AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: Jim Kibler on September 02, 2019, 10:24:09 PM
-
These locks are different than all other modern production locks. Instead of using investment castings all critical parts are machined. This results in a product that is far more precise and repeatable when compared to current available locks. I would estimate the tolerances with machining are an order of magnitude (10X) better than that available with investment casting.
In addition, we have spent a tremendous amount of time developing a historically correct and stylistically beautiful lock that functions impeccably. I must give credit to Frank House for offering critique and suggestions during this process. Having someone to work with during this process proved invaluable.
So what does extremely fine tolerances and great design result in? A lock that functions extremely smooth, free from many problems associated with current production locks and one that performs the required task very well. The function of each lock is nearly indistinguishable to the next lock. We’re obsessed with details and the results show.
This is the first lock we will be offering. This represents a nice quality round-faced English lock from the 1760’s. It’s not a copy of any particular lock, but rather fully designed to incorporate what we feel to be the best features of many reference pieces. The first production run shown below are reserved for our Colonial rifle kit, but the next large run will be available for sale individually. We are estimating a 6 week wait for orders, but depending on demand, that may be longer.
To summarize, our goal is to provide locks with impeccable, design, construction and function at an affordable price. This has proven to be incredibly difficult, but it is our commitment to all of you.
Specifications:
- Fully machined components: Lock plate, tumbler, sear, bridle, sear spring, mainspring, frizzen spring.
- Investment castings used: Frizzen, cock and top jaw. Note, all critical surfaces of the frizzen are machined or surface ground ( bottom of pan cover, sides of frizzen foot and frizzen pivot hole
and toe of frizzen). This ensures precise repeatable function.
- Completely interchangeable parts.
- Typical machined tolerances are in the range of +- .001” while critical locations such as pivots are held tighter.
- Frizzens are 1095 steel with a surface carbon boost heat treatment to insure great function.
- Springs designed for optimum performance and manufacturing process guarantees a high degree of consistency.
- Bridle located with pins rather than screws for strength and precision.
A more detailed description of this lock will be shared on our website soon. In addition, we will be producing a video introducing the lock.
A few final notes to mention… All machining and lock production is done by us in-house. This will improve availability as well as quality and allows us to offer these at an affordable price.
Thanks everybody for all the support!
All the best,
Jim and Katherine.
(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0605/5301/products/SouthernMountainRifle_1295.jpg?v=1567448779)
(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0605/5301/products/SouthernMountainRifle_1348.jpg?v=1567448726)
(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0605/5301/products/SouthernMountainRifle_1272.jpg?v=1567448779)
(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0605/5301/products/Kibler_Colonial_Lock_First_Run_Resized1.jpg?v=1567448779)
(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0605/5301/products/SouthernMountainRifle_1454.jpg?v=1567448779)
(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0605/5301/products/SouthernMountainRifle_1286.jpg?v=1567448779)
(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0605/5301/products/SouthernMountainRifle_1287.jpg?v=1567448689)
(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0605/5301/products/SouthernMountainRifle_1393.jpg?v=1567448779)
(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0605/5301/products/SouthernMountainRifle_1449.jpg?v=1567448779)
(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0605/5301/products/SouthernMountainRifle_1425.jpg?v=1567448779)
-
Super nice! I particularly like the lower bridle leg pinned into the plate. This is like a "new golden age" of parts availability.
-
Cool! Reasonable price too.
-
Nice looking lock Jim....looking forward to trying pone out!!!
Mitch
-
Super nice! I particularly like the lower bridle leg pinned into the plate. This is like a "new golden age" of parts availability.
Thanks Eric. The bridle is located with two pins. The one at the bottom of the leg and another up near the top screw. I think this is a far superior method of alignment than relying on loose fitting screws / holes. I've found most good quality English locks to use this treatment. In practice it works very well. Our tolerances are very close and can't tolerate any misalignment.
All the best,
Jim
-
Cool! Reasonable price too.
I'd like to point out that the price isn't necessarily indicative of the quality in this case. I've had some of the best modern builders suggest selling these for considerably more, but we're trying very hard to produce a top-notch product at an affordable price. We want to sell as many locks as we can we feel that pricing is important. It's not easy to offer them at this price but we feel we can.
All the best,
Jim
-
One final note and I'll shut up for a while. Conveying quality is often very difficult especially to those not intimately familiar with the details of English locks and machining. In simpler terms this is akin to the difference between pre-carved stocks from a duplicator versus those produced from a CNC machine. They are truly in a different class. This is not an insult directed towards those producing locks using largely investment cast parts, but rather just an attempt to convey the difference.
-
Where are we seeing the price? Not that I'm hung up on price but I must be having a 'duh' moment as I don't see it.
-
Cool! Reasonable price too.
I'd like to point out that the price isn't necessarily indicative of the quality in this case. I've had some of the best modern builders suggest selling these for considerably more, but we're trying very hard to produce a top-notch product at an affordable price. We want to sell as many locks as we can we feel that pricing is important. It's not easy to offer them at this price but we feel we can.
All the best,
Jim
My comment was not directed at quality. I'm sure they are well built and well thought out. I've never ran a CNC machine, but as a computer programmer I see every day how much more precise things can be built vs a human. I'm also sure you could sell these at a much higher price and appreciate the fact that you are being reasonable. I sincerely hope I can finish a couple of flintlocks that I'm working on now and buy one(or many) of your CNC locks down the road.
-
Where are we seeing the price? Not that I'm hung up on price but I must be having a 'duh' moment as I don't see it.
On his web site:
https://kiblerslongrifles.com/collections/locks (https://kiblerslongrifles.com/collections/locks)
https://kiblerslongrifles.com/collections/locks/products/kibler-colonial-flintlock
-
Gotcha! Holy c**p that's giving it away.
-
I think it's particularly awesome that guys like you and Chris Laubach who really understand the possibilities inherent in this type of machining are utilizing it to take an archaic product with a real niche market to the next level. Super freaking duper for the rest of us!
-
Thanks Eric. We are including these with our Colonial kit with no change in price. We're also trying to be what we feel is realistic about what price the market will support. A talented custom builder might not think twice about paying double for this, but many beginners on a budget wouldn't consider it. We believe the majority of parts like this are sold to people where price matters. We've built our business on selling quality and quantity. We wan't to continue with this approach. It's not easy for us, as it puts a lot of strain on the manufacturing processes, but we feel it can be done.
-
Awesome Jim, and beautiful to boot. I'll be ordering... ;)
dave
-
Hi Jim,
Wonderful! I love the design and agree with Eric that between you and Chris Laubach, we may be seeing a new era of component quality. Jim would you mind informing me what the metal alloys are? I assume the tumbler, sear, and bridle are O-1 and the frizzen some sort of high carbon steel? Are the lock plates mild steel?
dave
-
Hi Jim,
Wonderful! I love the design and agree with Eric that between you and Chris Laubach, we may be seeing a new era of component quality. Jim would you mind informing me what the metal alloys are? I assume the tumbler, sear, and bridle are O-1 and the frizzen some sort of high carbon steel? Are the lock plates mild steel?
dave
Thanks Dave. The tumbler and sear are 1018 case hardened (pack hardened). Frizzen is 1095 with carbon restore treatment. Yes, the plates are mild steel. Springs are currently machined from 6150.
Thanks,
Jim
-
Jim,
Will these lock fit in the lock mortice and trigger bar placement that you have in the early models of your colonial rifle? I think mine was #43 IIRC. If so put me on the list for one. I will visit the website to formalize order if they fit.
thanks, Bill Nash
-
Jim and Catherine, this is wonderful news, and that lock really will go great with your Colonial kit.
Big congrats on this major leap into the future!
-
Yes indeed -- a VERY reasonable price for such quality ;). I think these will be flying off the shelf in the near future.
-
Jim,
Will these lock fit in the lock mortice and trigger bar placement that you have in the early models of your colonial rifle? I think mine was #43 IIRC. If so put me on the list for one. I will visit the website to formalize order if they fit.
thanks, Bill Nash
Unfortunately, the new lock and the old lock have different plate profiles and are not interchangeable.
Katherine
-
Gold dollar work for a very low price when we consider what has
happened to the American dollar.Good job Jim and Katherine.
Bob Roller
-
Hi Jim,
The reason I ask about the alloys is that when (and I say when not if) I use your locks, I will need to anneal the frizzens and any other parts for engraving. Thanks for the response and I did see on your website that the frizzens are 1095 steel, which is very manageable.
dave
-
Jim,
You continue to amaze. With Friendship right around the corner, I am wondering if any of your new locks will be there for folks to put hands on..??
-
Very awesome!!! I had a sneaking suspicion you'd be making locks once you got the metal CNC....I expected them to be for your own kits though!
I think we all know what quality to expect. I think we all know that you don't tolerate "OK" based on your work and your kits.
You are absolutely right about pricing. I am learning and growing as a gun stocker. A build with a barrel inlet in a plank plus lock and mounts is in the $800 range. Even a rifle or 2 a year and that is a fairly expensive "hobby" for us guys making guns for ourselves. But at the same time, the lock is the heart of the rifle. I build rifles to hunt with and shoot. I want quality. It's a great thing to see the pricing.
I am nobody.....but I think the pricing is a smart move. I would bet you sell a ton more at that price point than you would if you sold them for double...which at the end of the year means more business for you guys and we all win with another quality lock on the market!
Like the other said....it's becoming a pretty exciting time to be a gun stocker.
-
Jim
I know you know more about metallurgy than I, so this is an honest question: What drove the selection of 1018 with case-hardening versus an alloy or "high-carbon" steel?
Aside from that curiosity, it looks like a real lock for the period, and I'm sure it will work like a champ. Seen several of your kits now finished by locals, and the quality of the kits is obvious!
-
If I missed it, my apologies. Will the locks be offered plain, or engraved as shown? Personally, I'd rather plain.
-
That is a nice looking lock! X2 on the bridle pinning. I look forward to handling one.
Best,
Chris E.
-
Hi Wayne,
The lock is sold with no engraving. Jim describes that on his web site.
dave
-
Hi Wayne,
The lock is sold with no engraving. Jim describes that on his web site.
dave
You're right, Dave. I checked the price and stopped there. :-[
-
Jim,
Will these lock fit in the lock mortice and trigger bar placement that you have in the early models of your colonial rifle? I think mine was #43 IIRC. If so put me on the list for one. I will visit the website to formalize order if they fit.
thanks, Bill Nash
Bill,
These locks will not fit the same mortice as those cut for Chambers round faced English locks. They are somewhat smaller in some areas. In particular forward of the pan area. Sorry!
Jim
-
Jim
I know you know more about metallurgy than I, so this is an honest question: What drove the selection of 1018 with case-hardening versus an alloy or "high-carbon" steel?
Aside from that curiosity, it looks like a real lock for the period, and I'm sure it will work like a champ. Seen several of your kits now finished by locals, and the quality of the kits is obvious!
Good question. Given the requirements of the parts and considering what was done originally it becomes clear that any number of different alloys would work fine for the tumbler and sear. I guess I chose 1018 for a few reasons, but might have been as well off with another choice. Here are some of the benefits of carburized 1018:
The material is readily available in a variety of sizes. This is important when setting up for CNC work
The material is cheap
It machines reasonably well
Heat treatment by pack carburizing allows a large number of parts to be heat treated at once in our shop.
The hard case and softer interior works well for parts such as these.
A free machining variety of mild steel might be something I consider in the future. Speed and process reliability become important with processes such as these.
Jim
-
If I missed it, my apologies. Will the locks be offered plain, or engraved as shown? Personally, I'd rather plain.
Yeah, I decided to polish one and engrave it just to show how it would look finished in this manner. These locks were typically engraved at least with borders and it really does change the look. To my eye it allows for them to better be compared to original examples. So, no engraving on ones being sold...
-
I'd also like to say thank you to everyone who has purchased and otherwise offered support of this endeavor. I can't really convey the resources that have gone into starting this venture and the great response has helped confirm it's been worthwhile.
All the best,
Jim and Katherine
-
If I missed it, my apologies. Will the locks be offered plain, or engraved as shown? Personally, I'd rather plain.
Yeah, I decided to polish one and engrave it just to show how it would look finished in this manner. These locks were typically engraved at least with borders and it really does change the look. To my eye it allows for them to better be compared to original examples. So, no engraving on ones being sold...
Wish we could have a CNC polished lock, oh how I hate that task :D
Dennis
-
I would pay a fairly hefty premium for a polished option on pretty much any lock!
-
Geez Jim,
What do you do in your spare time? Beautiful lock. Now I just need to come up with a fowler build to use it on.
-
Jim, that is a really good looking lock you made there. I'm sure I'll be getting one soon to check it out. Now you need to make a bit smaller late English lock for your southern rifle. ;D
-
Hi Jim,
Looking at the photos on your web site, it looks like the lock has no fly detent. I don't use set triggers if I can avoid them so it does not matter to me.
dave
-
I have to say that lock is a beauty. Pride point wise, it's a steal.
-
Hi Jim,
Looking at the photos on your web site, it looks like the lock has no fly detent. I don't use set triggers if I can avoid them so it does not matter to me.
dave
No fly in this first batch reserved for our single trigger Colonial kit. All locks that we sell individually will have a fly.
Jim
-
Mighty fine piece at a better than fair price !!
The most interesting part of the CNC production process, is that it has to be less of a pain to produce parts for a LH lock without having to create a whole new set of cast masters. ;)
Yup, I'm the lefty guy you knew was gonna show up and start asking questions... :)
-
Will the new locks fit the Kibler Colonial kits?
-
Will the new locks fit the Kibler Colonial kits?
Hi,
If you read the post above you will find your answer. The lock is made for the Kibler Colonial kits but it will not fit older kits using the Chambers lock.
dave
-
That is a beauty Jim and priced reasonably for sure. I don't have a use for it right away, but I know I will be buying one or more before long!
Did you use a shoulder bolt for the sear arm? I hope you say YES!
-
That is a beauty Jim and priced reasonably for sure. I don't have a use for it right away, but I know I will be buying one or more before long!
Did you use a shoulder bolt for the sear arm? I hope you say YES!
Thanks. Great question! The body of the sear screw is slightly larger than the major thread diameter so there is a very slight shoulder. We have a very good cnc screw machine shop making all of the screws and their control has been great. So the sear screw can be tightened completely and it positively stops without the bridle pinching the sear. The sear screw head contacts the bridle at the same time as well. This is a quality feature monitor and check for. It's quite frustrating to not be able to tighten this screw or have the head a mile above the bridle when tight.
Jim
-
Mighty fine piece at a better than fair price !!
The most interesting part of the CNC production process, is that it has to be less of a pain to produce parts for a LH lock without having to create a whole new set of cast masters. ;)
Yup, I'm the lefty guy you knew was gonna show up and start asking questions... :)
We will do some left handed versions in time. We will have to make additional masters of the frizzen and cock for investment castings. Fixturing will also have to be adjusted. We've taken the route of using a cast frizzen and cock to keep cost under control. They worked out very well on this first batch.
A little bit about the cnc approach for those interested... We've chosen to use a 3 axis approach and high density fixturing. This allows a lot of parts to be made with one set-up. This limits the number of times parts have to be loaded. Cycle times can be 8 hours or more for a batch. This helps keep costs down. Expensive custom fixturing must be made, however. So, with our approach it's not as simple as mirroring the program for left-handed versions. With a 5 axis approach, little to no custom fixturing is used, however the number of parts run at a time is very low and cycle times are much shorter. This requires more opperator intervention, but avoids expensive up front fixturing costs. Programs can also be easily mirrored and run for left-handed versions. There's always a give and take...
Jim
-
Fasinating work and a beautiful Lock!! Lefthand Versions would be fanstasic ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D. Not many alternatives for us South paws, which is the main reason I'm trying to learn to build Locks from scratch.
Best regards
Rolf
-
Jim,
I apologize if I missed your response earlier, but I’m still wondering if a couple of your new locks will be available for folks to handle during the upcoming NMLRA matches at Friendship.
Thank you.
-
Jim,
Sir, this is without a doubt a beautiful lock. Well done!
When I will be working on my next rifle build project, this is the lock I will be purchasing.
Walk
-
Thanks Jim,
I'll agree on the call to go stay with a cast cock & frizzen. They are probably the 2 hardest/most costly parts to machine and the least in need of the precision.
-
The more Jim makes in house the better it gets. He is the among best right already. Hopefully he can carry the torch for the older generation. While doing so he will improve industry quality dramatically. When Jim makes a new kit will always buy some examples. His products are so much better than, almost everyone else, that the comparison is not fair.
This is not to say that some others are not good enough and can not be made into a fine rifle. Just that most of the offerings feature junky castings that sloppily assembled by uncaring wage labor. I have had enough fun trying to make such stuff work properly. I see lots of shooters who are happy with very low quality guns that are not reliable and don't last. They are often befuddled when I explain why I can not fix their problem in a reasonable time frame and at an affordable price.
The high end market is small. Hopefully Jim gets enough market share. Hopefully enough knowledgeable folks appreciate Jim's products enough to support his efforts by buying them.
Added later: My post has rambled, I had another thought. Making high quality mass produced locks and triggers that can compare to the best hand made items is an amazing bit of progress. Making them at a competitive price is a game changer.
-
Jim... thanks for the shouldered sear screw and bridal pins. Outstanding!
+1 for a late English style lock. "V" shaped waterproof pan... double-throated cock... and maybe also a percussion version.
-
That is beautiful work Jim.
Whoever is doing your photography is also to be commended. That photo of the engraved lock looks like art to my eye.
God Bless, Marc
-
Thank you all so much. We try very hard and it's good to know it's appreciated. Katherine does the photography. Thanks for noticing her great work! She really doesn't get enough credit. I take care of making stuff, but she basically does EVERYTHING else with the business. We make a pretty good team!
Nope, we won't be at Friendship. We'll probably be doing some more shows next year to show our new products.
If, I've missed any questions, just let me know.
All the best,
Jim
-
I'd put in another vote for a late English flintlock. I'll be the first in line with money in hand. :)