AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: Scota4570 on September 01, 2019, 06:07:52 PM
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As patch lube?
I had been using a commercial product in a squeeze bottle. It looked an smelled like the institutional hand soap that comes in the white beehive shape dispenser. I ran out of the commercial patch lube.
I had Murphys on hand and filled the squeeze bottle. The murphys works great. I am getting tiny groups and much less fouling than I am used to. It is a bit slimy to work with while loading. I shot two high scores in a pistol match using it yesterday.
Anyone else using MOS as a patch lube?
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I'll have to give it a try, Scota. Might work V well in a scabby old barrel!
I do use "Udderly Smooth" in lots of guns, but it has water content, so more for range work.
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As patch lube?
I had been using a commercial product in a squeeze bottle. It looked an smelled like the institutional hand soap that comes in the white beehive shape dispenser. I ran out of the commercial patch lube.
I had Murphys on hand and filled the squeeze bottle. The murphys works great. I am getting tiny groups and much less fouling than I am used to. It is a bit slimy to work with while loading. I shot two high scores in a pistol match using it yesterday.
Anyone else using MOS as a patch lube?
I add about 10% rubbing alcohol mixed in with it.
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I use 1/3 Murphy's Oil Soap, 1/3 water and 1/3 rubbing alcohol as a cleaning solution for my muzzle loaders and black powder suppository guns with excellent results. The alcohol is added to aid in drying. It cleans up the fouling really quickly.
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Anyone else using MOS as a patch lube?
I add about 10% rubbing alcohol mixed in with it.
This "x" percent of rubbing alcohol always confuses me as I only see 91%, 70% and 50% isopropyl alcohols sold as "rubbing alcohol" in my state. So which "rubbing alcohol" are you referring to because they vary considerably.
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Anyone else using MOS as a patch lube?
I add about 10% rubbing alcohol mixed in with it.
This "x" percent of rubbing alcohol always confuses me as I only see 91%, 70% and 50% isopropyl alcohols sold as "rubbing alcohol" in my state. So which "rubbing alcohol" are you referring to because they vary considerably.
Beats me, what ever is on hand around the house. Don't measure either, just a dollop or what ever looks like 10%.
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For my cleaning solution, I normally use the 91% isopropyl alcohol. The other ingredient is water in the mixture. If I used the 51%, I'd just eliminate the water and use 1/3 MOS and 2/3 51% alcohol to get the same ratio's of ingredients.
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I won’t use anything else. I can shoot all day without a hitch.
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Ever take a deep wiff of Mr. Flintlock lube and cleaner? Both the color and oder have more than a hint of MOS.
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I use 1/3 Murphy's Oil Soap, 1/3 water and 1/3 rubbing alcohol as a cleaning solution for my muzzle loaders and black powder suppository guns with excellent results. The alcohol is added to aid in drying. It cleans up the fouling really quickly.
Murphy's mix! At least that's what we call it in the cowboy action shooting world.
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Ever take a deep wiff of Mr. Flintlock lube and cleaner? Both the color and oder have more than a hint of MOS.
Yes! I told a couple people this, but they didn't think it smelled the same...how could it!
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Ever take a deep wiff of Mr. Flintlock lube and cleaner? Both the color and oder have more than a hint of MOS.
Molly, Certainly smells like MOS and alcohol to me. Thought this for sometime.
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What is the reason for adding rubbing alcohol?
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What is the reason for adding rubbing alcohol?
Helps it dry out faster.
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I went digging around here because I thought I remembered reading of MOS-based lube before.
And I had. In more than one thread here back around 2010 there were a few different guys complaining of the brown gunk they found in the grooves after cleaning when using MOS in their lube. That it took carb or brake cleaner to cut the gunk and return their bores to shiny metal.
I also read enough threads to find that some folks, as seen by the support here, don't have that problem. Has anyone sorted out the how/why the brown stuff? I even read of father/son shooters where the son wouldn't use it but the father loved it-so that rules out weather differences.
I'm just curious where the naysayers are now. Or will this thread kick up another "spike" in folks who try it and don't like their results after a few sessions and cleanings. Or maybe the solution to brown barrel residue was found in the years between, and I didn't read enough threads?
Anybody still around that had the difficult to remove brown stuff problems?
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I’ve been using it to clean for yrs with no problem what so ever. I do remember a thread where some said that they wouldn’t use it. To each his own I guess
~Tony
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I’ve been using it to clean for yrs with no problem what so ever. I do remember a thread where some said that they wouldn’t use it. To each his own I guess
~Tony
This was specifically from use as a patch lube, not a cleaning agent, as I read it. Perhaps it's no longer an issue.
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I never thought about using it straight. It appears in a LOT of “ home brew “ recipes so that it’s utility is hard to argue. Here’s a few facts about the product, make of them what you will. Murphy’s Oil Soap is a blend of citronella oil and sodium hydroxide ( aka: lye or caustic soda) The citronella oil is what we recognize in Mr. Flintlock ‘s product. It has a VERY unique aroma. Some would say objectionable, but that’s a matter of opinion.
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Interesting, I see the NAOH concentration is between 1 and 5%. Not much. Keep that in perspective. Bagels are boiled in NAOH solution before baking. I have not noticed any effect on my skin associated with a strong base exposure. When I can a will check the pH and see how caustic it is.
Yes, I have been using it straight as a patch lube.
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All soaps contain lye. I’m not talking detergents.
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"All soaps contain lye"
Not really relevant, but I'm pretty sure the lye gets used up as part of the saponification/reaction process. At least that's what a soapmaker told me.
I thought that Murphy's has some type of palm oil derivative, or tall oil from pulp. Either way the Murphy's/Water/Alcohol does work like a charm, but so do a lot of products.
Wasn't Pine-Sol a thing for a while (70's) too?
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I’ve been using it to clean for yrs with no problem what so ever. I do remember a thread where some said that they wouldn’t use it. To each his own I guess
~Tony
This was specifically from use as a patch lube, not a cleaning agent, as I read it. Perhaps it's no longer an issue.
Oops, disregard!
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"All soaps contain lye"
Not really relevant, but I'm pretty sure the lye gets used up as part of the saponification/reaction process. At least that's what a soapmaker told me.
I thought that Murphy's has some type of palm oil derivative, or tall oil from pulp. Either way the Murphy's/Water/Alcohol does work like a charm, but so do a lot of products.
Wasn't Pine-Sol a thing for a while (70's) too?
Right. Saponification, the making of soap from fat/oils and lye, is usually carefully calculated to err on the fats/oils side of the chemical process, that way -all- the lye is consumed and the product may have a bit of greasiness, but zero causticity. So if done properly there's zero lye "in soap" only in "soap-making".
I'm yet surprised that no one remembers the nay-sayers on this MOS. There was more than one, I suppose it was all their error. I'll leave it be.
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I remember that too, Wade. It did not happen to me. I also recall that folks, maybe not here, but on a cast bullet forum
I used to participate in, stated they got the tar-like substance from using bore-butter & that it would build up and needed
to be removed with break cleaner or some-such chemical.
I have not had ANYTHING build up in my bores since I learned to use snug combinations, in about 1973/4. For something to
build up in the bore, would be an impossibility. My ball and patch combinations go right into the corners of the rifling with lots
of compression - and - easy loading.
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If i remember correctly, Roger Fisher was not a fan of Murphys oil soap and claimed it would build up in the grooves over time and harm accuracy.
I had a similar issue with vegetable oils and some dubiously "natural" neetsfoot oil: the stuff would bake on to the bore behind the patch and ball, starting just over the powder. I did use oven cleaner (containing lye) or actual lye to remove slivers of it from the grooves. It could have been a coincidence, but happened more than once...and i patch pretty tight except the rare experiment with thinner but tight patching and bigger ball. Since i went to water as my patch lube, have never seen it again.
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Honest question here and I’m not trying to be a butt but, how can build up harm accuracy when the build up is way down the bore? I’ve always been told that the last couple inches of the barrel control accuracy. I’m not saying I encourage build up but I haven’t had any with MOS.
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You will get more knowledgable responses yet, but the first though in my head was pressure. As bore diameter shrinks, pressure increases and this alone will affect accuracy. There are many reports of the early barrels (70’s through 90’s) where the “seasoning” myth remained strong, and people sold them cheap after they felt accuracy was lost due to the barrel being shot out. Those who bought these barrels simply cleaned the build-up out and had perfect barrels once again.
Walk
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I went digging around here because I thought I remembered reading of MOS-based lube before.
And I had. In more than one thread here back around 2010 there were a few different guys complaining of the brown gunk they found in the grooves after cleaning when using MOS in their lube. That it took carb or brake cleaner to cut the gunk and return their bores to shiny metal.
I also read enough threads to find that some folks, as seen by the support here, don't have that problem. Has anyone sorted out the how/why the brown stuff? I even read of father/son shooters where the son wouldn't use it but the father loved it-so that rules out weather differences.
I'm just curious where the naysayers are now. Or will this thread kick up another "spike" in folks who try it and don't like their results after a few sessions and cleanings. Or maybe the solution to brown barrel residue was found in the years between, and I didn't read enough threads?
Anybody still around that had the difficult to remove brown stuff problems?
Wade, you are partially right. I was the main screamer about this at the time. But it wasn't MOS that was the culprit, it was Bore Butter. I had been using it for a couple of years (or more) in a GPR and I gradually started noticing my cleaning patches were not getting really clean anymore so I started looking into it to see what was going on. After I had cleaned the rifle and dry patches were almost clean I put the rifle in the corner to dry then ran a tight dry patch down the bore it came back covered with a brownish, greenish, thick mess on the patch. So I cleaned it again with the same results.
Accuracy was the same. No change at all. Up til recently I had always cleaned the same way and my dry clean patches had been clean, so had the barrel. What changed to cause this? What was it down in my bore? Well the only thing different was now I was using Bore Butter and was this stuff the seasoning they talked about? So I tried to clean it out with basically no luck. That's when I soaked a patch with brake cleaner and ran that down the barrel. Now that worked! A couple of soaked patches and a few dry ones and I had a clean barrel again.
Remember I had been using BB for several years and had a lot built up. So it was more noticeable.
After that I tested a lot of lubes both commercial and home made and found good things and bad about most all of them. I still use a Bore Butter patch for my first shot when deer hunting. I leave my rifles loaded until I take the first shot of the season and the BB patch will not cause that rust ring around the patch even if left loaded all season. That can't be said of all the lubes out there. Yes I know that Mink Oil from TOW is just as good but if you don't have any then BB works pretty good for the first shot too.
I have used a lot of Original LeHigh Valley and I'm now shooting some of Mr. Flintlocks lube and find I like them both. But only for a target lube, not a hunting load. I haven't noticed any real buildup of either one down the barrel like I did with BB. No problem cleaning my barrel and all I use is water.
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Not saying it was the same effect as the ‘alleged brown crud building up in the bores’, but I have seen many times where too much lube building up in a barrel ruins the accuracy. Mostly caused by that “more must be better crowd” and also those who felt that they had to “season the barrel” with the same lube. There was so much lube, that the patched ball ‘skipped’ down the barrel and didn’t stay snug in the rifling.
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Some interesting responses. Cannot see how a patched ball can skip down the bore. This absolutely cannot happen - impossibility in one of mine. I don't care how much lube is/was used. When there is compression in the bottom of each & every groove, how can the ball then skip over the rifling? Now, a thumb-started ball on a factory sharp crown is likely to skip regardless of the amount of lube or if no lube.
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Our 4H shooting sports Muzzleloader kids shoot more than most grown men. We use equal parts of MOS and 70% rubbing alcohol for patch lube, cleaning and preservative. Why? Because it’s easy, and it plain works. 3 patches and the bore is clean!!! No running patches between shots either!!!
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Yep. Happened to me way back.
My load requires a short starter and i use Goex BP. I was shooting one of the fad MOS lubes of the day. Might have been called moose milk or some such. Loaded easy. After several outings I would clean my rifle and then Id run a dry cleaning patch down and would grab as i pulled it out leaving brown streaks from the grooves on it. This was not rust but a very sticky substance.
It took brake cleaner to get that brown crud out of the groove bottoms.
I went back to spit patches for target shooting and have never had the problem again.
If you shoot one of the MOS lubes, I suggest Tightly patching a jag and running it in and out of your clean dry barrel. Let us know what you find.
YMMV........Lynn
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Interesting, I see the NAOH concentration is between 1 and 5%. Not much. Keep that in perspective. Bagels are boiled in NAOH solution before baking. I have not noticed any effect on my skin associated with a strong base exposure. When I can a will check the pH and see how caustic it is.
Yes, I have been using it straight as a patch lube.
I had an unopened bottle of MOS in the kitchen and stuck a PH strip into it. I'm calling it "8" where 7 is neutral, so less harsh than most store bought soaps and shampoos.
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Years ago I used a mix of equal parts of MOS, 91% alcohol, and hydrogen peroxide as an after shooting cleaner. I was not using Bore Butter, used spit for range sessions. I began to have difficulty pushing a tight patch and ball down the barrel. Accuracy went to $#*! and I noticed brown streaks , not rust, on what should have been clean patches. I used brake clean to get the $#@* out of the barrel and quit using it. Clean with water now. Maybe it was the H2O2 ?
-Ron
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Hydrogen Peroxide, H2O2, is an oxidizer, it can result in rust (oxidation) in your barrel. Our local gun club members substituted the mixture to be 1/3 each of water, rubbing alcohol and water. Never had a problem with rusting and cleaned well.
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Hydrogen Peroxide, H2O2, is an oxidizer, it can result in rust (oxidation) in your barrel. Our local gun club members substituted the mixture to be 1/3 each of water, rubbing alcohol and water. Never had a problem with rusting and cleaned well.
Water alcohol and water should work very well. I've found water alone is all I need.
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Ever take a deep wiff of Mr. Flintlock lube and cleaner? Both the color and oder have more than a hint of MOS.
These pine cleaners are made using a paper making by-product known in industry as "tall oil". There are different grades of it. As gotten from the paper pulping it is a mixture of pine oils and pine resins. Depends on which pine woods were being pulped and how they ran the pulping chemistry. With a caustic some of it can be turned into a soap. Particular grades make the best mixture of oil and resin for use in the bp guns. Some better than others.
Bill K.
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I have a quart of Tall Oil, but have not gone any further with it, as to lube.
We had quite a discussion on this here at ALR some years back.
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Wade Patton...Anybody still around that had the difficult to remove brown stuff problems?
I had a running discussion once with Daryl because I always have a brown deposit on my patches. He swore up down and sideways that it was escaping gas and I swore up down and sideways that I still got it without shooting during cleaning. I never got to the bottom of it. I don't think you're supposed to get to the bottom of it.
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;) I think he swore up, down and sideways it was due to a loose fit, and the powder flame was causing the
burning of the MOS onto the bore. Same thing happens with loose ball/patches and bore butter. There is a
buildup.
It has never happened to me, however, how do YOU think it is caused? It's all speculation. That there
is a buildup, appears true - so - what causes it and why? Same with castor oil. If you've ever used model
airplane engines, you know about the burnt-on castor oil. I would not use that one as a lube-enhancer, either.
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by the by...what's in bore butter?
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Besides lip balm? One of the moderators on a cast bullet forum bought a production rifle and proceeded to use
bore butter. After some 10 shots, his accuracy went to pot and upon bore scoping it, he found the groove corners
to be plugged with a brown sticky substance, one end of the bore to the other. He said he needed carburetor cleaner
to remove the 'guk'. Now, we had talked (PM'd) about tight ball and patch combinations and he noted he was going
to use commercial bore butter lubed .018" ticking patches. I bought some of those many years ago, and had calipered
them at .016", compressed the same way I do the 10oz denim at .022" to .0225". Those OxYoke patches were too thin,
imho.
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CapGunKid
May i ask was that an MOS lube you used and how tight do you patch the ball in that rifle?
And did u pull out a brown substance from the grooves on a tightly patched jag after you cleaned the rifle?