AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: Smokey Plainsman on August 14, 2019, 02:09:13 AM
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Guys, I just received my rifle back from a builder (I will not name them as that is a sure-fire way to get your thread locked here) for some problems. It had the wrong barrel on it, and the nosecap was badly marred out of the package. Well today I get it back and those issues are fixed. But I noticed the cock appears to be bending at its forward most part of travel. This is what it looks like all the way down, frozen open, in the “fired” position:
(https://i.postimg.cc/zf32T2w6/66-F3-D925-52-A4-4862-BC19-3-F86-F1629-CB6.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/q79wyJv6/7-C005-AFF-875-D-42-E6-A4-F1-EBEEDBCDA04-C.jpg)
At half or full cock, the cock is not bend. But it “hitches” and sort of bounces off the side of the stock and bends like this when fired. Is this a normal condition guys? Is the cock meant to bend like this and bounce of the stock? I can get it to sort of hold on the side of the stock before half cock, and it slips off the wood.
Should I contact the builder yet again guys? Need input. Thanks in advance!
-Smokey
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It might be bent, but from the first photo, it appears as though the cock is not fully seated, or square, on the tumbler. At least that’s what it looks like to me...
Ed
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Yes, you should contact the builder. The stock should have a relief filed in at the point where it is now contacting with the cock.
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That screw sticking out ain't helping matters. That could be interfering as well....even if it's not...I can't stand screws sticking out of lock plates like that lol
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EDIT: Okay I took the lock off, and actually what’s happening is the cock is rubbing on the lock plate, it wasn’t the stock and there is a relief in the wood. It’s already worn away the Browning where it contacts. This is a Jim Chambers Late Ketland lock. Should I contact Jim or send the whole thing back to the builder who shall not be named? I’d rather just send the lock in as it’s a pain to have to box up this rifle yet again and send it back.
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Rubbing on the lock plate?I would think that such a lock would not be sent from Jim Chambers
and wonder if the gun maker did something to it.
Bob Roller
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Show us where it's hitting the lock plate????
I agree with Ed...it looks like it's not fully seated..or not squarely seated...pretty easy fix if that's the issue.
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Here’s what’s going on:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Y23W6rXG/DD92-E69-A-6725-4-E59-8-A1-A-5-AD51-C3-A298-C.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/fR3SQxMm/2956-F9-D0-B0-E3-433-B-B401-F2-AC9-CF95-D8-A.jpg)
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Still looks to me like the cock is not fully seated on the tumbler, thus not square to the lock plate.
Ed
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I agree with Ed. Either there is some flash from the cock casting hanging it up or maybe the square stem on the tumbler shaft is not machined correctly. Either way, that cock should be sitting further down the tumbler shaft and sitting square. I also agree with Mauser, those sear & sear spring screws should be flush with the plate. Both conditions are nothing that a bit of filing couldn't take care of, but that should have been done by the builder. As a builder I would accept a lock with those conditions and correct them(after grumbling a bit), as a customer I would not.
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It's supposed to hit the lock plate... but only on its top surface. I doubt if it's bent. It appears to me that maybe the cock isn't tightened/pulled down square like Ed said, which is allowing it to sit crooked on the stem of the tumbler. Sitting crooked allows it to miss it's contact surface on the top of the lock plate when lowered... and then travel too far, rubbing on the side of the lock plate.
I'd remove the cock screw, cock, check the mounting surfaces, and try to reinstall it straight and square.
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I agree with whats said about the hammer not being seated and the sear spring screw being too long (probably the wrong screw in the wrong hole)you can see where the hammer has been hitting the screw.
DO NOT attempt to seat the hammer by tightening the hammer screw, you will shear it off and create a world of problems.
This is not a Chambers problem but a problem created by whoever took apart and re assembled the lock.
Kevin
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Looks like your builder did not install the cock squarely on the tumbler when he reassembled the lock. You can remove the cock yourself and reinstall it making sure it goes on the tumbler squarely. If you don't feel comfortable doing this yourself just send it back to me along with return postage, and I'll be glad to install it correctly at no charge.
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You really need an experienced builder to examine the rifle. There’s only so much we can guess from pictures.
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Alright guys... I just emailed the builder (it’s a very well known company...) expressing my displeasure at the lack of attention to detail with this rifle, which I spent over $1700 on.
As delivered the rifle had:
-The wrong barrel. I paid and was charged for a round bottom a Rice barrel and the gun showed up with square rifling... thankfully now fixed, but with noticeable gaps behind the breechplug were the new barrel was shoehorned into place.
-The nosecap was badly marred or improperly finished right out of the box. Now fixed.
-the inletting around the lockplate and sideplate were amateurish at best. The builder chose not to do anything about this when I sent it back the first time.
-The lock issues as mentioned in this thread. I’m waiting for their response.
Overall fit and finish if the The quality or lack thereof from this very well known builder are extremely disappointing. I feel hopeless and absolutely disenfranchised from this hobby. My first attempt at commissioning a builder went horribly wrong, and this second attempt from what I thought was a well thought of outfit is not going well at all.
I’m sure to receive many responses saying that it’s my fault or whatever. At this point I just do not care. I’m ready to demand a refund and get out of this sport for good.
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I understand how you feel. None of the things you mentioned are your fault, and you are right to expect a good quality rifle for $1700 in my opinion. I may not expect it to be adorned with beautiful, or any, carving and engraving, but the rifle should be what you ordered, and mechanics and fit and finish should be very good to excellent.
I wouldn't let it cause me to give up on the sport though. I've had a lot of fun over the last 30 years with a $140 T/C Hawken ;)
I hope it works out well for you.
By the way, did you try to remove the cock and reinstall it straight? It might be an easy fix.
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-The lock issues as mentioned in this thread. I’m waiting for their response.
If that doesn't work out, Jim Chambers himself just offered to fix it for you for free, as long as you pay for the shipping. Also, you could try fixing it yourself - at some point you will want to disassemble the lock for cleaning or something anyway, so learning how to get the cock on and off now wouldn't be a bad idea.
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Looks to me like possibly the lock bolt screw may have been a tad too long and forced the cock to the right side near the end of its travel (?)
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I got a lock from L&R that had the same problem. The tumbler shaft wasn't ground off deeply enough for the cock to pull down into the right position and the cock was just nicking the cock stop on the top of the lock plate. L&R did a lousy job fixing the problem on their first attempt so I fixed it myself.
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Hi,
That flint cock is not seated squarely on the tumbler and only a small portion of the shoulder is resting as it should on the lock plate bolster causing the wear. What I suspect happened is the maker removed the flint cock when the lock was at rest. Without the flint cock arresting the action of the lock, the tumbler turned slightly further forward. Then when replacing the flint cock, the maker failed to bring the lock back to half cock before seating it on the tumbler. As a result, the shoulder of the cock does not ride over the edge of the lock plate forcing it to be cocked at an angle. Nothing like that should ever leave the shop of a responsible maker. FYI, when removing a flint cock without disassembling the rest of the lock, always bring the flint cock back to half cock first. In fact, it is wise to always bring a flintlock back to half cock whenever removing it from the lock mortice.
dave
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Smokey, do you know any other experienced flint shooters with some building experience? Things like this flint cock being cocked on the tumbler axle are pretty easily diagnosed in hand and easily remedied.
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I would put the lock back into the rifle and look into what Mikeyfirelock said, "Looks to me like possibly the lock bolt screw may have been a tad too long and forced the cock to the right side near the end of its travel."
We can't see it in the photos, but if the rear lock mounting bolt sticks out too far, the cock can hit it. You won't see whether or not they're making contact until you put the lock back in the gun.
If this is indeed the case, there will be scrape marks on the inside surface of the cock where it's rubbing the end of that bolt.
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...meaning, the bolt that is threaded into this hole.
(https://i.ibb.co/0h69JrF/2956-F9-D0-B0-E3-433-B-B401-F2-AC9-CF95-D8-A.jpg) (https://ibb.co/HnbPgqx)
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I think Rich asked a good question. Have you ever taken apart a lock? Do you have the special tools? If not, find someone who knows what they are doing or send it to Chambers. You want to be extremely confident in your lock or you’ll get frustrated when you have a misfire and it will drive you completely bonkers.
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Thank you, friends. Going to speak with the head of the outfit on Monday to discuss my dismay at the quality control from this shop. Thanks to all for offering help and assistance, it is much appreciated. Will update Monday.
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Sounds like a "goat-rope". Demand a refund. Send it back.
Fitting a cock to a tumber is a simple task.
I have observed that sometimes a "well known maker" continues to build after his prime. IF that is the case you may be better off walking away. He may no longer have the skills necessary to do it right.
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I very well may request a refund at this point in time. But I wouldn’t even begin to know where to put the money towards to ensure a properly built rifle. I’ve been steered wrong twice thus far. I may well just get a Pedersoli or Traditions gun and be done with it all. At least I can easily return an Italian or Spanish replica to many black powder online stores if their are issues. At this point, my old Lyman GPR, a budget Italian made gun, has shown to be better built with better quality control than the two American “traditional” builders that people insisted would be a good choice for me.
I’m just disgusted with the American shop who built my rifle in question. Sadly, they seem to be following the NEW American work trend:
“Pump as many out the door as fast as possible using lackluster components and tell the owner to take pride in your lousy product, because it’s was made in AMERICA!”
It’s just... a shame. :(
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SEND the lock to the lock maker as you are making a mountain out of a mole hill. All the lock makers I deal with are good guys and will take care of you.
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Smokey Plainsmen: Man I feel your pain! *I know exactly where you are coming from. That is precisely why I belong to the "American Custom Gunmaker's Guild" -high-end workmanship is their main criteria for membership. Many years ago my shop was constantly being flooded with muzzle loaders that were made by people that had NO business being called gunmakers. Finally I instructed all my clients to send the guns back to the original makers. Then I joined the ACGG - problem solved! Any gun made by someone who has ACGG credentials will be made with the highest quality that can be found in the USA! Hugh Toenjes
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Smokey, I think Blacksmoke has solved your problem. Acgg, this is where you will find what you need.
Bob
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Hi,
Smokey, some people steered you toward the maker you chose and others like me tried to discourage that choice. The problem with lax quality control is that some folks will get a good product and swear by it while others get the same thing and it is a lemon, and then it becomes the "he said this and that guy says that" kind of unproductive debate.
dave
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Thanks, gang. I spoke with the builder, who’s name is on the barrel from this very popular shop, and he recommended I try and tighten the hammer screw. This did nothing. I let him know forum members here remarked the lock has an issue, but he said this was a great place for opinions. ::) Regardless, I am sending the lock back to him to have it checked out. Will report what happens next on this wacky journey. Thanks all.
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Those lock bolts are too long and will have to be filed down to the surface of your lock plate. Send the builder or include a picture of the installed lock with the extended lock bolts.
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"I very well may request a refund at this point in time. But I wouldn’t even begin to know where to put the money towards to ensure a properly built rifle. "
IF the style appeals to you get a Kibler kit. IF you can not do the work yourself it should not be difficult to find a competent person to assemble it for you, probably right here.
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Smokey Plainsman,
Between this forum and the other since June 19th you have had over 150 posts dealing with this gun companies problem and an offer from the lock mfg to correct your lock (for free) yet you you are still quoting bad info given you by the gun sales company.
I think you should do something...or not.
Kevin
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Well thanks, all. But frankly, Jim Chambers did not assemble the lock incorrectly.
The builder(s) did.
At this point, all I’ve got is time. And with it, we shall see if the builder comes around and finally fixes what they hath wrought. I believe it should be made “there” problem, and not “Jim’s problem”, as it were.
If not, well, the world shall know...
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Well thanks, all. But frankly, Jim Chambers did not assemble the lock incorrectly. The builder(s) did.
Right! So, what makes you think the builder has suddenly learned the correct way to assemble a lock?
..... he recommended I try and tighten the hammer screw.
Smokey,
The advice the builder gave you, quoted above, is bad advice. You are lucky you didn't break the hammer screw. The correct way to properly seat the hammer is to remove the hammer screw, do what is needed to seat the hammer, then reinstall the screw.
This builder you are dealing with has had, what, 2 or 3 chances to fix your gun. Cut your losses. Send your lock to someone who knows what they are doing. Jim Chambers has already offered.
-Ron
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Regardless of whether you send the lock away, or even if you'd send the whole gun back to be looked at, when it comes back, and then is assembled, YOU need to make sure that the cock isn't hitting on a screw that sticks through the lock plate too far. Either the mounting screw coming in from the far side of the gun, or even the bridle screw could hit it, causing it to be crooked like that.
It wouldn't make much sense to send the lock away, have the cock mounted good and square, then mount the lock on the gun again with a bolt that sticks out too far and hits the cock.
If you haven't sent it away yet, I'd remove the cock now, and look underneath. Any rub marks on the backside of the cock? How far does the bridle screw stick out? Then put the lock back in the gun and tighten the bolts, still with the cock removed, and see how far the mounting bolt sticks out.
Then if all was well, you could decide whether to send the lock away to have the cock squarely mounted or do it yourself.
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I think you should do something...or not.
or as my Pa used to say "$#*& or get off the pot"
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You really need an experienced builder to examine the rifle. There’s only so much we can guess from pictures.
Exactly. Could be the lock has a tumbler hole drilled out of plumb. Or a couple of other things.
There is also a difference between "gun builder" and "assembler".
Dan
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Well thanks, all. But frankly, Jim Chambers did not assemble the lock incorrectly.
The builder(s) did.
At this point, all I’ve got is time. And with it, we shall see if the builder comes around and finally fixes what they hath wrought. I believe it should be made “there” problem, and not “Jim’s problem”, as it were.
If not, well, the world shall know...
Send it to someone who knows what they are doing, Jim Chambers has offered. For one thing this may not be the only issue and with the lock there are SAFETY issues involved. I learned this, very nearly the hard way, when I was 19. Thats 50 years ago now >:( The lock needs to be looked at to make sure the fly is set up right and the sear engages the notches properly.
Dan
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(https://i.ibb.co/4d1FpjZ/68-C0722-B-5700-4668-A356-917010-D801-B2.gif) (https://imgbb.com/)
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You should belong to a shooting club, as almost every club has 2 or 3 guys in it that can help, ours does. And also clubs and organizations make all these good things happen, shows,shoots reenactments and ect.
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I very well may request a refund at this point in time. But I wouldn’t even begin to know where to put the money towards to ensure a properly built rifle. I’ve been steered wrong twice thus far. I may well just get a Pedersoli or Traditions gun and be done with it all. At least I can easily return an Italian or Spanish replica to many black powder online stores if their are issues. At this point, my old Lyman GPR, a budget Italian made gun, has shown to be better built with better quality control than the two American “traditional” builders that people insisted would be a good choice for me.
I’m just disgusted with the American shop who built my rifle in question. Sadly, they seem to be following the NEW American work trend:
“Pump as many out the door as fast as possible using lackluster components and tell the owner to take pride in your lousy product, because it’s was made in AMERICA!”
It’s just... a shame. :(
Alrighty then. When I think "lackluster components", I know Rice barrels and Chambers locks immediately come to mind ::). Sorta like "lousy product" summing up the work of American rifle builders. I reckon all the builders on this forum ought to just hightail it to Italy and Spain, where they might learn a thing or two, and quit making folks feel "hopeless", "disenfranchised", and "disgusted". If they could also quit making folks talk like biblical figures, that hath its own reward, verily I say unto thee.
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Regardless of whether you send the lock away, or even if you'd send the whole gun back to be looked at, when it comes back, and then is assembled, YOU need to make sure that the cock isn't hitting on a screw that sticks through the lock plate too far...
Mr. Plainsman, do you follow this? You have to fix or have someone fix the lock mounting screws. You probably didn't send those with the lock and even if you did, there's no way to accurately adjust their length without the gun in hand.
Even those perfectly trimmed could become too long if overtightened repeatedly-or over the years or normal use. These things the shooter must know and cannot be put off to a vendor or maker.
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Regardless of whether you send the lock away, or even if you'd send the whole gun back to be looked at, when it comes back, and then is assembled, YOU need to make sure that the cock isn't hitting on a screw that sticks through the lock plate too far...
Mr. Plainsman, do you follow this? You have to fix or have someone fix the lock mounting screws. You probably didn't send those with the lock and even if you did, there's no way to accurately adjust their length without the gun in hand.
Even those perfectly trimmed could become too long if overtightened repeatedly-or over the years or normal use. These things the shooter must know and cannot be put off to a vendor or maker.
Or screwed into the wrong hole..... over 200 post now on this same topic on the TMLF ...
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I will add that in muzzleloading, it is helpful to have a positive attitude, and an inquisitive mind towards gunsmithing.
These are not modern production cartridge guns, so there will always need to be tinkering, adjusting, and interactive work. To me, that is one of the charms and joys of muzzleloading. Personal satisfaction after you get it solved.
The person who got me into muzzleloading said this when I asked why there were no "middle priced" muzzleloaders. He said, "Once past inexpensive production guns and kits, you get into hand labor. An experienced gun maker might work a month on a longrifle. Say, 160 hours. Since they are not unskilled, minimum wage workers, what should they be paid? $20 an hour? Well, that's $3,200.00 in labor. That is without parts. $200 for a barrel, $200 for a lock, $200 for curly maple, $200 for the rest. Right there you are at $4,000.00. So what do you want to scrimp on? If paid minimum wage, you are still into a $2,400.00 gun. That is why decent muzzleloaders cost money." Is $2,400 to $4,000 a lot of money for a gun? You betcha. But once you look into the economics, you'll see why the price is what it is. No gunmaker is getting rich off of doing this, even ones with a great reputation. They are doing it because they love it.
Just thought I'd share that.
God Bless, Marc
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Marc: I for one appreciate your insight. Thankfully, it has been a rare thing for a person to complain about what I need to build a rifle. The most significant complaint was from a doctor who should have known better. Sometimes people don't take you seriously if you work out of your basement shop.
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Taylor, your mention of a doctor reminded me of a conversation I once had with one. (No disrespect meant to the medical profession here, some of my best friends and family are in it) He asked a price to build a rifle on the order of one I had on display. I gave him what I considered a fair price. He asked me how much I charged per hour that was like a lot of money. I responded that I had never tracked the hours I spent on a gun I worked in my spare time and that if I had I would probably never take another order. He had already let me know that he was a doctor, so I asked how much he charged per hour for his work. He informed me that he had gone to school for years studying his craft and that was why he could command so much. I told him I had spent most of my life studying the many crafts that went into building the rifle he was holding. He said he had never thought of it that way. Many people need to see letters behind your name to be able to give credit to your achievements.
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Before I retired I managed an architectural glazing business. I was stiffed three times in 25 years. Once by a doctor, once by a lawyer and once by our current commander in chief.
They all could afford the work, they all agreed to the quoted price, they all decided they did not have to pay without any warning or reason given.
Kevin
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If you make x dollars per hour at a full time job, your spare time is worth at least 1 1/2x, is it not? And that is not to compensate you for your considerable skill, time in learning the trade, investment in tools, etc. Don't sell yourselves short, folks.
In my case, the doctor asked me if I "could absorb the tax", which totaled 13%. In other words, he wanted me to pay the tax on a purchase he had made. ...more crust than a pie factory.
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Taylor, your mention of a doctor reminded me of a conversation I once had with one. (No disrespect meant to the medical profession here, some of my best friends and family are in it) He asked a price to build a rifle on the order of one I had on display. I gave him what I considered a fair price. He asked me how much I charged per hour that was like a lot of money. I responded that I had never tracked the hours I spent on a gun I worked in my spare time and that if I had I would probably never take another order. He had already let me know that he was a doctor, so I asked how much he charged per hour for his work. He informed me that he had gone to school for years studying his craft and that was why he could command so much. I told him I had spent most of my life studying the many crafts that went into building the rifle he was holding. He said he had never thought of it that way. Many people need to see letters behind your name to be able to give credit to your achievements.
That's a good job of educating your potential customer. Some will understand and make good clients, some already know everything (as you might have noticed). They can be difficult.
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Guys, the lock is back.
It’s fixed!! Everything seems to now be functioning normally. I am now noticing that if I tighten the sideplate screw too much, the set triggers turn wonky so I might need to address that, but as is it seems all is well.
Seems no screws are interfering with the cock and its traversment. Overall, I’m relieved and am so happy to FINALLY get the rifle to the range. The gun might need a bit more tweaking and adjustment, but as is, I’ve got the product I originally ordered and despite the issues, it seems to be all good. Looking forward to burning smoke with this rifle.
Thanks all for the support, take care!!
-Smokey