AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Contemporary Longrifle Collecting => Topic started by: Stoner creek on August 30, 2019, 05:37:56 PM
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It’s MY cup of tea! That folksy stuff is great. I like the back story and everything about it.
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WOW a piece of history! What caliber and condition of the bore please.
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Want to make sure I'm clear on it being a "new" fake! It's .45 smoothbore, bore is new although I faked the corrosion about 3"-4" down the muzzle in an applied/non-damaging manner. It could easily be removed if you want to shoot it.
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It's an "art piece," built as a contemporary fake.
Sorry, i am a noobie. When you say it is a fake, do you mean it was, specifically, made to deceive someone or it was inspired by an older model.
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It’s not meant to deceive any more than dozens of builders bench copies. EK is just more creative than most and can build believable guns that look like originals more than many.
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Good to see you posting some new work again Eric.I've always been a big fan!!!!!!!
Mitch
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It’s not meant to deceive any more than dozens of builders bench copies. EK is just more creative than most and can build believable guns that look like originals more than many.
Thank you. I'm still learning the jargon. :P
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I saw this a few days ago on the blog...or somewhere. I was completely fooled into believing it was an old gun. Very nice work and completely convincing. Cool beans man.
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Thanks guys! It's a really difficult rifle to photograph, and (imho) it actually looks more believable in-hand than it does in the photos, although I'll nitpick everything until the day I die.
It's very difficult (for me anyway) to explain how I see this type of work. I fully understand that probably 50% of people hate them, thinking I'm nothing but a faker. I view it in my own mind as storytelling, and it's one of the reasons I call it an "art piece" as in my experience most people interested in something like this are not buying it as a shooter but more typically as comparable to a piece of art like a painting or sculpture; something you would not expect to "do" anything. I make sure they're well-marked on most interior surfaces, and frankly if any buyer requested I sign it externally (and then age the signature I assume), I surely would do so.
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fake or not - its beautiful
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I'm one of 50% that loves this type of artistic expression. It sure gets the imaginative juices flowing.
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Very nice work! I don't think they have to be old to be original!
Jim
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Hi Guys,
I am going to be a fly in the ointment. We try to keep comments about things for sale focused on the sale process not commentary about the item. The reason is that we want to make sure a seriously interested party does not have to wade through potentially pages of comments to express their interest in the gun. Some newer folks may not be aware of private messaging and use the listing post as means of first contact with the seller. Our purpose is to help that connection to happen. Eric is certainly free to post the gun in the "Contemporary" section and attract and address comments not related to the sale there. We do this because there were instances in which a buyer missed their chance because the seller did not see the inquiry from the buyer because of other comments.
dave
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Hi Guys,
I am going to be a fly in the ointment. We try to keep comments about things for sale focused on the sale process not commentary about the item. The reason is that we want to make sure a seriously interested party does not have to wade through potentially pages of comments to express their interest in the gun. Some newer folks may not be aware of private messaging and use the listing post as means of first contact with the seller. Our purpose is to help that connection to happen. Eric is certainly free to post the gun in the "Contemporary" section and attract and address comments not related to the sale there. We do this because there were instances in which a buyer missed their chance because the seller did not see the inquiry from the buyer because of other comments.
dave
I just got busted for this over the helmet sale....Let's move the gun over to the "Contemporary" page as well so it can be discussed as it deserves.
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Eric marked the for sale ad as sold and requested a moderator to remove ad per ALR rules.
Maybe he is willing to post photos in this thread if you ask nicely.
Dennis
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Oops sorry didn't realize there were no photos here now - kind of funny discussing something with no photos.
I'm just very happy and honored that folks appreciate what I try to accomplish sometimes! So thanks.
(https://i.ibb.co/x7wtbXd/IMG-2107.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1mBtN7j)
(https://i.ibb.co/jZw0KLV/IMG-2087.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rfp8PZb)
(https://i.ibb.co/S5hyygL/IMG-2088.jpg) (https://ibb.co/34DddbJ)
(https://i.ibb.co/7kHbkmV/IMG-2090.jpg) (https://ibb.co/2Zw5Z4P)
(https://i.ibb.co/F0rxSPd/IMG-2092.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LJFkLGs)
(https://i.ibb.co/Tv7tS2C/IMG-2094.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vwTkGqt)
(https://i.ibb.co/zHc8pT1/IMG-2096.jpg) (https://ibb.co/k6n3jsp)
(https://i.ibb.co/R4zHKSf/IMG-2098.jpg) (https://ibb.co/n8zky09)
(https://i.ibb.co/pyqYzvj/IMG-2100.jpg) (https://ibb.co/q56TsMY)
(https://i.ibb.co/xGMDsR2/IMG-2104.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4Mj7f5F)
(https://i.ibb.co/8N1Rshq/IMG-2102.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7jsTC9P)
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I'm a particular fan of the way you worked the brass aging.
Kevin
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Thanks for moving that over, it's worthy of more study and conversation. Being a "Faker" myself, although not on EK's level, I know most people have no idea how much work goes into something like this. It's very difficult to produce a convincing product. Thanks EK for agreeing to the move so we could discuss. I could probably sit down with you and that gun for at least a day and pick your brain about your techniques.
How do you think your gun relates to this one? Or not at all? Sort of has the same feel to me. Might have been made in the same area only mush earlier?
(https://i.ibb.co/HnLg315/20190218-142724.png) (https://ibb.co/BqHsFd0)
(https://i.ibb.co/84LDt5Q/20190218-143911.png) (https://ibb.co/n8NstcK)
(https://i.ibb.co/y8b51VW/20190218-144211.png) (https://ibb.co/RCVPm7z)
(https://i.ibb.co/rwXWFkL/20190218-144517.png) (https://ibb.co/5RJ7GTz)
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Eric,put me on the definite LIKE list.It makes me curious what inspires such a piece and then then have the ability to build it in such a convincing manner.
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I cant seem to find pictures of the discussed gun. Can someone point this old dumb redneck in the right direction please.
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Pictures aren’t showing up for me either. I believe the gun in question is on the Contemporary Makers Blog.
http://contemporarymakers.blogspot.com/2019/08/blue-mountain-berks-co-rifle.html
Greg
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Thanks G.Pennell. Just took a gander at it. I like it LOTS. Great Job Eric. I love your aging process
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As far as the 50% one way or the other-- here's an aspect of fakaging I like: It showcases the makers' of such work skills which can be applied to restorations of genuine antiques (if that is also something they do), to help preserve original pieces looking -as they were-. AND I trust that all good men and fair ladies mark their works and restos properly, just as Mr. Kettenburg does.
Besides--nothing like this level of work went into that "Hawken" fake that brought 12k recently. Nope, and who knows if it wasn't marked by the "artist" internally (being so far off, maybe wasn't felt necessary).
Sure, money is tempting but INTEGRITY is priceless, and I think there's no shortage of that around here.
Also the best way to learn to spot a forgery (when a fake is passed as original) is to learn and understand the art of aging such that one can detect the subtle differences in patina earned and patina applied. It's a little funny now when I see "aged" furniture or art made of metal and wood my mind is always sorting out how they did what to get this or that effect and how it might have been done otherwise.
Fine bit of work here.
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Eric - man that's a great gun, may be my favorite out of all your work I've seen so far. You've taken everything I like about the best of the old ones including the "story" (boy there's a word that covers a whole lot of ground) and used it to create something fresh. So well done.
I like your explanation of what you're doing. Newly built pieces like this one whose stories include the passage of time and the effects of use and the elements are bound to be misunderstood by some. In a way I regard pieces like these as artistic representations the old guns themselves AND all they bore witness to. They may be likened to modern interpretive paintings of historical events.
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Eric, I had a WOW! moment when i saw this on Contemporary Makers...thought it was one of those sleeper auction pieces that so seldom yield anything of merit...then to find it's modern is really cool! I had a Jack Brooks rifle he made for himself in 1987, without the signature and date, i swear it looked like a 1770's relic, including the bore (which performed well); this fits that wonderful tradition...love it...spectacular work!
Mike: that "Running Deer" rifle looks very much like the tradition of carving and architecture coming out of the Rockbridge County Virginia area in the 1770-80 period; but who really knows for sure...lots of influences up and down the Great Road in the 18th century.
Bruce Larson
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Mike: that "Running Deer" rifle looks very much like the tradition of carving and architecture coming out of the Rockbridge County Virginia area in the 1770-80 period; but who really knows for sure...lots of influences up and down the Great Road in the 18th century.
Bruce Larson
Thanks, I've been slightly baffled by that running deer gun. I saw some similarities in EK's gun.....
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The running deer is one of those enigma pieces that will probably be argued over until another shows up with a signature or something more regionally oriented. There are two pretty firm camps, one based in VA and one in Berks Co. Personally, I'm fairly non-committal because I have no idea whatsoever where it was made. It's pretty unique without any really obvious co conspirators.
Someone sent me a pm and asked about this current 'fake' and a comparison or not to the well worn "bird head" rifle in RCA II. You know, the step wrist gun with the somewhat ugly bird head-ish brass box slapped on the side (later) and brass repairs under the very deformed guard. Now that, to my mind, is an earlier ca. 1780s upper townships rifle, probably Kutztown or north and east toward the blue mountain. I sense somewhat of a forerunner of the later pieces by Jacob George and Stoffel Long in that rifle, and for all I know it may be an unsigned Henry George (Jacob's father) who was a gunsmith and likely trained a number of those upper Berks townships guys. Unfortunately there as yet has not materialized a signed Henry George.
This is largely modeled after a few unsigned rifles that I think are probably Stoffel Long, although I have to throw Jacob George out there as the two obviously had some kind of connection. Mike D'Ambra has had some cool "stoffels" over the years despite no signature, and this is largely modeled after a couple of those as well as some of the published stuff.
One way I look at aging these is that while initially you can age up the parts individually, i.e. I use a pvc 'sweat pipe' to get the barrel going, and I may preliminarily fume the brass in ammonia (nothing looks better but be careful!) in a closed container, ultimately these rifles have been refinished probably 20 times and at some point the whole piece has to be put together and THEN you have to continue on with the aging, rubbing back, refinish, age some more etc etc etc all as a complete unit. At some point, taking them apart repeatedly becomes a detriment. So one thing that is mandatory is a large enough somewhat impermeable container or tent to fit the entire rifle. After all, a rifle that may have dried out and aged in an attic, or barn, or basement, or closet for 100 years, was doing so as a completed object and not a pile of separate parts.
I really, REALLY appreciate all of the commentary guys. Thank you very much.
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Eric , Like everyone else I like your Blue mountain rifle.. But I recall an Angstadt rifle you did a few years ago . Its one I have remembered and would like to see again. You had antiqued it. I don't recall where it was posted.. If you know the one I speak of and get a chance could you post them again... Louie
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Well, I wish it were me that bought it. I hope who ever did enjoys it as much as I would have. If my "ship ever sails in" (not likely ;)) I'd put you on retainer to build what ever tripped your trigger. What a great collection that would be!
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That's one heck of a compliment Mike, thanks!
I think truthfully, all of us get much more excited building something that inspires us or really captures our interest 'in the moment.' For me, coming up with an imagined storyline and then turning it into something tangible to fit the narrative really floats my boat.
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http://www.erickettenburg.com/Site/Peter_Angstadt.html
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http://www.erickettenburg.com/Site/Relics....html
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That's one heck of a compliment Mike, thanks!
I think truthfully, all of us get much more excited building something that inspires us or really captures our interest 'in the moment.' For me, coming up with an imagined storyline and then turning it into something tangible to fit the narrative really floats my boat.
As a builder, there's nothing I enjoy more than making something I want to build instead of what somebody else wants built. I used to take on everything, but now I'm really particular. I have something on the bench right now that I have a free hand to do what ever I want with. Very enjoyable. :)
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Louie - I've done a number of Angstadt rifles and I thought I had two on my site. Art linked to one, which I really was happy with, but there was another that I was sure was on the same page but it's not coming up for me. The second one was much more of "fake" as opposed to the link above, which was more of a contemporary aging job. I haven't been able to do anything with my own site since 2015 since apple discontinued iWeb and since I no longer even have the original files. I have to do an entirely new site over with a new developer program and it makes me exhausted just thinking about it!
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Eric,, Thanks to you and Art for your effort. Those are both very nice guns but not the one I recall....I guess your computer ate it..Sure seems to happen to me. Louie
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https://contemporarymakers.blogspot.com/2008/12/eric-kettenburg-handmade-lock.html
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https://contemporarymakers.blogspot.com/2009/07/rifle-by-eric-kettenburg-in-tradition.html
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Couple color pix of the earlier “ugly bird head patchbox” rifle. Not great angles.
(https://i.ibb.co/nmbYDpj/165-B55-DA-B196-47-AC-A7-C4-E28-B7745-DE99.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tK4vbRD)
(https://i.ibb.co/nj3mKgv/B24-A3-B84-CB7-F-43-B8-8-C0-A-C02-E215-F5-D41.jpg) (https://ibb.co/YhDQVRM)
(https://i.ibb.co/WHQvbsb/30342449-E930-470-E-A332-DD383911-DD9-D.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NFX2878)
(https://i.ibb.co/j5462Np/CE675-ED9-C510-4-F9-B-A715-C1-B01-A7-DBAC9.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dcKWqTh)
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Glad to see that rifle has a new, more appropriate guard and has been repaired around the underside of the lock. I wish Earl still posted here, would love to see more pics of it after being somewhat restored.
IMHO, if ever there was a rifle ripe to be an unsigned 'upper townships' Henry George rifle, that would probably be it.
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Outstanding piece of work Mr. K
Properly aging a gun is every bit an art as the carving & engraving ect...
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Thank you! This time, for probably the first time ever, I actually decided to try to loosely keep track of time. Nothing specific, but enough to be able to state with certainty that the aging style illustrated here took me a full three times as long as the time taken to actually stock up the rifle 'as-new.' Kind of crazy.
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Well, holding the rifle in hand, I can certainly see that a lot of care and effort went in to the aging. A truly wonderful piece.
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Eric, I don't think I have ever seen one of your rifle/smoothbore creations I didn't fall in love with. This is another fine example. Your work inspires me to be more creative.
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I’m a Berks County native, born and raised here. I can see the Blue Mountain from my kitchen.
I can’t express how much I enjoy the pics of this rifle.