AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: nemovir on July 18, 2019, 07:25:56 PM
-
Hello...yep, bored again.
I have read a lot of comments about turning a $1000 kit into a $500 gun, but I never seen an example of one on this forum. all I have seen are basically museum quality rifles.
Can I see some picture what a really badly made rifle from a kit looks like?
-
Can’t do that without insulting someone.
-
oh...that's not my intention. Just curious to see what is consider a bad job. I thought guys would show what their first attempt look like. First attempt rarely turn out as they hoped.
-
Can’t do that without insulting someone.
Why not? We all have thick skins....don't we? I've posted pics of some of MY $#@*, so.... 8)
-
I'm looking for the pictures of my West (St. Louis) County Special trade gun made in the 1970's. It has a full choked 12 gauge shotgun barrel, maybe from a Marlin goose gun. All the barrel markings were lost when it was breeched for a flint lock. Sort of meant to be a mid 18th century trade gun. It had an 1850's brass scroll trigger guard. I think the trigger may have come from the shotgun that was parted out for the barrel. The stock had the dished cheek piece of a 1777 French fusil and all sorts of excess wood. It has a Lott lock that must have had extensive work done to make it spark.
This doesn't quite fit the description, but it certainly wasn't museum quality (and still isn't but its much better). I suspect it was made from spare parts laying around and they turned a pile of odd parts into a flint fowler that would shoot, but there was nothing in this old gun that made it particularly beautiful. I changed the trigger guard, added a front sight and took off a lot of wood. Its still not great, but its a lot better.
-
I'm humble enough to share my first gun. Its uglier than a warthog that fell out of the ugly tree, and hit all the branches on the way down. I'll also include my latest, to show how far I've come in 5 years.
This forum has been the most helpful resource to help me grow.
(https://i.ibb.co/Qpwnqx4/FB-IMG-1563497727921.jpg)[/url
[url=https://ibb.co/2FVhPfq](https://i.ibb.co/6y9wbfY/FB-IMG-1563497691811.jpg) (https://ibb.co/WGJFdRL)
(https://i.ibb.co/qp0pY6f/FB-IMG-1563497698891.jpg) (https://ibb.co/HqNqTZs)
(https://i.ibb.co/k5WpFCq/FB-IMG-1563497709249.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zQ01wvP)
(https://i.ibb.co/NKpjbtG/20190704-121020.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7KVWLj0)
-
Your first gun is a remarkable piece of work Justin. You have indeed come a long way.
-
Better than my first (& only) one, Justin.
-
If it shoots well, it's always good.
-
Can’t do that without insulting someone.
I'd gladly post some photos of some of my more infamous chop-and-gob jobs, so that way, the OP can see what everyone's referring to as taking $1000 in parts and turning it into $100 in "gun", with no one getting their knickers in a twist.
Unfortunately, I (1) don't have a camera, other than my antiquated flip-phone; and, (2) don't have much of a computer (just this sadly overloaded little laptop that's got so many outdated "updates" in archives, it won't even open saved photos... or save any new ones; let alone "talk" and load any photos from my flip-phone).
So you'll have to use your imagination, but suffice it to say, a poor hand can easily ruin a nice pile of decent quality parts.
-
Ahh first guns, the cost for my parts was $750 at the time, Rice barrel, Chambers lock, Fred Miller barrel inletting and ramrod drilling. It would be a stretch for this gun to be worth the cost of parts.
(https://i.ibb.co/bbsCq81/beck-on-the-deck.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wcSP3xy)
I did get better, plank build #2, a 12ga fowler;
(https://i.ibb.co/5TX5Y1p/fowler-selfies-003.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
-
here is a good example of a first build coupled with a lack of knowledge. way too much wood left on it, flat sides (one of taylor's "favorite goofs "), transition from the lock panels to the triggerguard not quite right etc.,etc,etc.... maybe some day i'll try and fix it but right now it shoulders and shoots real fine. i'm kinda leery of pulling the escutchins and then i'd need to scrape and re-stain the whole of it.
(https://i.ibb.co/GdLxSxx/1563629015895.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://i.ibb.co/2vZSwKT/1563629026242.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://i.ibb.co/ykgdMZn/1563629026522.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://i.ibb.co/gzCWp4D/1563629028701.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://i.ibb.co/nRLGt9M/1563629064587.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://i.ibb.co/Hq9xxxY/1563629093385.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://i.ibb.co/r5Q648g/1563629111340.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://i.ibb.co/51HNk3C/1563629126025.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://i.ibb.co/8c2qfzZ/1563629215261.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://i.ibb.co/tcGrtg9/1563629229946.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://i.ibb.co/pbgjf5C/1563629287303.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
-
Here's my first. I was so ignorant at that point in time that I didn't know Lehigh's were supposed to be very difficult to build, so I went ahead and built one.
I'm still killing deer with it.
(https://i.ibb.co/w7QM4k1/15-Stock-1-Feb.jpg) (https://ibb.co/FXYgzrt)
(https://i.ibb.co/Zd9Qc8y/15-Stock-Left-b-2-Feb.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1ZcCRqH)
(https://i.ibb.co/DYjJrcD/Muzzle-2.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://i.ibb.co/sgNwq6q/15-Triggerguard1-Feb.jpg) (https://ibb.co/HKbzqxq)
-
It would be a stretch for this gun to be worth the cost of parts.
And why is that? Doesn't look that bad to these old eyes.
-
I was loaned what they called the "tomato stake" when I went to Arizona for the winter. It was a Douglas barreled percussion .32 that someone years ago had spent a lot of time on doing a pretty terrible job of gun building complete with carving that should have never happened. The funny thing was that the darn thing was a real shooter and I finished pretty high up in the matches I shot with it. I think it pays to remember that someone, somewhere, was real proud of what he had created. At least for awhile. I know I've been there myself. I think I addressed a similar subject in another thread.
JS
-
My first rifle is long gone, but it did shoot well. The problem was that I thought that a pre carve stock was exactly that , so there was a lot of extra wood that didn't belong. The notion that the barrel supports the fore stock rather than the other way around was still foreign to me. Getting the opportunity to see and handle other rifles built by folks who knew better was a real help.
-
I used the stocks on my first two rifles for firewood. Used the barrels and locks on later builds which I sold.
-
I would tote any of the rifles displayed in this thread.
I've given some consideration to buying the parts and building my own. But I need to work on my patience first. I tend to get frustrated and then want to hurry... Big no-no with wood.
Maybe one day.
Mike
-
Thank you for providing Pics. I think you all are too hard on yourselves as it pertains to the rifles. As for the inlays and carving, I've learned it's best to practice on another piece of wood first.
-
If you watch the classifieds section closely, every now and then you'll see a gun that fits the OP criteria. And some of those are from the 70's boom when parts and pieces were a bit more difficult to source.
My first one is a wreck, but it's My Wreck and it works for me until I make some less-wrecked ones. Haven't made any pics of the parts I don't like, and maybe I never will. But I goofed one side too narrow (handsawing in a hurry error) and the tang isn't great. Time will tell where I put my goofs in the future.
-
Sometimes I wonder whether the present quality from our professional gunmakers has gone too far. I have become quite fond of citing the rack of originals in Greg, Brenda and Chuck Dixons wall behind the registers. When Chuck showed me some of those guns, there were file marks, small gaps, rough spots and boo-boos all over the place. He pointed to lighting, materials, and profit pressure on the old masters.
I wonder whether the guns by the pro's in this forum are too good to be authentic. I'll never touch their quality because I only work in daylight and have only a drill as a power tool and I am just not that good. My first two guns make me cringe, but I got better over time and have found that one of the fun things in this hobby is surfing this forum, stripping down an early piece, using what has been learned, and re-making that Frankenrifle.
-
I've always thought that. A replica shouldn't look any better than the original.
As a Hawken fan. I've never seen an original Hawken that impressed me with the workmanship. It doesn't mean I love them any less.
-
The only gun I ever built is a TC .54 cal hawkin kit back about 86 or 87. Built it during a bad winter with nothing else to do. It took me about a month to get it completely finished. Spent time with the stock, no carving though. Plum browned the barrel, it has since turned dark. It went for years without being shot much after the initial month after being built. It only got shot occasionally over the years until just lately. It is a decent shooter and I am somewhat proud of it. I'll never sell it as it was a gift from my wife for Xmas in 85. She has passed but I still have the gun she gave me. I did take the original brass butt plate off, did some sanding and put a plastic shotgun stock on in place of the overly curved brass plate. It was too curvy for all the heavy winter clothing one had to wear back east in the winter sometimes.
-
Being blessed with an utter lack of taste and judgement, I'd like to volunteer to help you poor souls liberate yourselves from the shame and embarrassment of owning these rejects. I'll offer this valuable service free of charge, of course, being a selfless philanthropist and all.
You're welcome.
-
I hate to tell you guys this, but one of the best shooting muzzleloaders I ever shot was so far beyond just average ugly that when I fell heir to it, I didn’t even shoot it before I sold it. I shot it about a year later at the local gun clubs range, and have been trying to buy it back ever since. It had a birch Civil War rifle stock blank from Dixie, stain green with chromium trioxide, and cut off to half stock, with about a two pound lead nose cap. It also had a barrel from Dixie designed to convert a trapdoor Springfield into a muzzleloader. The rest of the hardware was hand forged out of most likely old manurespreader parts, and old spam cans. It shot groups I can only dream of.
Hungry Horse
-
My first gun. Not a single operation went correctly. I feel stuck with this little smoothbore that occurred when I tried to merge a Little Feller with a .54 smoothbore barrel.
Cross pins were coming out in different zip codes, I can't get rid of that stupid carving just in front of the lock and behind the rear thimble, the butt plate would probably fit better upside down, and I had to put this absurdly wide patchbox lid on just to replace the hideous brass one I tried to make after watching the Hershel House video. Should have kidnapped him.
(https://i.ibb.co/2MwmjM8/mrRascal.jpg) (https://ibb.co/c8PMN8b)
The REAL problem happens when a Frankenrifle like this shoots like the blazes. Go figure
-
The REAL problem happens when a Frankenrifle like this shoots like the blazes. Go figure
Apparently "ugly" rifles try harder. ;)
-
The REAL problem happens when a Frankenrifle like this shoots like the blazes. Go figure
Apparently "ugly" rifles try harder. ;)
Kinda like the ugly wife being the best cook.
-
Are the ugly rifles teased, bullied, and shunned by the pretty rifles in the rifle rack at the end of a days shoot at the club??
Do they need therapy??
How about a national support group??
URA
Ugly Rifles Anonymous
Do they appear on The Jerry Springer Show complaining about their owner's lack of artistic ability??
When they take the lie detector test, do they lie about Ugly Rifle No. 2 being their offspring??
Do they attack the pretty rifles, and have to be restrained by security??
Does the audience boo them, or cheer them??
Do they return home in shame, only to be consumed by wood borers and rust, never to shoot again??
These are the questions we must ask ourselves.
What part did we play in our Ugly Rifle's demise??
-
Life is short.
Don't waste your time shooting ugly rifles.
Simple, plain, and without embellishments doesn't mean ugly.
Simple, plain, and without embellishments made with a high quality lock, stock and barrel can be beautiful.
This is an example.
The "Muskrat" has spoken.
(https://i.ibb.co/1b85VjY/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LvnWwHD)
-
All mine fall into this category.
-
The rifle I treasure the most is was given to me by a dying friend, I suspect it was someone's first build from the early 70s.
Nothing was done right on this gun, lots of epoxy to fill sloppy inlets, the pins are finishing nails with the heads left on and go in one place and out in places that makes you wonder how the holes were drilled, most have multiple holes.
The lock panel make you really wonder about the guy who built it, I understand his name was Art Vandrervogle, he booked hunts in Africa for the likes of Fred Bear.
(https://i.ibb.co/0BQmyfz/biffs-lock-panel.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3fk4m0P)
But... If you couple a Roller lock with a Bill Large barrel and put them in the finest wood I have ever seen you get something special, warts and all.
(https://i.ibb.co/8z4VCsm/biffs-gun-wood-in-sunlight.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
It is also a one hole shooter at 50 yards and has put many, many deer in my freezer.
(https://i.ibb.co/6B1Gpkj/silver-buck.jpg) (https://ibb.co/74RBTqs)
-
Just a footnote; I was shooting an archery tournament with a friend a year or so ago, he mentioned meeting a guy who was interested in archery at an airport terminal (I think). The guy said his late dad used to book hunts for Fred Bear in Africa, the son's last name was Vandervogle. It wasn't until my friend mentioned the last name to me that I told him the story about the rifle, small world.
-
Ugly is in the eye of the beholder. We all have different likes and dislikes.
I won't call fancy grained wood as ugly but I don't like it. Give me plain wood, no brass or flash of any kind and no engraving. Browned steel is what I like.
An ugly gun to me is one that isn't accurate.
-
Methinks my ugly gun is pretty from most angles. The uglies are mostly re-worked, gone-or fixed/hidden. From one or two angles there are errors glaring (to folks like us). The non-shooting public "ooh and aaah" over the modest curly maple and the sleek lines of any decent longrifle. I get a kick out of that. And it helps me "quit freaking out" over the little stuff.
The best solution to an ugly gun is to make another gun-less ugly.
Rinse, repeat as necessary.
-
WadePatten...The best solution to an ugly gun is to make another gun-less ugly.
Yup
-
My guns aren't "ugly", IMHO; but they (actually, maybe three at most) are kinda plain, sorta like a girlfriend's spinster sister....who knows how to cook.....and shoot...and keep toes warm.... 8)
-
My first gun would have shot itself if it could ;D
-
Capgun, read your description of your "ugly gun", and it took me over an hour to stop laughing so hard I couldn't type!
Eric also had me laughing at the exploits of Vandervogle and Fred Bear. And his archery friend.
You guys are all great, even the infamous Muskrat Mike. Tis a pleasure to be in the company of great people like I find here. Maintain my sense of humor while I chop maple into splinters and wonder if I can weld that barrel strong enough.
-
Craig: Th"Muskrat" is pleased you enjoy our opinions (right and wrong) and sense of humor.
The "Muskrat" has spoken.
-
I have to ask Mike. What's with your love for Muskrats?
-
OldMtnMan:
Years ago like most of us, other shooters chose my "shooting name". Living out here in the far Western USA I wore lots of fur (Rocky Mountain Fur Trapper). I was given the handle "MuskratMike" and it stuck. Still have a muskrat pelt sewed onto the strap of my shooting bag, and always will even though my persona has changed to the late 1700's long Hunter or market hunter.
How about you?
This could be the start of an interesting new topic: shooting names and stories behind them!
-
They just call me old mountain man. :)
-
A feller I know had a rifle so ugly that he took it outside and shot it! Sorry, couldn't resist. 8)
-
Okay, that's funny I don't care who you are!
Hanshi: if "The Muskrat" ever finds himself in the great state of Main I am going to have to look you up.
-
I don't think you'll ever find yourself in Main. :)
I know, I know. Correcting spelling means I'm an idiot.
-
The rein in maine falls manely on the plane. :P
-
The rein in maine falls manely on the plane. :P
How about: The rain in Maine falls mainly as snow?
-
My first gun. Not a single operation went correctly. I feel stuck with this little smoothbore that occurred when I tried to merge a Little Feller with a .54 smoothbore barrel.
Cross pins were coming out in different zip codes, I can't get rid of that stupid carving just in front of the lock and behind the rear thimble, the butt plate would probably fit better upside down, and I had to put this absurdly wide patchbox lid on just to replace the hideous brass one I tried to make after watching the Hershel House video. Should have kidnapped him.
I am laughing so @!*% hard at your tale I nearly lost bladder control!
One Eye
-
This warty rifle won the squirrel shoot this year at Hefley Rendezvous.
(https://i.ibb.co/rcndXd8/PB141909-zps49c06c67.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VQXwkwn)
(https://i.ibb.co/gj0w5PF/PB141910-zpsf99f2c81.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DVBkx8g)
(https://i.ibb.co/dQwhgYc/PB141912-zps86dbed1f.jpg) (https://ibb.co/K9p1wvG)
(https://i.ibb.co/RYmNxyB/PB141911-zpsc676c160.jpg) (https://ibb.co/KbkDMwL)
-
This one got second place, iirc.
(https://i.ibb.co/7bL4g0d/100-7478.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Pt0QTVv)
(https://i.ibb.co/y4FNfw8/100-7521.jpg) (https://ibb.co/MBkg2YR)
-
Beats me how some builders besmirch their own rifles which, IMHO, look really good; often so good that I'd love to own them. I'd say bragging about them is usually quite justified. ???
-
Since I am not a builder, I can besmirch away. ;D That rifle of Taylor's is a beauty, for sure. No warts.
-
Me too, Daryl. Taylor is in a totally different class, if I may so presume. I guess I always try and dig out the "good" in a gun some might call "bad". Like the guy whose friend call his wife ugly. and he agreed but added that she sure could evermore cook.