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General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: WadePatton on September 13, 2019, 05:06:41 AM

Title: Southern Fowler re-visited.
Post by: WadePatton on September 13, 2019, 05:06:41 AM
I got interested in Fowlers recently and was expanding my knowledge with the fine base of knowledge we have here, but then I ran into this MOST interesting gun owned by Dick, (Mr no gold) at one time. He posted pics but they're all fuzzed out as I view them--a Photobucket thing I do believe.  (JTR posted them in his stead)

This particular gun I find very interesting and was hoping to see some better pics.  I've PM'ed Dick (to no response-but only one day has passed) but thought that maybe someone else has good copies of those pics or that maybe he sold the gun and the new owner is also one of us, or would share some fresh images. 
 
Buehler?  Anybody?  Here's the thread:  (thanks in advance for any leads at all)


http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=6257.0
Title: Re: Southern Fowler re-visited.
Post by: Bob McBride on September 13, 2019, 05:09:55 AM
Hey Wade, if you click the pic and download it to your computer/iPad or whatever it’ll download full resolution.
Title: Re: Southern Fowler re-visited.
Post by: WadePatton on September 13, 2019, 05:15:07 AM
Well that's about ignant...happy to never have been their client.  Thanks

Here's one:
 

(https://i.ibb.co/Nrfx6sj/Southern-Fowlertest.jpg) (https://ibb.co/68GYRmP)


I'll pull the rest. Wonder if it ever got re-converted.
Title: Re: Southern Fowler re-visited.
Post by: Bob McBride on September 13, 2019, 05:20:54 AM
I didn’t know it would work that way but when I read your post It occurred to me to try it. I’ve looked at those old posts with no thought that I could download them and get full resolution. I’m not sure many other people know it because I’ve read posts where people were complaining about the old photobucket pics blurred. I guess I’ll post a thread about it in ‘OTBF’.
Title: Re: Southern Fowler re-visited.
Post by: mr. no gold on September 13, 2019, 06:25:01 AM
Glad that you got it fellows. Not too sure that I could help you much. I wan't sure that  this was the correct gun, but it is. Tanselman pegged a similar piece as being a Bearden gun from the Tn/Ky border, and that works for me. Barrel is about 48 inches long with one wedding ring and is .69 caliber, mas o menus. Top flat is marked 'f. B' and has chicken track engraving. I assume that this is the piece in question tho I do have an 'M. Sheets' marked smooth gun too. It apppears to have a resused Scottish barrel with flared muzzle, and two wedding rings. These are the only two southern smooth guns I have seen, or had the chance to buy. There must be many more out there; odds of my finding the only two are pretty astronomical.
Will post some new photos soon of this one and the VA gun. Thank you for your interest.
Okay here is an update: yes the gun has been reconverted using a fine English lock that dropped into the mortise like it had been there all along. I am not a big reconversion fan
but the 'too big' percussion lock tended toward the obscene, so reconverting it made sense.

Dick
Title: Re: Southern Fowler re-visited.
Post by: WadePatton on September 13, 2019, 05:08:38 PM
Thank you sir.  Absolutely interested in seeing more of both of your guns, especially with a proper lock on the "fB".  I'll keep an eye out.
Title: Re: Southern Fowler re-visited.
Post by: WadePatton on September 15, 2019, 05:57:15 PM
Quote from: mr. no gold on September 13, 2019, 06:25:01 AM
Glad that you got it fellows. ... These are the only two southern smooth guns I have seen, or had the chance to buy. There must be many more out there; odds of my finding the only two are pretty astronomical.
Will post some new photos soon of this one and the VA gun. Thank you for your interest.
...
Dick

Well if I'm going to have a smoothie, I gotta make a smoothie and if I'm going to make a smoothie-it may as well be Southern.  I'm here to find all the examples I possibly can.  Just the two is amazing.  I'll be "on alert" for them forevermore it seems.  Scarcity makes things interesting. Hope we can find another one or two of this sort of rare one.

I'm only collecting images and ideas.  thanks.
Title: Re: Southern Fowler re-visited.
Post by: Robby on September 15, 2019, 09:57:08 PM
Wade, This book has many southern fowlers in it.
https://www.amazon.com/s?k=flintlock+fowlers&i=stripbooks&hvadid=77996638329812&hvbmt=bp&hvdev=c&hvqmt=p&tag=mh0b-20&ref=pd_sl_6izb4zf5jp_p
I have a copy and they are very nice guns.
Robby
Title: Re: Southern Fowler re-visited.
Post by: Bob McBride on September 16, 2019, 12:45:10 AM
Quote from: WadePatton on September 15, 2019, 05:57:15 PM
Quote from: mr. no gold on September 13, 2019, 06:25:01 AM
Glad that you got it fellows. ... These are the only two southern smooth guns I have seen, or had the chance to buy. There must be many more out there; odds of my finding the only two are pretty astronomical.
Will post some new photos soon of this one and the VA gun. Thank you for your interest.
...
Dick

Well if I'm going to have a smoothie, I gotta make a smoothie and if I'm going to make a smoothie-it may as well be Southern.  I'm here to find all the examples I possibly can.  Just the two is amazing.  I'll be "on alert" for them forevermore it seems.  Scarcity makes things interesting. Hope we can find another one or two of this sort of rare one.

I'm only collecting images and ideas.  thanks.

Wade, if you find anything of interest let me know. I’m planning the same. I’ll be doing a Fowler this winter and plan on a southern. Sure wish there was a Cannon County school...
Title: Re: Southern Fowler re-visited.
Post by: WadePatton on September 16, 2019, 03:25:49 AM
Quote from: Bob McBride on September 16, 2019, 12:45:10 AM
...

Wade, if you find anything of interest let me know. I’m planning the same. I’ll be doing a Fowler this winter and plan on a southern. Sure wish there was a Cannon County school...

Maybe they'll call us a school some day.  It is "Shotgun" county already. 

I think I dug up some a reference to wartime gun maker/shop on this side of the co., but I've found nothing earlier.
Title: Re: Southern Fowler re-visited.
Post by: WadePatton on September 16, 2019, 03:32:33 AM
Quote from: Robby on September 15, 2019, 09:57:08 PM
Wade, This book has many southern fowlers in it.
https://www.amazon.com/s?k=flintlock+fowlers&i=stripbooks&hvadid=77996638329812&hvbmt=bp&hvdev=c&hvqmt=p&tag=mh0b-20&ref=pd_sl_6izb4zf5jp_p
I have a copy and they are very nice guns.
Robby

Thanks Robbie, I'll get one of those when I can.
Title: Re: Southern Fowler re-visited.
Post by: Elnathan on September 16, 2019, 01:47:51 PM
Quote from: Robby on September 15, 2019, 09:57:08 PM
Wade, This book has many southern fowlers in it.
https://www.amazon.com/s?k=flintlock+fowlers&i=stripbooks&hvadid=77996638329812&hvbmt=bp&hvdev=c&hvqmt=p&tag=mh0b-20&ref=pd_sl_6izb4zf5jp_p
I have a copy and they are very nice guns.
Robby

Are you sure you got the right book? I don't recall Grinslade's book as having anything south of PA in it.
Title: Re: Southern Fowler re-visited.
Post by: Robby on September 16, 2019, 03:43:36 PM

(https://i.ibb.co/vHwBybQ/IMG-0160.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7XYzMHR)
Title: Re: Southern Fowler re-visited.
Post by: rich pierce on September 16, 2019, 03:54:47 PM
That’s a Fainot fowler. Lancaster Pennsylvania.
Title: Re: Southern Fowler re-visited.
Post by: Robby on September 16, 2019, 07:04:49 PM
Yes it is rich, maybe the author was using the generic term 'Kentucky'. I hadn't really perused that section of the book, but from what I do now see, most makers are known Pennsylvanian smiths. Never the less, they are some beautiful fowlers with fine graceful lines that look American.
Robby
Title: Re: Southern Fowler re-visited.
Post by: WadePatton on September 21, 2019, 05:59:17 PM
So Dick has the only two extant surviving Southern Fowlers?    Rare indeed, that bird. 

Can you guys help guess the vintage of this critter? The percussion lock is not original in case you missed that detail-has English lock on it now.


images updated from old post mentioned above, for those who haven't looked or don't care jump through the PB hoops to get a decent image:

mr. no gold's images (before reconversion) 

(https://i.ibb.co/KrNtFsj/New-Image2a-Medium.png) (https://ibb.co/YLD5pd7)

(https://i.ibb.co/5WNLkXw/New-Image3a-Medium.png) (https://imgbb.com/)

(https://i.ibb.co/8cFwpQN/New-Image9a-Medium.png) (https://ibb.co/nChyvK6)

(https://i.ibb.co/KDpTxYc/New-Image7a-Medium.png) (https://ibb.co/W04mvQN)

(https://i.ibb.co/1b1D84p/New-Image5a-Medium.png) (https://ibb.co/zNpyGtL)

(https://i.ibb.co/BTht4b4/New-Image4a-Medium.png) (https://ibb.co/1RCLs1s)

(https://i.ibb.co/qYYNW4P/New-Image1a-Medium.png) (https://ibb.co/HTTtxMk)
Title: Re: Southern Fowler re-visited.
Post by: WadePatton on September 21, 2019, 06:06:27 PM
I'm unfamiliar with that sort of guard.
Title: Re: Southern Fowler re-visited.
Post by: mr. no gold on September 21, 2019, 09:27:52 PM
As you can see by the photographs, the percussion lock was far and away too large for the gun. In, fact it was hardly inleted at all. They may have used a large lock so that the hammer would have sufficient reach over to the tube. It looks okay in the photos, but in hand it is pretty obnoxious. I have sent some updated photos to Mark Elliott and he may elect to post them here. As I have said I am not a big fan of reconversion, but there was this pretty English lock...
Gun looks much better now.
Dick
Title: Re: Southern Fowler re-visited.
Post by: Elnathan on September 22, 2019, 10:19:05 PM
Quote
images updated from old post mentioned above, for those who haven't looked or don't care jump through the PB hoops to get a decent image:

Thanks for that. I couldn't get the old pics to work.
Title: Re: Southern Fowler re-visited.
Post by: WadePatton on September 23, 2019, 04:49:37 AM
Quote from: Elnathan on September 22, 2019, 10:19:05 PM
Quote
images updated from old post mentioned above, for those who haven't looked or don't care jump through the PB hoops to get a decent image:

Thanks for that. I couldn't get the old pics to work.

It's a "work around" where you download the pics and they come out with resolution restored. Someone here just told me about it. All of those I downloaded for my "file" for reference and then re-uploaded here to save others the hassle, hoping to shake another one or two similar guns out of the trees somewhere, anywhere?


Dick, how long is the octagonal bbl section and is it similar in bbl shape to typical OTR types? I've not long studied Fowlers of any school, but am learning. thanks.
Title: Re: Southern Fowler re-visited.
Post by: mr. no gold on September 23, 2019, 05:47:27 AM
Hey Wade,

The total, barrel length is 48 inches and change. Don't remember exactly. The octagonal portion is 15 inches long. It then transitions into full round with a nice wedding ring. Breech is somewhat thick, but then tapers forward toward the flared muzzle.       
All furniture is brass, and has some engraving, by the way. The flintlock looks really nice and is an original lock. Since it dropped right into the original cavity with only some minor wood replacement on the surrounds, this one must very close to the original. 
Thank you for your interest.

Dick

**Here are a few more photos of the lock area***

(https://i.ibb.co/n6FQ6Zm/IMG-1188.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rFV5FT0)

(https://i.ibb.co/wSxXDWN/IMG-1189.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jy127Mv)

(https://i.ibb.co/8DP31xN/IMG-1190.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nsQ2x16)
Title: Re: Southern Fowler re-visited.
Post by: wildcatter on September 25, 2019, 03:16:14 AM
Dick,

I'm curious as to the type of wood you think the stock is made from? Looking at the last couple of pictures you posted makes me think something other than maple but I could be seeing it wrong. The front end of that trigger guard is very interesting!

Matt
Title: Re: Southern Fowler re-visited.
Post by: mr. no gold on September 25, 2019, 07:18:09 AM
Matt, far as I know, (I'm no wood expert) the stock is maple with somewhat pronounced stripes and a general maple color where it has lost finish.
The triggerguard has a kind of an Allentown look to it with that front lug, though it is pure South. It is a nice brass casting and it holds nicely.
Dick
Title: Re: Southern Fowler re-visited.
Post by: WESTbury on September 25, 2019, 02:41:46 PM
Wade,

It is a very nice fowler, with a great long graceful look to it.

I've been looking for a nice New England fowler to match my N.E. Rifle. There are elusive. For the time being, I have to be satisfied with those that are in Tom Grinslade's outstanding book.

Title: Re: Southern Fowler re-visited.
Post by: LynnC on September 25, 2019, 08:06:45 PM
Wow. Has it been 10 years since that first thread.

My how time flies and in all that time Ive seen a number of old fowling pieces in Miss and Ala but none that really spoke southern to me. Mostly English and Belgium imports.

But I keep looking.......Lynn
Title: Re: Southern Fowler re-visited.
Post by: mr. no gold on September 25, 2019, 09:35:15 PM
Lynn, has it really been a decade since those photos were posted? That must mean that I have had it for almost 15 years. Guess that I don't do things in a hurry.
WB, you are going to have to go some to find a NE fowler that will match up with your elegant New England rifle. That one is almost a 'one gun collection.'
Dick
Title: Re: Southern Fowler re-visited.
Post by: WadePatton on September 26, 2019, 01:22:27 AM


Dick, I may want to copy yours, just as Nordnecker did for his VA fowler that I just learned of today-Something old something new thread  http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=54410.msg544472#msg544472). 

I'm not in "collecting mode" yet.  But I look mostly at originals now, unlike when I first got interested.

Title: Re: Southern Fowler re-visited.
Post by: mr. no gold on September 26, 2019, 03:19:02 AM
Those are two nice fowlers, the old and the new. Any indication as to who made the original? Neither are too much like the VA piece that I have. It has a walnut stock and a cheekrest. Since it apparently shows reuse of a Scottish(?) barrel, the length is a little short, about 42 inches, as I recall. And nothing at all fancy about it. Only really good things about it besides the unusual barrel are the 'M. Sheetz' lock and a nice side plate.
Photos one day soon, I promise.
Dick
Title: Re: Southern Fowler re-visited.
Post by: WadePatton on September 26, 2019, 04:39:51 PM
Quote from: mr. no gold on September 26, 2019, 03:19:02 AM
Those are two nice fowlers, the old and the new. Any indication as to who made the original? ...
Dick

It's signed  S Lauck  .  I understand that he was a well-known VA maker.
Title: Re: Southern Fowler re-visited.
Post by: WadePatton on November 17, 2019, 06:15:33 PM
More photos did you say Dick?

just a reminder.
Title: Re: Southern Fowler re-visited.
Post by: flinchrocket on November 17, 2019, 10:07:36 PM
Quote from: WadePatton on September 21, 2019, 06:06:27 PM
I'm unfamiliar with that sort of guard.
The triggerguard has some resemblance to the Jacob Young rifle pictured on the MESDA website.
Title: Re: Southern Fowler re-visited.
Post by: mr. no gold on November 18, 2019, 12:25:21 AM
Bear with me friends. I plan to get some photos of this gun, the VA gun and a few other things, but it may be a month or so. If you want numbers, I can get those for you too. I am pleased that you find these guns to be appealing. Thank you.
Dick 
Title: Re: Southern Fowler re-visited.
Post by: WadePatton on November 18, 2019, 02:59:55 AM
Quote from: mr. no gold on November 18, 2019, 12:25:21 AM
Bear with me friends. I plan to get some photos of this gun, the VA gun and a few other things, but it may be a month or so. If you want numbers, I can get those for you too. I am pleased that you find these guns to be appealing. Thank you.
Dick

No rush at all, but I think I shall make something very strongly resembling your original Southern Fowler. I'm only uncertain what I'll do with the guard and trigger(s!).  And have some other ideas but don't want to get too "imaginary" with it.  Plausible, yeah that's the ticket.  Want to keep it quite plausible. 

But if I'm shooting it, will be heaving single balls as much as shot, oh but the dove shoot.  Oh boy that'll be fun!
Title: Re: Southern Fowler re-visited.
Post by: Cajun72 on November 26, 2019, 09:50:35 AM
nice Fowler's will have to get a copy of the book as well