AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: cshirsch on July 27, 2019, 10:46:21 PM
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I can't believe that just happened! A completely fake Hawken just went for $12,000!!!!!!
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Good Lord, tell me more/ Dave 8) 8)
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I have no idea what specific piece you're referencing but I'm not surprised at all. This has been going on for years and years. Once something is sold at a legitimate price - whether the item is legitimate or not - it then becomes legitimate. And don't dare you tell the buyer otherwise.
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8) 8) 8)... Been watching on & off,... saw this one sell, too,... generic cap rifles and Lemans are going cheap,.... ??? ??? ???
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It is a New York rifle. The S. HAWKEN stamp is totally bogus!!!!
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I can't believe that just happened! A completely fake Hawken just went for $12,000!!!!!!
Ok, fake Hawken just sold for $12k.
Sold where? Sold when? Listed by? No link to auction/sales site? Without more info, some could call this claim completely fake.
It is a New York rifle. The S. HAWKEN stamp is totally bogus!!!!
Where is photo of this bogus ‘S. HAWKEN’ stamp?
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https://holabirdamericana.liveauctiongroup.com/S-Hawken-Rifle-1850s-JMD-10068_i33856352
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Reading the previous posts I couldn't resist but to stare at the train wreck. What I know about Hawkens...well, actually I know nothing about Hawkens but that stamp is shockingly bad. It's even worse when you consider that at least two bidders thought it was legit.
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Followed the link. Wow. I have a very hard time believing that a genuine buyer ran that up to 12K.
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Heck that thing isn’t even a good replica.
Hungry Horse
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I gotta get me one of those Hawken stamps and start making some genuine Hawkenhiemer guns. That's where the good money is! ;D
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I thought that gun would sell for $400. Unbelievable. So unbelievable I wonder if there was some shill bidding ? Been a long time since I saw an auction with such bad pics and bad descriptions
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I gotta get me one of those Hawken stamps and start making some genuine Hawkenhiemer guns. That's where the good money is! ;D
Barnum was RIGHT!I think TOW has those stamps in their catalog.
Tom Dawson had the one FROM the Hawken shop/Gemmer Estate
but he also identified his copies on the bottom flat of the barrel
There os an OHIO rifle in our Huntington Museum of Art that has
the Hawken name stamped with the same style of stencils I use
on my locks and triggers.Several years ago all the gun cases were opened
for periodic cleaning and I got a GOOD look at this rifle and told the
curator it was bogus but she didn't seem to care. It was high enough
in the display case so only an uncommonly tall person might see that
bit of fakery.
Bob Roller
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Just because folks have money to spend
doesn't make them smart with it.
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The letters were individually stamped with modern dies.
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The letters were individually stamped with modern dies.
Agree about letters, definitely are in a modern looking font and not consistent with other S. Hawken stamped barrels. Also appears done at a different time than the word ‘steel’ next to it, plus looks to have been worked with a stone or file. Wonder if the word ‘steel’ is part of a ‘cast steel’ stamp from the late 1800s?
Anyway, almost looks like the S. Hawken stamp was added by a kid. Did any of us ever scratch something like DB or maybe DC into our Red Ryders after watching a TV show??
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Here's a photo of the 'Hawken' rifle from the auction (I rotated the photo so you won't get a crook in your neck trying to read 'S.Hawken') You'll have to click on the image & enlarge it to be able to read the stamping. At least he didn't spell Hawken with an 'i' - as in 'hawkin'.
P.T. Barnum was right - 'there is a sucker born every minute". Now where did I leave that CVA Mountain Rifle.........
(https://i.ibb.co/2hD49Ft/33856352-5.jpg) (https://ibb.co/54NH018)
Mike
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Is the adjustable sight on the gun a modern sight?
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It appears that there was an additional $3,000 buyer premium.
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Well golly geeze...maybe there's big money for my T.C. Hawkings after all. Now where did I put my stains, files and stamps...money to be made here..!! Yeah think...? Maybe not...Oldtravler
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I saw that too, and thought oh dear Lord...….
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(https://i.ibb.co/CWx286v/fakehawken.png) (https://imgbb.com/)
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Yes, 'CAST STEEL'. That is a New York made rifle and they used cast steel barrels at times.
Here's a photo of the 'Hawken' rifle from the auction (I rotated the photo so you won't get a crook in your neck trying to read 'S.Hawken') You'll have to click on the image & enlarge it to be able to read the stamping. At least he didn't spell Hawken with an 'i' - as in 'hawkin'.
P.T. Barnum was right - 'there is a sucker born every minute". Now where did I leave that CVA Mountain Rifle.........
(https://i.ibb.co/2hD49Ft/33856352-5.jpg) (https://ibb.co/54NH018)
Mike
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J M Davis auction?
Roger B.
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I gotta get me one of those Hawken stamps and start making some genuine Hawkenhiemer guns. That's where the good money is! ;D
Do that, square up your profile and make your cheek piece a little wonky. $100,000 guns all day long!!! ;)
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Well, it's better than the back action caplock half stocks believed to have been carried in the revolutionary war that I was seeing a few years ago on the less elite auction sites. Whenever I see these things I am reminded of Hacker Martin's letter reprinted in the foxfire series where he basically says he's got to put together a bunch of high dollar rifles for a buyer up north...you have to wonder how many of those rifles ended up in collections and became classics.
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Just think and wonder....
How many "antique/originals" change hands at these figures or more which are not what they were represented to be?
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Yes
I gotta get me one of those Hawken stamps and start making some genuine Hawkenhiemer guns. That's where the good money is! ;D
Do that, square up your profile and make your cheek piece a little wonky. $100,000 guns all day long!!! ;)
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But don't you think eventually the buyer of this gun will learn that it's not what they bargained for?
And then "fake makers" will be blamed, rather than auctioneers and ignorance.
Is that figure typical of what real-deal Hawken originals go for? I know specifics matter a bunch. Just curious, I expect to never be in "that market".
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I would like to hear Don Stith weigh in on this. Lots of red flags,but I know enough to be a problem to myself.What else is new? hahaha.
I had an excellent Andy Fautheree Hawken from 70s/80s a few years ago. I had no trouble getting good money when I sold it. This gun does look new Englandish to me,too. But------------???
Have a goodun, Dave F 8) 8)
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pity they had to deface a nice rifle!
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I was at the auction and I told their gun expert the Hawken was bogus, hand stamped name, not gang stamp. Brass furniture, not iron mounted. Jim Gordon's book shows about 20 original Hawkens, anyone with that book would never consider this gun. The buyer should go back after the auctioneer because at least one person on staff was made aware it was bogus, I pointed out all the flaws I saw to him. The entire auction was ridiculous, all sorts of guns misidentified. I bought a militia rifle, they called a shotgun. Restocked guns not identified as such.
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I wish I could have been to the auction to personally look at some of the stuff, but I absolutely have to agree that their descriptions were all over the place. When I was looking through the lots listed on the auction site I had to make myself look at the picture first before reading the description because the descriptions were just meaningless. I bought a really nice Lorenz civil war musket that was listed as a Kentucky rifle! There were a couple guns that were described as Brown Besses that were nowhere near being Brown Besses. A lot, if not most, of their stuff was just cobbled together junk.
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I was at the auction and I told their gun expert the Hawken was bogus...
Hey welcome to the forum and thanks for weighing in here with "scene of the transaction" details.
Wondering if the buyer has discovered his error.
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my brother made a hawkins years ago, it is an exact duplicate of one in the hawkin book. all pictures were enlarged to make this rifle. this is not a hacked out rifle, built to the highest standers. i have not talked to my brother, but knowing him, he would price it at 10.000. we are selling most of our guns as we are getting older.
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Caveat Emptor!Let the buyer beware in guns or anything else.There was a local
huckster here in Huntington WV that tried to pass off a car as a 1932 Duesenberg.
It was displayed in a former Nissan show room and it was an obvious fake made
up from several different cars.From the windshield forward it was a Cadillac V12
or V16 and had a 454 GM engine and automatic transmission.Wire wheels probably
from a mid 1930's Packard and a convertible coupe body from who knows what.
I think it was priced at a half million$. Good old P.T.Barnum,he KNEW about people.
Bob Roller
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my brother made a hawkins years ago, it is an exact duplicate of one in the hawkin book. all pictures were enlarged to make this rifle. this is not a hacked out rifle, built to the highest standers. i have not talked to my brother, but knowing him, he would price it at 10.000. we are selling most of our guns as we are getting older.
So are you saying the gun discussed here is the gun your brother made?
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john,this is not the rifle in discussion here. this is a high grade rifle and worth the the price. thanks for the reply.
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The rifle was made in New York. Trust me.
I would like to hear Don Stith weigh in on this. Lots of red flags,but I know enough to be a problem to myself.What else is new? hahaha.
I had an excellent Andy Fautheree Hawken from 70s/80s a few years ago. I had no trouble getting good money when I sold it. This gun does look new Englandish to me,too. But------------???
Have a goodun, Dave F 8) 8)
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That is CRAZY! Even I can tell from the photos that that's no Hawken. As Mr. Roller noted, "let the buyer by beware". This is clearly a case of know what you're buying before you buy it. This gives me some mixed emotions as I know I shouldn't feel good about the guy that's 12K richer off this gun. But on the other hand, my goodness, this buyer is clearly a fool separated from his money and it's hard to feel bad for him either.
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Perhaps those "all over the place" descriptions were quite intentional. Re-read the description about this particular rifle: Ky halfstock and then St. Louis; all of the extraneous information about S. Hawken and then Jacob and the chlolera outbreak; and, finally the bit about "owners were" etc., etc., etc. All of that extra blather strikes me as a smoke screen. Not a direct claim about this particular rifle but perhaps by inference?
J.B.
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I attended an auction where the hired expert appraiser described a real deal minty griswold and gunnison revolver as a replica. I was not expert on confederate revolvers so I gave it no notice. The expert then had a shill buy it for a paltry sum. A week later is appeared in a local shop for $15K. The auction house was not interested when informed.
The "expert" died a about a year later. Karma?
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I highly doubt the buyer did any real research on Hawkins before making this purchase and he may well be the kind of guy
whose pockets are deep enough that he buys what he wants when he wants it. I know he wasn't saving and waiting for the
day he could purchase the piece of history he always dreamed of or at least I hope not. I'm confident it's hanging on his wall
where he loves to tell his friends what a treasure it is. And all of them believe it.
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I highly doubt the buyer did any real research on Hawkins ... I'm confident it's hanging on his wall
where he loves to tell his friends what a treasure it is. And all of them believe it.
Because we've heard zero other about this piece of work and transaction, I'd say this is indeed the most plausible case.
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I'm not very knowledgable about Hawkenses but that isn't even close. If there really is a buyer and this isn't the auction buying its own fake, then some one find that guy and give him my name. I got a bunch of twenty year old original Rupp's, Beck's, Bucks counties, and even a few Ohio guns I'll let him have for slightly more than the Hawken.