AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: Sweeney on August 04, 2019, 12:36:02 AM
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.40 Rice barrel, 38", square rifling, .395 ball, 40 grs 3F. Need advice on interpreting these patches. Gun is recent build and shooting well @ 25 yds but it loads almost too easily. Been using heavy denim in my .58 and it takes great effort to seat the ball (shoots very well). Could I try the denim with this .395?
(https://i.ibb.co/D7ctCtV/IMG-0475.jpg) (https://ibb.co/55p686M)
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You're probably going to get lots of response saying that the patch is too thin or the weave isn't tight enough. If the Rice barrel is new it will take time to "shoot in". Until that happens the fraying will continue. It looks there is no burn through although it is close. I have a Kibler SMR with a 46 inch .40 caliber swamped barrel. Mine also easily loads with.395 round balls and .010 pillow ticking. Try it out to 50 yards and see how it does. I shoot 60 grains of Goex 3F and have won several shoots with it. Before you get too crazy trying new stuff keep with what works unless it doesn't then move on to something else. The attached photo is from 50 yards off a bench with the above mentioned rifle and loads. The red bull is just under 3-inches across. With my 67 year old eyes I don't think I would change anything. Oh and by the way my patches look very similar to yours.
(https://i.ibb.co/N27VBN6/bull-jpg.jpg) (https://ibb.co/HTXF8PD)
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.40 Rice barrel, 38", square rifling, .395 ball, 40 grs 3F. Need advice on interpreting these patches. Gun is recent build and shooting well @ 25 yds but it loads almost too easily. Could I try the denim with this .395?
IMHO - the crown might be where the cutting of the patch was taking place. Smoothing the crown will help. The barrel maker's machine cuts at the muzzle always leave sharp angles/corners.
Those tend to cut the patch when loading. I have a brand new .36 cal Rice barrel with square cut rifling. It has never cut a patch and I've been using normal .022" denim and .350" balls. If
I had a .355" mould, THAT is all I would use. The DC mould I currently have, is an Ohaus (maybe RCBS) mould I purchased in 1978, I think.
Good condition .40 calibre barrels, if smoothly crowned, load easily with even .400" balls and the same .022" denim patching. A .395 is a piece of cake. These small diameter balls are more
easily formed into the rifling (if pure lead) than are larger balls like your .58 uses as there is less lead to move. They form/conform easily. Time and again, I have demonstrated in my .32, .36 and .40 cal. barrels of not having to use a short starter to start those balls. I place the stud on the starter or even a choked up rifle's rod, and pushing the ball into the muzzle. In they go, then down the bore with a couple pushes on the rod. I like to choke up on the rod and only push 10 to 15" at a time. Then. slightly lift the rod off the ball, and down another 10 to 15" until seated nicely and firmly on the powder. Slight compression of the powder is necessary to get close shot to shot velocities.
Taylor has used more Rice barrels than I have, however, no matter the make for me or him, our patches have never been cut by the lands.
If there is cutting going on, it is at the muzzle, usually unless the bore is very rough. I've never seen that in a new Rice barrel. What I have seen, is sharp cornered machine cuts
usually about 45 degrees. Rounding those corners will prevent cutting on loading.
The outside fraying is not caused by the bore. It is caused by the muzzle blast on a fairly loose weave that does not have a lock stitch, like denim. See the brown marks out on the
outer 1/8" of the cloth? That is scorching from gas-flame blow by.
The black is fouling/some heat-burning, the brown is scorching - blow by. Eliminate the scorching and cutting at the muzzle and you'd got it made. a sligthly thicker patch is warranted, imho.
Try smoothing the crown and as well, the denim you've been using in the .58.
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Mattress ticking looks about like pillow ticking but is significantly thicker. I measure it at around .016" to .017". MT should still load easily but the patches should hold up better - actually, yours don't look all that bad.
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I respectfully disagree about those patches looking "not all that bad". I would smooth the crown, try some thicker patches and a few different lubes. Those patches just look too frayed to be doing a good job. But after you smooth the crown they might be OK. Shooting a lot of different loads and keeping track of the results would tell you what you want and need to know.
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I have a 40 rice square grove bench rifle I shoot .20 canvas teflon .400 ball 65 fff it shoots great
1-3/8 dia
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I have .40 barrels from Rayl, Getz and Legacy. All have square bottom rifling and are crowned. .395 ball, .017-.020 Teflon and 70 grains FFFg and I can literally use the patches at least twice. Those being shown are used up plus.
Mark
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It's true some Rice barrels have rough spots. Mine did and it took about 100 shots before I couldn't feel them anymore. The more I shot it the smoother it got. I think your problem is with that patch material, it is either too thin or too loose a weave, maybe both. Either way I wouldn't waste my time shooting any more of it.
My goto material has always been premium pillow ticking measuring .0175-.0180". I've started shooting some material I got from easternmaine shooting supplies. This a tight woven material they call ticking, mine measures .015, shoots accurate and load easy.
I have done limited testing at this time but I do have one 10 shot 50 yard target. The light was bad and part way through I began aiming at a lower point. That is the reason there is 2 groups one above the other. Blame it on 66 year old eyes. My Rice barrel has always got it's easiest seating and most accurate loads with a lube like Original Lehigh Valley or this new Mr. Flintlocks lube. I don't use them for hunting but they are great on a target or plinking.
(https://image.ibb.co/i62QtL/10-SHOT-50-YARD-657x1024.jpg)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/DISCOUNTED-SHOOTING-PATCH-MATERIAL-PILLOW-TICKING-010-015/273192053059?hash=item3f9b83e943:m:m-zu7T7lSFStwGFYmt9Y5rg
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In your post you refer to the rifle as "shooting well", and "shooting very well". If'n it suits you...by all means Sir..just continue, and ENJOY.
If those patches came out of my rifle...also a 40 cal. Rice barrel I would consider them unacceptable and go to a more robust fabric.
Matter of fact, it occurs to me that I did just that awhile back. I had been using Wal-Mart blue stripe material with 40-55 gns of 3f Goex powder for 25-50 yd shooting and getting decent looking patches and awesome groups off a good steady rest.
For me, shooting "very well" off a rest is one-ragged-hole. Using 55 gns of powder, at 25 yds, that 40 cal Rice bbl I referred to above delivers a 5 shot group I can just about cover with a dime. At 50 yds...it increases to a "quarter size" hole.
When I moved to 100 yds, I increased the powder charge to 70 gns. Got lousy results using my standard blue stripe material. The patches looked like yours...possibly a little worse. I tested 10 oz and 12 oz denim purchased from Jo-Ann fabrics and found that change resolved the blown out patch issues.
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If you do not have at least 250 shots down the barrel --just keep shooting.
If the barrel has not been lapped it will take that many shots to smooth the edges of the rifling.
Then move sights and experiment. Learn the rifle it will make life easier.
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...different strokes for different folks. I love Rice barrels. in particular their radius cut rifling swamped barrels. No need to worry about doing your own crowning as theirs come crowned and polished. It does make loading much easier. After extensive testing with both .40 and .54 caliber Rice swamped barrels I found no difference in accuracy between pillow or mattress ticking in .010 vs .015. Yes the .015 patch retained it original condition better but the accuracy was exactly the same. Since the .010 loads so much easier I am going to stick with the .010. Again this is what works for me. If you have a different combination that works for you sick with that. No two rifles shoot exactly the same and no two shooters like the same combinations. I only use spit for my patches unless hunting then I use 100% pure Neatsfoot oil with between 5-10% clean beeswax added (but that is another topic we have hammered to death already).
The "Muskrat" has spoken.
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Troy It looks to me like a patch 2 or 3 thousands thicker is needed. Mac
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A visit to Rice Barrel Companies web site and they tell you:
Square Rifling patch thickness: .010-.012
Radius rifling patch thickness: .016-.018
Ball should be .010 undersized
Now I will admit they have forgot more about muzzle-loading than I will ever know but I find .016-.018 on either my .40 caliber or my .54 caliber (both with radius rifling) too tight of a fit.
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As Don mentioned above, I would go with a more ROBUST fabric.
Some folks equate thickness with strength. I do not follow that line of thinking. You can have thick, loose weave cloth that is useless. Take burlap as an extreme example. Thick, but loose weave and weak.
I like a very, very dense canvas weave. "The Minute-Men" sell super cotton canvas in various thicknesses. I only buy the plain stuff now and wet lube most of the time. Not inexpensive, but worth it.
The original posters patches I would call totally unacceptable. I would keep looking. I think pillow ticking was a traditional choice in the day, but in my opinion it is weak. We have much better choices today.
I do my best to recover and read all of my patches. If I can hold a patch up to the sun, and see sunlight through the fired patch anywhere, then I need to work harder to find better cloth.
Holes in a patch will allow for blow-by, greatly affecting velocity, accuracy, and fouling. A good tight-fitting robust, dense patch will seal your flat-bottom rifled barrel.
I hope this helps. God Bless, Marc
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As a follow-up to my above post, here is a snapshot of what I look for when I recover patches. I could not see sunlight through either of these two when I recovered them. "The Minute-Men" plain canvas patching wet-lubed with Hoppe's BP lube in this particular case. A Rice barrel. The ragged edges were a result of me not fully sharpening my patch knife before shooting. Cut at the muzzle obviously.
God Bless, Marc
(https://i.ibb.co/v3CdgMG/Patches.jpg) (https://ibb.co/T4D0pNS)
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I have a green mountain .40 36" x1 1/8" 1:48 square cut that I used for chunk shooting and now table matches. . 395 balls and art canvas (.023" ? ) w/60 gr. Goex 3f. Usually water only on the patch. Loading is never a problem (assuming a short starter) and it will load indefinitely without wiping although I found I get a bit of extra consistency out of it by wiping between shots...maybe just my routine :). Patches are perfect condition when they are picked up. Not a rice, but maybe helpful. I did use denim early on, but I've run into problems with various versions that should be the same not working the same when I buy a new bunch, and the art canvas is pretty consistent, but if you like and trust the denim you have it it should work fine!
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A visit to Rice Barrel Companies web site and they tell you:
Square Rifling patch thickness: .010-.012
Radius rifling patch thickness: .016-.018
Ball should be .010 undersized
Now I will admit they have forgot more about muzzle-loading than I will ever know but I find .016-.018 on either my .40 caliber or my .54 caliber (both with radius rifling) too tight of a fit.
Just use a little smaller ball size.
Dennis
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A visit to Rice Barrel Companies web site and they tell you:
Square Rifling patch thickness: .010-.012
Radius rifling patch thickness: .016-.018
Ball should be .010 undersized
Now I will admit they have forgot more about muzzle-loading than I will ever know but I find .016-.018 on either my .40 caliber or my .54 caliber (both with radius rifling) too tight of a fit.
Interesting. I have a Getz .50 with radiused rifling with a .500" bore. Unfortunately, the grooves are narrower than the lands and .016" deep, which is the same depth as Rice barrels I think.
I use a .495" pure led ball and a .022" canvas patch in that rifle, or the 10oz denim I also measure at .022" to .0225", both done with calipers. Loading is not difficult. My Rice .36 has a .360"
bore, square rifling, wider grooves than lands. I use a .350" ball and the same 10oz. or canvas patch. No trouble loading. Taylor has a radiused grooved .50 Rice on his Virginia rifle.
He loads a .495" ball and .020" patch. That patch will not allow more than 85gr. 2F be used, or it gets burned holes as it is too thin for heavier loads. However, with that load, it does just fine.
Here he is loading that rifle with that combination. Yes, he is using a 3/8" hickory range rod. When shooting the trail, he uses only the rifle's tapered hickory rod, no problem.
(https://oimg.photobucket.com/albums/v638/DarylS/58%20Kodiak%20Refinish/th_DSCN1983.mp4) (https://oimg.photobucket.com/albums/v638/DarylS/58%20Kodiak%20Refinish/DSCN1983.mp4)
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Fascinating info from all. Will know more after shooting this Tuesday. Gonna try the heavy denim. Don't have a caliper to use but wondering if these old TC patches would be worth a try?
(https://i.ibb.co/jhfNH2V/IMG-0478.jpg) (https://ibb.co/31d3kqf)
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A visit to Rice Barrel Companies web site and they tell you:
Square Rifling patch thickness: .010-.012
Radius rifling patch thickness: .016-.018
Ball should be .010 undersized
Now I will admit they have forgot more about muzzle-loading than I will ever know but I find .016-.018 on either my .40 caliber or my .54 caliber (both with radius rifling) too tight of a fit.
Interesting. I have a Getz .50 with radiused rifling with a .500" bore. Unfortunately, the grooves are narrower than the lands and .016" deep, which is the same depth as Rice barrels I think.
I use a .495" pure led ball and a .022" canvas patch in that rifle, or the 10oz denim I also measure at .022" to .0225", both done with calipers. Loading is not difficult. My Rice .36 has a .360"
bore, square rifling, wider grooves than lands. I use a .350" ball and the same 10oz. or canvas patch. No trouble loading. Taylor has a radiused grooved .50 Rice on his Virginia rifle.
He loads a .495" ball and .020" patch. That patch will not allow more than 85gr. 2F be used, or it gets burned holes as it is too thin for heavier loads. However, with that load, it does just fine.
Here he is loading that rifle with that combination. Yes, he is using a 3/8" hickory range rod. When shooting the trail, he uses only the rifle's tapered hickory rod, no problem.
(https://oimg.photobucket.com/albums/v638/DarylS/58%20Kodiak%20Refinish/th_DSCN1983.mp4) (https://oimg.photobucket.com/albums/v638/DarylS/58%20Kodiak%20Refinish/DSCN1983.mp4)
Daryl, all I've go to say is "Where go I get one of those short starters? You and Taylor should start selling them down here in the colonies.
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I am curious to why some of you are using so much powder in such a small bore rifle. A 0.395" round ball weight is 6 grams or 92 grains. I don't understand why some are using double or more the amount of powder necessary for such a light projectile. Have you considered the problems might all result from pushing the balls too hard? Currently I have three 40 caliber round ball rifles which all produce excellent accuracy using charges of 25-30 grains.
HK
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Troy go to JoAnns fabric in Vincennnes, go see the manager and ask her for their cotton drill 40. They might have it in stock . When I tried to buy it there, the clerk I talked to thought I was asking for a cordless drill. That's what she showed me. anyway if they don't have it in stock maybe she can order it for you and save you the shipping. When I get back there in October I will give you some. Those patches that you showed are unacceptable. 50 yards will show you that.
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I am curious to why some of you are using so much powder in such a small bore rifle. A 0.395" round ball weight is 6 grams or 92 grains. I don't understand why some are using double or more the amount of powder necessary for such a light projectile. Have you considered the problems might all result from pushing the balls too hard? Currently I have three 40 caliber round ball rifles which all produce excellent accuracy using charges of 25-30 grains.
HK
I can't answer for anybody but myself. My .40 was initially used for chunk shooting (60 yards) and 60 grains 3f goex worked most consistently over time and got the ball to the target faster. When I got a .50 for chunk (better wind tolerance), the .40 went on a diet and became a table match barrel, but I was so used to loading it the way I did, saw no reason to change.
I've often found that there are usually 2 good loads for any barrel, a light and a heavy, so I could try ~30, but I know the 60 grain load works fine for me when I'm on target, just not much urgency.
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I am curious to why some of you are using so much powder in such a small bore rifle. A 0.395" round ball weight is 6 grams or 92 grains. I don't understand why some are using double or more the amount of powder necessary for such a light projectile. Have you considered the problems might all result from pushing the balls too hard? Currently I have three 40 caliber round ball rifles which all produce excellent accuracy using charges of 25-30 grains.
HK
I'll try to answer that, Helmut.
In my .40, I used the amount of powder necessary to make 1/2" 5-shot groups at 50 yards off the bench. I shot/tested it a lot. It would not shoot a decent group at 50yards with the water/oil-lubed patch I used for target shooting, with less than 50gr. 3F GOEX. It was a lot more consistent with 55gr. to 60gr. 3F GOEX. When I switched to a slippery lube, LHValley lube to be specific, I had to increase the charge to 65gr. of 3F GOEX to get the same accuracy and point of impact. I also wanted to use 2F GOEX, in case I ran out of 3F and with the slippery lube, I got the same accuracy and point of impact, using 75.0gr. 2F GOEX. With those larger powder charges and the slippery lube, the velocity was 2,240fps. With 60gr. of 3F & water based lube, the speed was a mere 1,860fps. Note, that day I was using a light blue/darkblue/red and white striped mattress ticking I measured at .0235" with calipers. After washing, this material was very soft. I used it with .400" x .400" pure lead balls. There is no blow-by with that combination. Patches can be used for a minimum of 5 shots, if you want to pick them up and re-lube them.
If you look up the loads & load combinations used by the accuracy shooters - chunk, plank, bench-rest, you will find no .012" to .015" patches and 30gr. powder charges.
They use as much powder as needed to get the best accuracy from their rifles. I will state here, that the more powder used, the tighter the combination must be to prevent gas cutting and burning the patches. That destroys accuracy.
Much depends on what accuracy is good enough to satisfy you.
I have no rifles that will shoot well at 50 to 100yards, using light powder charges.
I use enough powder to give me what I feel is good accuracy and I appreciate the flatter trajectory given by heavier loads as well. On our trail walks, we have targets ranging from string and card cuts at a mere 15 yards or so, to gong targets at 109yards and all ranges in between.
The .69 is the only rifle I have, that I change the powder charge depending on the range I am shooting. For it I have 2 powder charges, 3 drams and 6 drams.
All my other guns use the same powder charge, no matter the range.
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Fascinating info from all. Will know more after shooting this Tuesday. Gonna try the heavy denim. Don't have a caliper to use but wondering if these old TC patches would be worth a try?
(https://i.ibb.co/jhfNH2V/IMG-0478.jpg) (https://ibb.co/31d3kqf)
Sweeny, if those patches fit well on a jag, I'd use them for cleaning only. In my opinion, they are very loose weave & I would not trust them to maintain their integrity.
Too- most of the packaged patches are not even remotely close to the thickness they state. Even OxYoke .018" patches I bought at one time, were a mere .015" by my
measurement, crushed measurement with my calipers.
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Long ago just as the few remaining dinosaurs gasped their last breath, I had a couple of rifles that shot well; nothing eye-popping, just well. Back then I used old t-shirts for patching. And while I had no complaints about accuracy the fired patches were usually scorched and many had daylight showing through. I started using a dry patch for an op wad and the fired patches started looking very good. But accuracy never improved significantly.
The fired patches shown in the OP looked a little better than my original patches did. I mostly use canvas for patches now - a couple of guns require something else - and they often are picked up after firing for study. Generally they are still white and show no, or very little, evidence of ever being fired. But the crowns on my guns are smoothed, even the Rice barrels. Loading is easy enough for me to use the wood ramrod with no problem.
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This is pocket drill 40 from Joanns (Guido, Vincennes did not have it but Bloomington did). Only got to shoot four quick shots off-hand because of deluge rain, 4 inches worth.
(https://i.ibb.co/TM5ctp9/20190807-170634.jpg) (https://ibb.co/QvG9Mzy)
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Hey Troy, the edges of the patching look frayed on one of your patches, but you cant see through them. Are you putting any lube on them? Spit is lube. I use bear oil on my patches. Before I got an ample supply of bear oil, I used mink oil from TOW, just as good.
Only 4 inches you must be in a drought.
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I did use bear oil. 60 grs 3F. Will know more tomorrow after shooting again.
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Those patches appear cut from the lands. The one on the left appears to have failed completely. The upper one as well.
If you don't want to do it this way ie: thumb with patch inside to catch grindings and stone, Dave C makes a tool to cut it.
(https://i.ibb.co/xMDynnJ/PB241921.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Cnzqjjh)
Emery or wet/dry paper crown
(https://i.ibb.co/58JH96Z/100-6518-zpsoyoluoi4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/T8N3Tky)
The muzzle below is cut with that tool.
(https://i.ibb.co/RCBcqKL/Dave-Crysalli-English-Rifle-11.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kh9XtTY)
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Smoothing the rifles crown, using a good lube, using strong thick-enough patch material and the right size ball for a good, snug fit is usually the cure for patch problems. This, assuming enough firing to smooth the bore, is about all I can think of for shooting success.
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60 grs 3F. .395 ball with pocket drill 40. bear grease/some were spit. 25 yds, bench. First group 5 shots. second group 4 shots. target squares= 1". How far left will this put me at 100 yds? how much should I slide front sight to the left?
(https://i.ibb.co/rspb3Xh/8-12.jpg) (https://ibb.co/YZdDXVS)
(https://i.ibb.co/3zFCJYH/group-8-12.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0t9GwV3)
(https://i.ibb.co/LnnL7zG/8-12patches.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hDDPzRq)
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X4, plus human error and any possible inaccuracy of the load.
You can move the rear sight a "tich" to the right, or front sight a "tich" to the left and re-shoot.
The actual distance can be worked out using math with the sight radius, etc, however I can move the sight
& re-shoot faster. In fact, I would already have done that.
As to the patches, appears to me, they are too thin & are still cutting on loading.
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I will do that next session. Forgot to mention I did smooth out the crown as described. Have yet to try the heavy denim. But I do enjoy the ease of loading with this material.
(https://i.ibb.co/51wcGLV/IMG-0486.jpg) (https://ibb.co/K5SybWH)
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Looks pretty good on the crown, bit wider at the top than necessary, the lands look pretty good. What looks like a 'corner' to the groove might be a bit sharp - might just be the photo angle.
I loaded .320" balls in this muzzle with a .023" patch without a short starter - just pressing (forming) the ball and patch into the bore with the choked up on, rifle's 5/16" hickory rod. The end of the rod is a threaded and cupped commercial rod-tip form Trackofthewolf.
As long as you are not getting fouling buildup & have to wipe, you are almost 'there'. The patches are holding up, but only for that one shot- - on the edge of failure. An increase in powder (higher pressure) will likely cause them to fail.
(https://i.ibb.co/FqThjQr/PB141918-zpsbd7b72c5.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5xH1fQ0)
This .69's muzzle shows some rod wear in the middle of the grooves as well as over beside one land, at 11:00 o'clock in the picture. Currently, this does not seem to hurt the accuracy.
There have been 4 or 5 thousand shots through this rifle & mostly with .030"(12oz) patches and .682" balls.
(https://i.ibb.co/GM0dtrN/PB241925.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bvP62GD)