AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: mountainman70 on September 13, 2019, 09:51:31 PM
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I was asked this question by some guys that want to know. I would not,personally ,even think about this, but some do, I suppose'
Are Green Mtn 1" x 30" x 54 cal slow twist,,breeched with L&R patent breech, strong enough to handle 150 grain loads of substitute black powder, with a belted ball/ bullet ?
These fellows hunt bear and other big critters with muzzleloaders.
Whaddaya think?
Thanks, dave F 8) 8)
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Personally, if I wanted to shoot that load, I would prove the barrel with a 250 grain load and a long string tied around my finger. Regardless of what any consensus might be.
In the end, there’s only one way to know for sure.
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That is what I would call, “Fire on one end, fool on t’other” if the person asking was someone I could mess with a bit. I don’t think there’s much to be gained over 100-120 grains.
I’m not sure why people think it’s super hard to kill black bears. From what I hear it’s not much different from killing deer.
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There are a couple of things that make me wonder here.
I tend to think of slow twist as a roundball barrel.
I am not sure why anyone would want to use barrel-ruining fake blackpowder.
What would you need a charge that heavy? A roundball with a much lower charge will penetrate and kill just fine.
Seems like an odd scenario, with potential for unhappiness, for little gain.
Just the way I see it from what was posted. I guess I am old enough and crotchety enough to not be impressed by people overloading guns.
The one good thing I see is that GM barrel. They make some good shooting barrels. Not sure about once they get exposed to corrosive fake powder.
God Bless, Marc
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That is what I would call, “Fire on one end, fool on t’other” if the person asking was someone I could mess with a bit. I don’t think there’s much to be gained over 100-120 grains.
I’m not sure why people think it’s super hard to kill black bears. From what I hear it’s not much different from killing deer.
The only difference is the deer won't eat you. :)
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I well remember the 60s- 70s Magnumitis that was so prevalent in the Gun Press. Seems like all the writers "in the know" right, had the opinion all black powder rifles had to be shot with 130 plus gr loads, and a maxi or mini projectile. Dang, them things hurt when ya touched her off.
My 62 Saml Hwken doesn't hurt that much with 120 and a good ol round ball.
One of the guys claimed a slow twist barrel with that loading shot flat out to 200 yds.
I have no experience with this scenario. Maybe it do, maybe it don't.
I don't know. he also dislikes that Corrosive black powder,too much trouble to clean,wheras with the substitute, al he has to do is run a brush down the bore.
Not sure I would be comfortable on the same range. Thanks for the replies so far. keep em coming Thanks, dave 8) 8)
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What do you think,Pete? You hunt the bigguns
Thanks dave
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The subject asking the question just needs some education. The load he is proposing is completely unnecessary. He is limited to one shot. So he must be guaranteed in his own mind that he can make a fatal shot- one shot! The .54 cal round ball and 90 gr. of BLACK POWDER will shoot completely through a bear. But the ball must pass through vital organs, or else it is not going to kill. It doesn't matter how much more lead or powder he uses if he cannot be sure of his shot. The load he proposes will have formidable recoil. Knowing that, he will almost certainly flinch and miss, whereas with the pleasant shooting BP load, he is less likely to miss. There is nothing difficult about cleaning a rifle when BLack powder is used. The same cannot be said for substitutes. Since he is asking questions, he wants to learn...so teach him.
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I was asked this question by some guys that want to know. I would not,personally ,even think about this, but some do, I suppose'
Are Green Mtn 1" x 30" x 54 cal slow twist,,breeched with L&R patent breech, strong enough to handle 150 grain loads of substitute black powder, with a belted ball/ bullet ?
These fellows hunt bear and other big critters with muzzleloaders.
Whaddaya think?
Thanks, dave F 8) 8)
Hi Dave: my thoughts.
1st off, I expect the reason for the question about 150gr. powder charge is the use of 3, 50gr. compressed plugs of phony bp.
I'm with the other guys. I think it is foolish to attempt. Pressures skyrocket with such loads. A standard HEAVY load for a patched round ball, last stats I saw, developed in the vicinity of
15,000PSI.
One of the reloading companies (Accurate Arms) printed a whack of data years ago, about BP ctg.'s and the pressures THEY generated with standard loads, with what appeared to be
similar loads (70 to 120gr.) only with bullets, not patched round balls.
The 70gr charge developed 22,000psi while the 120gr. load, same bullet, developed 30,000psi.
This alone should make them re-consider their folly. Bulleted loads are hard on nipples and flintlock vents due to burnout. Neither of these were designed for high pressure bulleted charges
yet they last for years with normal charges and round balls due to the GREATLY lowered pressures.
If they don't think a round ball is powerful enough - they have not hunted with one &/or are listening to people who know not of what they are writing/speaking.
Round ball rifles dominated the large dangerous game hunting for over a century, until breech loading guns were invented. Even a .45 or .50 RB rifle will kill moose and elk reliably, if planted in the
right spot.
A .54 is much more than necessary for hunting, killing black bears. On the other hand, to hunt grizzly I would not consider with less than a 20 bore rifle, and preferably with a 16 bore or larger.
Bob-in-the-woods, 10 bore sounds about right.
Samuel Baker (of Africa and India) - "I had a conical mould made for this rifle.............but instead of rendering it more invincible, it entirely destroyed it's efficacy, and brought me into such
scrapes that I at length fave up the conical ball as useless."
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If this crosses the line rules wise, my apologies.
Coincidently, today I witnessed something at the range that tops the belted ball/substitute powder scenario. a gent was using the type of powder used by the Spanish in Cuba in a TC product that has, shall we say a modern ignition system. He claimed that he "knew a guy that had worked for TC" who told him that his rifle could handle it. I was glad to be three benches down from him, with screens next to each bench. I probably should have told the range officer but that could have erupted into something heated, and I know he has next to no knowledge of black powder and muzzleloading. I've never seen another guy shoot BP at this range. I warned the guy and walked away. Strangely enough, the guy next to him heard the whole conversation and wasn't bothered at all.
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If this crosses the line rules wise, my apologies.
Coincidently, today I witness something at the range that tops the belted ball/substitute powder scenario. a gent was using the type of powder used by the Spanish in Cuba in a TC product that has, shall we say a modern ignition system. He claimed that he "knew a guy that had worked for TC" who told him that his rifle could handle it. I was glad to be three benches down from him, with screens next to each bench. I probably should have told the range officer but that could have erupted into something heated, and I know he has next to no knowledge of black powder and muzzleloading. I've never seen another guy shoot BP at this range. I warned the guy and walked away. Strangely enough, the guy next to him heard the whole conversation and wasn't bothered at all.
Wow. That’s the reason I do all my shootin’ on the farm. I’m the only idiot I have to worry about. :o
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What do you think,Pete? You hunt the bigguns
Thanks dave
Big guns? Not me, unless you think a .54 PRB with 80gr is a big gun.
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If this crosses the line rules wise, my apologies.
Coincidently, today I witness something at the range that tops the belted ball/substitute powder scenario. a gent was using the type of powder used by the Spanish in Cuba in a TC product that has, shall we say a modern ignition system. He claimed that he "knew a guy that had worked for TC" who told him that his rifle could handle it. I was glad to be three benches down from him, with screens next to each bench. I probably should have told the range officer but that could have erupted into something heated, and I know he has next to no knowledge of black powder and muzzleloading. I've never seen another guy shoot BP at this range. I warned the guy and walked away. Strangely enough, the guy next to him heard the whole conversation and wasn't bothered at all.
Wow. That’s the reason I do all my shootin’ on the farm. I’m the only idiot I have to worry about. :o
Tomorrow I go to shoot with my friends with the French Broad Rifles in Asheville, NC. The real deal, keeping the tradition alive. Having moved down from NJ, I'm very fortunate to have found this club.
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Pete, I meant the big critters. You think the loading in question is stupid or useful? Thanks, dave 8) 8)
Our club has a couple guys that shoot long range, and use the substitute powder.
I would be more concerned with breech pressure than recoil,tho I wouldn't want to shoot that load.But I don't hunt anymore, and never anything dangerous.
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That much even worthless fake powder won’t burn completely in a thirty inch barrel. As was stated, a slow twist barrel, and a conical bullet are not a wise combination either. So, it seems this is one stupid choice being used to counteract another stupid choice. So, why not go with a hundred grains of 2 F, a patched round ball, and trying not to shoot it in the butt.
Hungry Horse
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I have shot a lot of black bears. Some with a ,54 rifle , or a 20 bore gun ; many with the 10 bore Chambers New England fowling gun. None of the bears were more than 50 yards away , and most were 25 yards or less. I have never recovered a ball from a bear. Never. I have found a smoking ball still wrapped in the paper cartridge imbedded in a hill after passing through the chest, lungs and heart of a really big ,old bear. That load was 120 gr FFg and a .715 ball .. The .54 used 80 gr FFg and a .535 ball. If you do the math and work out the foot pounds of "power/ energy" of these loads, it's not all that much, and yet they are deadly on game. If the fellow wants more "power" then it's better to go bigger than up the charge and use a bullet. The upper load for me in the 10 bore is 140 gr FFg and that is for a flatter trajectory only, not to increase lethality. Pressures are still fairly low , even with the 140 gr load because of the large bore.
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I would have to look (dig out my GM owners manual-tomorrow if you need the for sure info) but I believe 120 gr of 2fg is listed as maximum with the .535 prb. I have the GM IBS barrel. I believe it is 32” 1:70 twist percussion. I would tell them that they cannot shoot those volumes safely personally.
Walk
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In 1976 I bought a TC Renegade in .54 caliber. Packaged in the box was a neat little book that told you all about loading, shooting and cleaning blackpowder weapons. It also had a load table. The maximum load was 120 gr. 2fg and if memory serves me that generated 2100 fps or so, out of a 26" barrel. Positive thinking.....
Anyway I took that little book as the bible and hunted with 120 grains of 2fg for several years. Let me tell you it was punishing in that light rifle. Every shot I could feel my forehead getting speckled by pieces of cap and powder. I made some spectacular kills but it was fast becoming not fun anymore, so I cut back to 110 grains of 2f for my hunting load. It made the rifle easier to shoot and still killed them just as dead.
Things have changed since back then. Now I only shoot flintlocks. I have shot deer with a low charge of 65 grains of 3f to my regular load of 80 grains 3f and I can't say I can tell the difference. Gun goes boom, deer either falls dead or runs a short distance, same distance regardless of charge. Maybe if I ever get that elk tag I'll work up a 100 grain load, maybe not.
Back then when the fake powder stuff first hit the market with claims of no cleaning etc. I bought a pound and tryed it. It shot alright but I liked my real black best. I forgot to clean my rifle for a few days and it rusted. I never shot any of that stuff again. Then the plant blew up and made it a moot point.
Just a little stroll down memory lane.......
A young darkhorse and a Thanksgiving morning buck from years ago.
(https://i.ibb.co/1zM2P85/TC-Renegade-150-1091-Pixels-723x1024.jpg)
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Pete, I meant the big critters. You think the loading in question is stupid or useful? Thanks, dave 8) 8)
Our club has a couple guys that shoot long range, and use the substitute powder.
I would be more concerned with breech pressure than recoil,tho I wouldn't want to shoot that load.But I don't hunt anymore, and never anything dangerous.
I'm not sure what you mean by the big stuff? Are you talking about Grizzlies? I used my load of 80gr of Swiss powder with a .54 PRB for elk, black bear, and muley bucks.
I'd only hunt for a grizz with a CF gun.
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Thanks to all. These guys are so all knowing there isn't much use to try to tell them otherwise. One of those just walk away from conversations.
Best regards to all and thanks. Dave F 8) 8)
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Reminds me of a fellow named Darwin.
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Just remember the folks that can’t be educated often are the ones that get someone else hurt. Unless you’re related to them, I’d avoid them like the plague.
Hungry Horse
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I've killed lots of deer with charges of 65 grains up to 100 grains. I even killed one deer with 110 grains - notice that's only one. I'm unlikely to ever use more than about 70 to 75 grains in any deer/bear hunt.
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In the words of a wise man:
"You can always tell a moron you just can't tell them much".
The "Muskrat" has spoken
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Pretty sure that Green Mountain would not endorse that load combination
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Well, proved it again today. 7:00 PM , Black bear , 10 yards, .54 cal .535 ball over 80 gr FFg Went clean through lungs and heart.
Nice clean male bush bear : around 250 Lbs He kicked twice and dropped. I just got in from hanging him in the meat tree . You don't need 150 gr of powder 8)
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Pressure issues aside, is a 30" barrel long enough to completely burn 150 grains of powder? Wouldn't you just be pushing unburned powder out the muzzle behind the ball?
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Absolutely - 150gr. of powder - all of it will burn/ignite inside the 30" barrel AND produce it's peak pressure very near the breech, however that pressure will not have long
(because of short barrel) period of time to generate additional velocity to the projectile over what would be generated by a smaller charge.
for example:
The 31" bl. in my 14 bore rifle burnt all of 200gr. 2F as well as 330gr. of 2F, however the 330gr. charge produced only 70fps higher velocity than the 200gr. load. That happened
more than 20 years ago, yet I remember the recoil of that load quite clearly.
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Daryl,
Thanks for that explanation.
Cheers
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hello guys, I was just going to ask Daryl what kinda elephant he was shootin at with those kinda charges. Maybe it was back in the day when we all thought, or were told in the gun press, we HAD to shoot full charges at everything, you know, paper targets ar a might hard to kill.
Them steel silouettes really travel when hit by that kinda force. Get wore plum out retrieving them.hahah
Hava goodun,and thanks, Dave 8) 8)
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Dave: you have made a very astute observation. When I was thirty, I was convinced that I needed minimum 120 gr. FFg in a .50 cal to get optimum performance, ie: accuracy and knock down power. Now I shoot 73 gr. in my .50's, and when I was living on the Queen Charlotte Islands, now called Haida Guaii, I killed dozens of Island deer and many black bears with 70 gr. FFg in a .50 cal T/C "Hawken". All one shot DRT.
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Maybe the rules of ballistics change when you cross over into Canada. I thought I would be smart at a night time candle shoot years ago. I loaded my old 50 caliber CVA mountain rifle with a hundred and twenty grains of powder and a tight patched ball, and intentionally shot an inch or two over the candle flame. The candle was about fifteen yards down range. At the shot the candle was extinguished by the muzzle blast, but the candle was impregnated with grains of unturned powder, so the charge did not burn completely even in a 32” barrel.
Hungry Horse
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Just a observation I done some shooting thru a Chronograph for bench guns and cross stick matches and mostly just checking Deviation of FPS.
Its really interesting to see FPS increases with grain increase up to a certain point around 1900 fps. Most guns in alot of ways "peek out" . I think patching is critical or lack of it's strength to be more specific,
I can tell you for sure that how hard you SEAT the ball on top of the powder matters alot! especially in a .40 cal I've seen 200 fps difference in weighed powder charges with nothing changed except seating pressure.
I do know alot of fellows who shoot bench , and have a friend who shoots .65cal with a 3" dia S.S barrel and 270 grains of fff he claims hes getting 2500fps I just said ok, ( but I would like to see it to believe it.)
I shot a little .50cal huntin type gun with 65g fff (teflon Patching) and shot a 49x at 50yd and a 48xx at 100yd and my gun weighs just under 9lbs. not 45lbs.
The small caliber guns seem to be harder to get over 2000 fps than the big ones.
I had a.40cal that no matter how much powder over 60gr fff it would shoot only about 1880fps.
it had a 38" barrel.
I Guess what I want to see is the CHRONOGRAPH and powder charges.
Im a "see it to believe it "guy i guess
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Maybe the rules of ballistics change when you cross over into Canada. I thought I would be smart at a night time candle shoot years ago. I loaded my old 50 caliber CVA mountain rifle with a hundred and twenty grains of powder and a tight patched ball, and intentionally shot an inch or two over the candle flame. The candle was about fifteen yards down range. At the shot the candle was extinguished by the muzzle blast, but the candle was impregnated with grains of unturned powder, so the charge did not burn completely even in a 32” barrel.
Hungry Horse
The 330gr. charge was an error in loading - I was simply experimenting with load vs. velocity changes.
As to unburnt powder sticking into the candle - I'd have to see that for myself. Did you try igniting it, or simply think it was unburnt powder?