AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: WadePatton on August 15, 2019, 12:34:28 AM
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Because the discussion of ROT for rifled pistols, I was wondering about how much accuracy one gives up at pistol ranges with no rifling atall. Search finding nothing much to go on, here's a new thread.
Assuming a pair of pistols made identical in all aspects but for rifling, including sights. Also assuming a proper rate of twist for the rifled bbl and appropriate load development for both of them.
What's the group size difference a good shooter might expect to see at 50 yards, rested in good conditions of weather and light? Is that range reasonable for a smooth pistol?
Smoothie sub-question: Could a bare-ball loading (powder, ball, wadding) be expected to perform at this range?
Thanks, I get that the smoothbore gives options the rifle does not, but I know there's an accuracy tradeoff. I don't know if I'll ever have a smooth long gun, but am twisting the idea around of a short one.
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Talking to Bobby Hoyt once....he said if I think I can shoot better with it rifled, send it back to him and he will rifle it....and he didn't seem to expect for me to send it back to be rifled.
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I’ve never felt the need to shoot my smoothbore .50 flintlock pistol further than about 10-12 yards maximum. I mean, its purpose (in my view) was to clear a doorway.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img921/8973/j5KwvG.jpg)
Ez
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I agree if you want to do a side by side why shoot at rifle distance? I would set up the test at no more than 35 yards but realistically 25 would be a better test. These pistols either smooth bore or rifles were fore close action defense 10 - 12 yards or closer. If you are going to shoot much beyond that the rifled pistol will win hands down. Barrel length plays a big part just got my new pistol and it has a 13-in Rice swamped barrel with radius cut rifling and a crowned muzzle. and is a tack driver at close range.
(https://i.ibb.co/sqzF964/Picture-12.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vkRJ4QW)
(https://i.ibb.co/0CQkHCv/Picture-13.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Bywm0yF)
(https://i.ibb.co/YtYMT03/Pistol-target.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fCB5GD2)
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Wade,
I once built a North Star West 20 gauge Trade pistol smoothbore and shimmed up the tang bolt with washers to get the right elevation to substitute for a rear sight.
Out to 20 yds, I don't think I've ever owned a black powder pistol that would out shoot it. I'll go to my grave regretting that I sold it. :o >:( :'(
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If we look at what the Olympic winners can do with a smooth-bored pistol, it is usually far ahead of what most can do with a rifled arm.
Some groups are just one ragged hole.
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Sure, reset the yardage to "pistol yardages" I'm still thinking of my target days with other guns.
Okay then, I see no need for rifling in my pistols. Plus I'll put in the range time to sort out what makes it tick. They would be for pistol-ranges indeed, and I want the shot option.
These copperheads are hissin' me off. :P
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Wade, when it comes to pistols the first question one needs to ask is "what is the intended purpose".
If you want to shoot NMLRA competition, you will be shooting out to 50 yards with one hand holding the pistol.
If all you want it for is woodswalk or primitive competition, the local clubs set the rules.
If you just want it for a backup gun for hunting. your state laws will dictate the pistol parameters.
I know there are smoothbore pistol matches in NMLRA competition, and International matches, but I am totally ignorant of the results achieved with such weapons.
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Wade,
Re Copperheads;
Herschel House told me they won't kill you, but they Will make you feel like you wished you'd died if you get bit!
Best,
R.
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Buck and ball loads can be amazingly effective, but for finishing off game, a large bore pistol would be my choice.
Something like this one, rather plain, but effective:
"Liege" 12 bore
(https://i.ibb.co/8jvgVsN/Liege-Double-Pistol-1.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://i.ibb.co/0tRNncJ/Liege-Double-Pistol-2.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
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Daryl: seriously cool double barrel pistol.
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At 25 yards I used to be able to keep 5 shot groups in 2" with this .50. Barrel is 9". Nowadays I have trouble seeing anything at 25 yards.
(https://image.ibb.co/fwFkrn/PICT0369-1-zps544bf87a.jpg)
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Wade,
Re Copperheads;
Herschel House told me they won't kill you, but they Will make you feel like you wished you'd died if you get bit!
Best,
R.
My old pup has been bitten thrice in the last year and a half-I've suffered through his pain each time. I'm cleaning things UP around here and any excuse for another sidearm seems legit. If a blasted viper gets blasted for crowding my space, then that's just what happens.
As to competition--I'm not worried about any rules, I can't find anyone to shoot competition locally and I'm not driving 4,9,12 hours to get to a shoot, every single shoot (at this point anyway).
My first sidelocked sidearm will be a toting gun, not a target piece.
But I'll be quite pleased to out-score rifled bbl friends and competitors when the opportunity arises, any chance I get.
;D
if I'm lucky.
Thanks for the feedback fellas. I got a lot of other guns to finish first. But you well know the parts collecting process can span some years-if you're careful how you get them (spend wise).
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At 25 yards I used to be able to keep 5 shot groups in 2" with this .50. Barrel is 9" ...
Make your spotting target big like beach ball. Move your score target to where the balls fall. Easy, but much plinkability!
Is your 9" bbl a smoothie? Thanks.
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Also thanks fellas for sharing all your fine pistols with us.
I'm not set on a style just yet, but I know I tend towards a short bbl. In my early pistol years I went for super long bbls, but then learned how unhandy they tend to be, and that I could shoot quite well enough with a lot less bbl. So I'm thinking 6-8" will fill my bill-minimum 20 bore.
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Here is something to consider before dismissing the effectiveness of rifling over a smoothbore in a pistol used at short range . Someone came up with the idea of scratch rifling in dueling pistols because it offers an advantage. I've tried it and it works .
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Here is something to consider before dismissing the effectiveness of rifling over a smoothbore in a pistol used at short range . Someone came up with the idea of scratch rifling in dueling pistols because it offers an advantage. I've tried it and it works .
It is my hope that the pit vipers and other vermin are not supplied with pistols!
I get that. But also that -any- sort of mental advantage might help those who entered into the contest of a duel.
Also, the blunderbuss threads got me thinking on a hand cannon (because a blunderbuss in the belt wouldn't work on my sized frame). The current plan is to build the pistol smooth and see exactly how accurate I can make it. Then, if I need more accuracy and am willing to give up shot, then I can make a rifled one. If it proves no more accurate, I'll sell it and make something else. Easy enough huh? (ambitious I am) ;D
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I read that the .54cal. US Martial pistols & English Dueling pistols were popular when 'running' buffalo(from horseback). A brace (2) of pistols, held in shoulder holsters (the horses shoulders) at the front of the saddle, were "good for 2 buffaloes".
After the civil war, .44 calibre revolvers were found to be even better. A model 1860 or 1847Walker was "good for 6 buffaloes".
This information from Firearms of the American West.
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Personally I got no need of a short or long gun to have a smoothbore!!
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At 25 yards I used to be able to keep 5 shot groups in 2" with this .50. Barrel is 9" ...
Make your spotting target big like beach ball. Move your score target to where the balls fall. Easy, but much plinkability!
Is your 9" bbl a smoothie? Thanks.
It is rifled which (I think) gives it the accuracy. Ideally a .45, smooth or rifled, with a 5"-6" barrel would be better. I only have to be able to hit a deer's brain from a foot away, is all. The pistol is a bit bulky for me.
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Sharpsman: I am with you 100% on this one.
FACT: other than quicker reloading there is nothing a smooth bore can do that a rifled barrel can't do better! Disagree with this? Ask the "red coats" about this just after The Battle of New Orleans in 1812.
The "Muskrat" has spoken!
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First off. Is the shooter a good shot with a pistol?
Me? I have no use for a SB pistol or SB long gun for that matter.
Also a longer barrel (sight radius) will make it easier to hit things. Short barrels are OK but harder to shoot well.
This is a 50 yard group with a rifled 50 cal GM barrel shot using my left eye ::). I think the 22 twist is too fast and would rather have 48" for pistols or rifles in 50 cal and even 54.
Also note that a 66 or 70" twist 54 barrel 9" long will shoot into 2" at 25 yards but may take a good charge of powder to shoot well and will still shoot bird shot pretty well at short ranges, 10-15 yards, if enough shot is put in. I have killed rattle snakes with my rifle's ramrod I sure as heck am not going to shoot one when I am hunting.
Grouse I can shoot with a round ball, or used to, I think Montana changed the law. I guess the bird hunters did not consider shooting grouse with a pistol sporting. But I don't shoot things for "sport".
So far as self-defense and clearing doorways? I have better things for this.
(https://i.ibb.co/qy3TLrp/KWAFWIA8-TUSv3r-DVp-J4-G-A-thumb-a9db.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tmTVwJD)
Dan
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Thanks Dan.
Yes the shooter is good with a short gun. That's the competition he got the most trophies in back when he had folks to compete with within an hour of home. Hardly ever hits the tomato vine when picking off hornworms with the rimfire. :o ;D
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Thanks Dan.
Yes the shooter is good with a short gun. That's the competition he got the most trophies in back when he had folks to compete with within an hour of home. Hardly ever hits the tomato vine when picking off hornworms with the rimfire. :o ;D
Then why bother with a smoothbore?
Sadly the lack of shooters is afflicting all the more traditional disciplines as well as some newer ones like BPCR Silhouette. I shoot MLs and when I can Service Rifle, but the closest matches are 125+- miles. It used to attract a lot of people in places like Butte, it's so low some matches are cancelled in MT. This is not good for shooting sports in general. Though we have a lot of shooters, at least with brass suppository stuff, people don't like to compete it seems. So more history dies....
Shooting flintlock rifle and pistol Sunday, but we seldom get more than 6-8 shooters.... Low population (Montana is 4th largest state with about 1 million population) we only have one young ML shooter. Membership dues will no longer pay for the insurance. :'(
I should be greasing patches right now (or hauling garbage ;D) so I better sign off....
Excuse the brass suppository mentions but the decline is endemic, its not just ML shoots.
I wish I knew a way to turn this around.
Dan
(https://i.ibb.co/SwdwNrW/WVIh1klt-Tae2i-Jkff6thb-A-thumb-aa39.jpg) (https://ibb.co/MkGkn6W)
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Gotta start them young. We have a very healthy young shooter bunch show up at Hefley every year, but they are from all around B.C.
and Washington. Locally, we have no juniors I am aware of now, except for one family & they shoot rarely. I think they are still working
on the centre fielder for their family baseball team. ;)
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Wade here is a 62/20 ga smoothbore pistol that Joe Schell built for me a few yrs back. Its light an stuffs in my belt without any problems what so ever. Its shore nuff deadly snake medicine at short range when loaded with #4s. It has killed the one an only snake it has fired at. A copper head which was laying beside a good deer trail trying to blend in an be sneaky. He died a good death. Its not a fancy pistol by any means but it will git er done
(https://preview.ibb.co/hUehpa/014.jpg) (https://ibb.co/n6QNpa)
(https://preview.ibb.co/hdQoUa/012.jpg) (https://ibb.co/iorTUa)
(https://preview.ibb.co/dUbv9a/008.jpg) (https://ibb.co/e7Bj2v)
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I really like the pistol, Wattle. That knife ain't shabby, either!
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Personally I got no need of a short or long gun to have a smoothbore!!
Pffft, rifling is just a passing fad... 8)
Ez
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If it ain't got rifling.....I don't need it! :) :-\
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Sadly the lack of shooters is afflicting all the more traditional disciplines as well as some newer ones like BPCR Silhouette. I shoot MLs and when I can Service Rifle, but the closest matches are 125+- miles. It used to attract a lot of people in places like Butte, it's so low some matches are cancelled in MT. This is not good for shooting sports in general. Though we have a lot of shooters, at least with brass suppository stuff, people don't like to compete it seems. So more history dies....
Shooting flintlock rifle and pistol Sunday, but we seldom get more than 6-8 shooters.... Low population (Montana is 4th largest state with about 1 million population) we only have one young ML shooter. Membership dues will no longer pay for the insurance. :'(
I should be greasing patches right now (or hauling garbage ;D) so I better sign off....
Excuse the brass suppository mentions but the decline is endemic, its not just ML shoots.
I wish I knew a way to turn this around.
Dan
4H
Last month I spoke at a very small but growing 4H group to introduce them to ML. I took a Whitworth, my Plains Rifle, and my half finished flintlock. They very much enjoyed the explanation of the differences as rifles evolved from a flintlock round ball rifle, to a caplock, to the elongated bullet target rifle.
I used a bag of marshmallows to demonstrate obturation, and they understood. By the end of the afternoon I had them all repeating "obturation" as the word of the day and reciting "Powder Patch Ball" faithfully.
I had two takers for shooting the Whitworth and six takers for shooting the Plains Rifle. Sitting at Dairy Queen afterward, the 4H leader was getting several text messages from the parents saying their kids thought it was the best demonstration they had that year. They are interested in competition, and now, maybe, traditional ML.
If you want new and younger shooters, you have to go get them.
DAve
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yellowhousejake ,thank you for what you are doing we need more like you.
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Excellent job Dave, spread the joy. Everyone isn't cut out to teach, but sounds like you've got a gift. Traditionalists everywhere thank you. I'll bet less than 3 of 10 modern shooters understand obturation.
That's about what I "need" Wattle. It's not a "front burner" thing though, I am collecting ideas. Saw some bronze bbl'd stuff I like too. thanks.
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Back in June at the Nationals, I was shooting alongside Snapper and Rick Weber. We had folks just watching us. If you walk up and put lead in their hand and ask them to give it a try, it is certain they will not say no. I had two people try my rifle and both hit steel. Sometimes, the invite is all that is needed to turn a spark into a flame.
We need to DO more to promote our sport.
DAve
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Interesting thread Wade. And, some very nice pistols, guys...thanks for sharing. My only experience with flintlock pistols has been with rifled barrels, and just plinking in the backyard, no competitions. I enjoy building them, so might try a smoothie next...heck, I have access to a complete machine shop, might just roll my own barrel...I’d imagine a shot loaded .50 would be pretty good snake medicine.
Here’s one from a couple years ago. This one is a rifled 10” swamped .50 (Rayl) and small Siler.
Greg
(https://i.ibb.co/ZBLx4jg/C7937-A42-3-A12-4599-A16-A-3-B8199-C6-EBDD.jpg) (https://ibb.co/YcRhnCd)
(https://i.ibb.co/MGM4JX0/902-CCDE2-CE4-E-4-BA9-A4-C9-0594532-ADD51.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fn45Tcw)
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Thanks Dan.
Yes the shooter is good with a short gun. That's the competition he got the most trophies in back when he had folks to compete with within an hour of home. Hardly ever hits the tomato vine when picking off hornworms with the rimfire. :o ;D
Then why bother with a smoothbore?
Sadly the lack of shooters is afflicting all the more traditional disciplines as well as some newer ones like BPCR Silhouette. I shoot MLs and when I can Service Rifle, but the closest matches are 125+- miles. It used to attract a lot of people in places like Butte, it's so low some matches are cancelled in MT. This is not good for shooting sports in general. Though we have a lot of shooters, at least with brass suppository stuff, people don't like to compete it seems. So more history dies....
Shooting flintlock rifle and pistol Sunday, but we seldom get more than 6-8 shooters.... Low population (Montana is 4th largest state with about 1 million population) we only have one young ML shooter. Membership dues will no longer pay for the insurance. :'(
I should be greasing patches right now (or hauling garbage ;D) so I better sign off....
Excuse the brass suppository mentions but the decline is endemic, its not just ML shoots.
I wish I knew a way to turn this around.
Dan
(https://i.ibb.co/SwdwNrW/WVIh1klt-Tae2i-Jkff6thb-A-thumb-aa39.jpg) (https://ibb.co/MkGkn6W)
I had wondered how many active shooters there were on the east side. Up here in the NW corner of the state, we still average between 60-80 shooters, down from around 150 ten years ago. There are a lot of the old timers who have died off. We get quite a few young ones at least trying it out, with our club involvement of training 4H and Boy Scouts. The numbers of shooters we get from BC and Alberta help out, too.