they believe. As a group the "American Longrifles" should have a platform for all of us to speak as a combined "voice".
No more will be posted by "The Muskrat" on this topic.
I said we can fight and I will. I never give up on anything. However, some fights will be lost and our odds are low. You're preaching to the choir with your post to me.
I fought Colorado on making a .50 cal PRB illegal for elk. It was a losing battle and we lost.
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My original post about lead bullets for hunting sure brought out some passion!
Funny how some of the healthiest, lush floral and fauna environments are on the eastern battlefields, IE Gettysburg, Yorktown, and our own Little Big Horn. There is tons of lead sprinkled all over those places. I would like to hunt a Buff riding my horse and "Getting a stand", but with these rules forget it. I will stay with the elk on my place. No bismuth for me.
kw
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(https://i.ibb.co/YcHZQBn/DSCN0555.jpg) (https://ibb.co/StFrywY)
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Wow! That's big.
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I agree, 10 year old bull. This is the first time I have seen this picture. Impressive.
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Was that a Woods Bison variety?
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Just adding information for people to understand the facts of why and how. Animals are not eating metal from lead bullets and even if one did manage to swallow a bullet or fragment lodged in a piece of meat, it would pass through the rapid digestive system in the animal before any appreciable volume of metallic lead could be converted for biouptake. His name I forget but the man who was responsible for producing the completely fabricated lies used to push the lead birdshot ban admitted to fabricating the information falsifying the test methods. The waterfowl used in the production of lies were starved for many days before being given mostly lead birdshot mixed with some food because it was the only way to get the fowl to consume the shot pellets. In many cases even the starving bird would not eat enough shot to make for good pictures, so they were force-fed in the same manner the French torture fowl to produce foie gras (fatted liver). Except for some fowl feeding consistently in an area heavily contaminated with lead birdshot, it is extremely rare to find wild fowl consuming more than perhaps a stray pellet in their life time. Fowl are not as foolish as the people who claim they are and all one need do is observe them in the wild or look to the actual scientific testing proving without doubt that fowl do not readily consume that which they can gain no nutritional value from and they select irregular shaped rough grit, not smooth and round grit.
Lead isn't coming from bullets or birdshot, it is come from lead arsenate (PbHAsO4) and more than two dozen other pesticides, herbicides and rodentcides. Herbicides like monosodium methanearsonate (MSMA) are widely used and mostly abused with the results presenting as heavy metal toxicity which it is, but not from hunting bullets or other metallic lead which cannot readily convert for biouptake, but from the acetates which are ready for biouptake through consumption and contact. Glyphosate (Round Up) and 2,4-D (Agent Orange) and monosodium methanearsonate (MSMA) are three of the most widely used herbicides in the United States despite being banned in 29 other countries. Both of products cause extraction contamination where heavy metal acetates contained in pesticides, rodencides and other widely used products are uptaken by plants. In particular 2,4-D and MSMA cause normally unpalatable plants to become highly palatable to herbivores and omnivores who are being poisoned not only by the toxins in the herbicides themselves but also the heavy metal acetates which were uptaken by plants.
It remains scientifically, biologically and mathematically impossible for all the animals claims to be poisoned by lead not only to be poisoned by lead but more importantly poisoned by lead hunting ammunition. If this were the case, one could not take five steps anywhere in the woods without finding a bullet laying on the ground ready to be consumed by some unsuspecting animals. It is absurd to even consider the possibility, yet there is a mass of fools buying the lies and propaganda. Don't argue politics, argue science!
HK
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Was that a Woods Bison variety?
No, this bison came from stock from Elk Island National Park near Edmonton, Alberta, Canada. And they are plains bison.
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Thanks for that clarefication(sp) Taylor. That Bison looked so big I thought it might have come from Wood Buffalo National Park in northern Alberta. I think that strain is larger than the plains variety.
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Taylor, what would it take for a non-Canadian to come up to your neck of the woods and hunt bison? That is a heck of a good animal that you took. Lots of meat, and a wonderful hide.
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Craig: I'm not entirely sure. All bison hunts here are on a Limited Entry basis. I don't know how a non-resident could get in on the lottery. Likely, you would have to apply to a guide/outfitter, pay the fees he required, and make the journey to the Great White North. I do not know of any guide/outfitters who specialize in bison hunts. I have applied for years for a hunt in northern British Columbia, and have never been drawn. The critter whose hide I presented was on a commercial farm where this old bull refused to submit to the butcher, two years in a row, and I was asked to help out. He was released on the property and although contained by fences, it was definitely fair chase. He did his best to hide from me. And he was the most tenacious of life of any animal I have ever attempted to harvest.
I was offered the hide, but have two bison robes already, so turned it down. I regret that now...it is magnificent. I have his skull though - massive!
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Very good post, Helmut.
Very good buffalo robe, Taylor.
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I just did a little research, albiet after the fact, and found the following: the wood bison is LARGER than the plains animal and is what we have up here in northern Canada. The stock from Elk Island Park is woods bison, not plains. I had it reversed...sorry to mislead.
Thanks Richard.
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"2,4-D (Agent Orange) "
Sorry you are wrong. 2, 4,-5T is agent orange. 2,4-D is a synthetic dioxin, and is not particularly harmful. It is the selective broad leaf herbicide that people commonly use on the front lawn.
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Taylor, thank you so much for the information. I will probably have to confine my bison hunting to someone's "buffalo ranch".
When I lived in Oklahoma, there were several of these in my area, should have taken advantage of the opportunity.
One of my clients had me build him a "buffalo rifle" - .58 cal percussion. It shot well, but he almost always tried to overload it. And 300 gr of FFG will knock anyone onto their tailbone.
I do have some buffalo meat in the freezer, and tallow in the fridge. Good friends are great!
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Surely, 300gr can't be needed. A common buffalo gun back in the day was the 45/70. A 405gr bullet but only 70gr of powder.
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300 gr. is not needed. Someone does not understand black powder round ball ballistics and the effect on living things. They have 21st C magnumitis.
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"2,4-D (Agent Orange) "
Sorry you are wrong. 2, 4,-5T is agent orange. 2,4-D is a synthetic dioxin, and is not particularly harmful. It is the selective broad leaf herbicide that people commonly use on the front lawn.
Agent Orange was a 50/50 mix of 2,4,5,T and 2,4,D.
The dioxin in AO came from the production of 2,4,5,T. During the manufacturing process the compound had to be heated within a specified temperature range. If the upper limit of that range was exceeded then dioxin would form.
Anyway... Back to buffalo.
Mike
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The problem is the traditional muzzleloader community is too small to have any power. We can fight the best we can but in the end we're going to lose.
Then our tiny community should have virtually no impact on the "environment."
Right?
Mike
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Here is a good alternative to using lead shot for a buffalo hunt: the Lakota way. First, you ride in from all sides, encouraging the buffalo to run in a circle--letting them run straight away means you have to gather the meat from all over the prairie. Once they start this meat vortex, the bulls, somewhat tough chewing, move to the outside to protect the herd. Then you ride in among the animals to get at the cows, and especially the young, the tender. Using a quiver full of arrows, you get in lots of shots, with no fear of lead poisoning of the scavenging ravens and wolves. The hard part is surviving such a risky tactic.
I think I would go really OLD school and chase them off a cliff before I tried that.
Mike
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The problem is the traditional muzzleloader community is too small to have any power. We can fight the best we can but in the end we're going to lose.
Then our tiny community should have virtually no impact on the "environment."
Right?
Mike
Yes, and it's a good arguing point when we confront them.
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"I think I would go really OLD school and chase them off a cliff before I tried that."
Mike
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I've always wondered how they would have hunted Buff in the really, really, really old school - before the Spaniards and horses?
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"I think I would go really OLD school and chase them off a cliff before I tried that."
Mike
You have to be an Indian to use that method. :)
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We have several buffalo jumps up here in Alberta. They were used periodically over a Long period of time.
Trouble is, once they start over the cliff, there is no way to "turn the tap off".
Some show a great depth of buffalo remains, with only the top layer probably utilized.
A chap I know found an iron knife at one of these jumps. Looks like it was made from an iron tyre (tire) off a wagon.
Below are a few images of "Dry Island " buffalo jup, near Big Valley, AB.
(https://i.ibb.co/GC0H0RX/DSCN0791.jpg) (https://ibb.co/p4xhxdg)
(https://i.ibb.co/82w7Vxp/DSCN0788.jpg)[/url
[url=https://ibb.co/jvcm3N7](https://i.ibb.co/N685Wvw/DSCN0797.jpg) (https://ibb.co/GkD5jML)
(https://i.ibb.co/v3x5Dff/DSCN0792.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zXhcNCC)
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Years ago, my wife and I visited "Head Smashed In Buffalo Jump" in Southern Alberta.
There is a very good museum there.
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The American Prairie Reserve is a group of Over-Seas tree huggers with more money than they will ever spend, that have the ultimate goal of Turning North East Montana, and eventually a large portion of the state, into a "Jurassic Park" of sorts to mimic what you would have seen here in the 1750's.
My Brother and nearly every Rancher like him, and residents of the small towns in that area, are fighting this at every angle. The APR wants to force everyone off their land, out of their small towns, and out of their proposed "Serengeti" regardless of how much land you own or how many generations your family has been there. A few landowners have actually sold to them because they offer unbelievable sums of money for these properties, especially that which boarders any BLM or Government Lands in the area. The land will not be responsibly grazed because they will rip out all existing fences and any other improvements inside the boundary. Our Beef industry, and that of neighboring states, will be at risk because these Buffalo will not be vaccinated against Brucellosis, Mad Cow Disease, Hoof and Mouth Disease, or any other Bovine diseases. They want it "Natural".
Google "Save A Cowboy, Stop The American Prairie Reserve" to educate yourselves and see if you can help. This is a fight we must win! If they get their way, Where does it stop?
https://www.northernag.net/save-the-cowboy-stop-the-apr-what-does-this-mean
My 2.5 cents.
Dave in Montana
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The tree huggers here got the spring bear hunting season eliminated. Now, they're complaining about bears in their back yards. They're so stupid.
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"I think I would go really OLD school and chase them off a cliff before I tried that."
Mike
You have to be an Indian to use that method. :)
I have some Comanche blood in there somewhere Pete. ;D
Mike
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"I think I would go really OLD school and chase them off a cliff before I tried that."
Mike
You have to be an Indian to use that method. :)
I have some Comanche blood in there somewhere Pete. ;D
Mike
Then all you need now is a cliff. :)
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I have some Comanche blood in there somewhere Pete. ;D
Mike
more than 1:1,024th? ;D
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I have some Comanche blood in there somewhere Pete. ;D
Mike
more than 1:1,024th? ;D
Never really did the math on degree of blood. One of my great great something-or-others was married to Quanah Parker... Which isn't saying much, he had several wives... 8? 9?
Only reason I know is that my dad's folks are Mormon and they traced a lot of the family's genealogy. Somebody in the family has a picture of him sitting at the table with several of the wives and my ancestor is amongst them. If I remember correctly, her children were from a previous marriage and she and the Chief had none together... So I don't get to claim any of his bloodline. Lol
I'll see if I can find out who has the picture... It's nothing fancy, just mildly interesting.
Now I just need that buffalo herd and a cliff. Lol
Mike
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I have some Comanche blood in there somewhere Pete. ;D
Mike
more than 1:1,024th? ;D
Never really did the math on degree of blood. One of my great great something-or-others was married to Quanah Parker... Which isn't saying much, he had several wives... 8? 9?
Only reason I know is that my dad's folks are Mormon and they traced a lot of the family's genealogy. Somebody in the family has a picture of him sitting at the table with several of the wives and my ancestor is amongst them. If I remember correctly, her children were from a previous marriage and she and the Chief had none together... So I don't get to claim any of his bloodline. Lol
I'll see if I can find out who has the picture... It's nothing fancy, just mildly interesting.
Now I just need that buffalo herd and a cliff. Lol
Mike
Howdy Cuz (sorta),
I'm related to Quanah's ma, Cynthia Ann.
Fred
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Pleased to make your acquaintance Fred!
2 guys should have an easier time chasing buffalo off a cliff! Lol
Mike
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make sure your horse doesn't follow the buffalo over the cliff. They're dumb enough to do it. It's better to ride a mule. They're smart and won't go over.
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Pete,
Also, don't stand at the bottom of the cliff waiting for them to drop.
It is said that's how "Head smashed in" buffalo jump got it's name!
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Catching a buffalo could be difficult.
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Pete,
Also, don't stand at the bottom of the cliff waiting for them to drop.
It is said that's how "Head smashed in" buffalo jump got it's name!
I assume that was a translation from what the indigenous people called it.
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The problem is the traditional muzzleloader community is too small to have any power. We can fight the best we can but in the end we're going to lose.
But- FIGHT YOU MUST! as long as it takes. Your offspring need to carry the fight - as long as it takes.
This is the never-ending push against us, we must endeavour to perverse! A well loved and indigenous - F- that - he was a INDIAN and proud of it, said those words in a movie just recently - well maybe 20 or is it 30? years ago. He was right- NEVER stop fighting for justice. The Lord is on your side.
With due respect, I do believe you meant to use the word “persevere”?
Ez
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Chief Dan George's character in "The Outlaw Josey Wales".
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Pete,
Also, don't stand at the bottom of the cliff waiting for them to drop.
It is said that's how "Head smashed in" buffalo jump got it's name!
Feel sorry for the first guy to figure THAT out.
Mike
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The problem is the traditional muzzleloader community is too small to have any power. We can fight the best we can but in the end we're going to lose.
But- FIGHT YOU MUST! as long as it takes. Your offspring need to carry the fight - as long as it takes.
This is the never-ending push against us, we must endeavour to perverse! A well loved and indigenous - F- that - he was a INDIAN and proud of it, said those words in a movie just recently - well maybe 20 or is it 30? years ago. He was right- NEVER stop fighting for justice. The Lord is on your side.
With due respect, I do believe you meant to use the word “persevere”?
Ez
oh- dang-nabbit - should have checked the spelling - must have been late & maybe too much medicine down the throat tube.
LOL- just checked the time of that post: 9:59 and that is exactly 2hrs. slow to our time. It was late. Quite possibly, I should have been in bed,
not squinting at the type with one eye closed. ::)
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I have some Comanche blood in there somewhere Pete. ;D
Mike
more than 1:1,024th? ;D
Never really did the math on degree of blood. One of my great great something-or-others was married to Quanah Parker... Which isn't saying much, he had several wives... 8? 9?
Only reason I know is that my dad's folks are Mormon and they traced a lot of the family's genealogy. Somebody in the family has a picture of him sitting at the table with several of the wives and my ancestor is amongst them. If I remember correctly, her children were from a previous marriage and she and the Chief had none together... So I don't get to claim any of his bloodline. Lol
I'll see if I can find out who has the picture... It's nothing fancy, just mildly interesting.
Now I just need that buffalo herd and a cliff. Lol
Mike
Quanah called 'variety'....the spice of life!! ;D ::)