AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: johngross on October 13, 2019, 08:10:26 PM
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I came across this on another forum. Thought it might interest some of you folks since I know you may have fought in the battle. :)
Gun that fired the first shot at the Battle of Bunker Hill up for auction
https://news.justcollecting.com/gun-fired-first-shot-battle-bunker-hill-revolutionary-war-morphy-auction/?fbclid=IwAR1zvv-37_BFYP9VYdXOGhsIYo2ApSHxDCA0KcpDikk_svSUqB6al46Ztvc
(https://news.justcollecting.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/simpson-gun-3.jpg)
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I was too old at the time so they put me in the reserves.
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It's sad that it passing out of the original family's hands after all these years, but will no doubt make someone else's day!
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Dutch musket, possibly an early 18th century one that was reworked to conform with the new style of bands that was popularized by the French post-1763. While I'm sure that the musket belonged to John Simpson, I wonder if it isn't one he acquired a year or two later in the war after we began importing large numbers of such muskets for the Continentals, rather than the one he carried at Bunker Hill.
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I can't help but be very skeptical of family attributions. I have an acquaintance with a long family history in the colonies, Society of the Cincinnati, etc. all very, very well documented. A direct relative was on Bunker/Breed's Hill that day, again wonderfully documented and the family has a Bess claimed to have been used by said relative on the battlefield. While some of the parts are Rev War including the lock, peculiarities of the stock, barrel, other parts clearly indicate a 1790s period - likely a re-stocked and cobbled-together militia musket using many war-time Bess parts. I'll never tell.
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I became interested in the Rev War when I was ten years old living in Pittsburgh and watching Johnny Tremain and The Swamp Fox in the late 1950's. My mother bought me the American Heritage book on the Rev war. She also told me about our Rev War ancestor Jacob Becker aka General Becker of Pennsylvania.
Well it turns out that our ancestor Jacob Becker was indeed in the Rev War, as a private in Captain Christopher Folck's Pennsylvania Militia Company.
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Hi,
Yes these attributions are always suspect particularly after the forgeries marketed by Kimball Arms years ago. However, this musket is plausible. I agree that it may be Dutch but the style looks right for the Rev War period and colonists had Dutch imports going back decades before the war.
dave
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Hi,
Yes these attributions are always suspect particularly after the forgeries marketed by Kimball Arms years ago. However, this musket is plausible. I agree that it may be Dutch but the style looks right for the Rev War period and colonists had Dutch imports going back decades before the war.
dave
Dutch muskets were used all over the place all through the 18th century, and I don't find the idea of a Dutch musket per se at Bunker Hill the least bit implausible. It is just that this particular one is patterned after the 1763/66 Charlesville muskets, and it was my impression that the Dutch started reworking their old muskets into the new style for export when the Americans started buying muskets in large numbers and had become familiar with the newer French patterns. That would be in the 1777-80 period, a few years late for Bunker Hill.
I could be wrong about the timing of the rebuilding, but prior to the Revolution it seems unlikely that there was enough demand for arms that it would have been worthwhile for the Leige/Dutch arms merchants to convert older muskets to the newer pattern, and while colonial gunsmiths were familiar with banded barrels prior to the Revolution via captured French muskets from the French and Indian War I don't think that they really caught on until we started getting shipments of 1766 pattern muskets during the Revolution. So my guess is that this musket was issued to Simpson a year or more after Bunker Hill, and is the one he carried throughout most of the war. Still his, still a Revolutionary War gun, just not THAT one.
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This is a Dutch type III musket according to my quick research. The type III existed in that time period. I don't know if it is legit or not, and really don't care that much...BUT, it is more likely this musket was one of the batch bought by Franklin when he was searching for muskets in Europe for the cause. Tens of thousands of odd muskets came into this country from Europe, but not early on. It's possible it didn't even reach this country until after Bunker Hill.
It is a fine old gun with a fine story. As with all fine old guns with fine old stories there isn't anyway to prove the connection. What you're buying here is an old Dutch Type III musket that may have been used in the rev War.
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The New Hampshire Commission is probably worth more than the musket. That is real documentation.
The musket never the less is a historical piece, that may, as Mike points out, have been carried in the Rev War.
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Hi,
It is my understanding that the Dutch used convex shaped locks after 1760 or so. Between 1730 -1760 (approx) they usually used flat locks.
dave
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Hi,
It is my understanding that the Dutch used convex shaped locks after 1760 or so. Between 1730 -1760 (approx) they usually used flat locks.
dave
My understanding as well.
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If it's the one on the Morphy auction someone likes it to the current tune of $75,000.
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I re-read George's 2009 piece in the American Rifleman, which is available on-line. Morphy's "describer" needs to read it a little closer.
Does anybody know who Jonathan Holstein, author of the 50 page research pamphlet put together for the current owner, is? I put his name in Amazon's books and came up with a fellow that is an expert on quilts. Perhaps the Simpson family has a quilt used by John Simpson at Bunker Hill. Just a thought.
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The musket is now up to 100K! At least two people like it.
Al
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By the way, that reference in Morphy's write-up on Lot #2172, to an existing Type III Dutch Musket branded "CITY OF BOSTON" is quite amusing and is meaningless. Boston was officially known as "Town of Boston" until March 19, 1822 when the citizens of Boston accepted a charter to be incorporated as "City of Boston".
Facts can be annoying.
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By the way, that reference in Morphy's write-up on Lot #2172, to an existing Type III Dutch Musket branded "CITY OF BOSTON" is quite amusing and is meaningless. Boston was officially known as "Town of Boston" until March 19, 1822 when the citizens of Boston accepted a charter to be incorporated as "City of Boston".
Touche!
I suspect that Morphy's descriptions just parrot whatever the seller says. There is also a hum-drum pair of Ketland export pistols in that sale with an extremely fanciful description. The condition is very good but there is nothing about them that is terribly special and they definitely aren't "American Made in Ketland's Philadelphia Facility"...since no such facility ever existed.
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How does this auction operate? I saw the flyer which bills it as a two day auction, 10-22 and 10-23 yet when you go to the various pages on the website they show items reflecting "bids". Is ther any live bidding on site or is it just posted and the bidding ends at the close of the day 10-23?? I don't think I saw anything designated as "sold".
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I "watched" the live bidding for a while this morning. Bids were being placed by the floor and by internet bidding. Todays session was for lot numbers beginning with a "1".
Tomorrows bidding will be for lots beginning with a "2". Several of the longrifles realized pretty good numbers.
The final sales price will be published later. The only way to see what each lot sold for until the winning bids are published is to actually watch the auction in real time.
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To get the correct story about who may have fired the first shot in the area where Private Simpson was with John Stark's command, read pages 141 through 159 of Richard Ketchum's Decisive Day originally published in 1962. It was not Simpson, but a Lieutenant Dana with Knowlton command. Knowlton's troops were positioned to the right, looking toward the British line, of Stark's New Hampshire troops. Starks positioned his men, to include Private Simpson, immediately next to the Mystic River, not on Breed's Hill. The first shot in that area of the battle was possibly fired by Lt Dana of Knowlton's Connecticut troops.
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Hi Westbury,
You need to be careful of some things Ketchum wrote as well. I have all his books and read them multiple times. He is a good author but recited and perpetuated some famous Rev War stories promoted by early 19th century writers that were never well documented. A classic is the story of Timothy Murphy shooting his double barreled rifle to kill Fraser at Saratoga. It may have happened that way but there is no reliable source for it.
https://allthingsliberty.com/2013/03/the-myth-of-rifleman-timothy-murphy-and-the-power-of-the-written-word/
Moreover, the famous "double rifle used by Murphy to kill Fraser" in the Old Stone Fort Museum in NY is a complete mismatch for a Rev War period rifle.
(https://i.ibb.co/c1ScCkG/Murphy-s-rifle.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
dave
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I agree that when reading about events that took place centuries ago, you may not be getting the complete set of facts. This is probably especially true of battles where a great deal of confusion about time and details gets muddled.
https://allthingsliberty.com/2013/06/the-whites-of-their-eyes/
What we need is Mr. Peabody's Wave-Vac machine.
Was anyone watching the online auction to get a price for what this musket sold for?
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The musket and paper went for $400k.
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It appears that a 'good story' sells the merchandise far better than no story at all. I'm on the edge of my seat wondering what the 'Lion...' gun will fetch. Still and all, a good job by the auction house for the client.
Dick
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Yea, and tack on the 20% buyers premium Morphy charges and a whole lot of insurance.
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I specifically collect Rev War identified weapons. All my guns have a name on the them that identifies it as the one carried by that individual. After over 40 years of collecting I have seven guns. They are that rare. Can someone please tell me how a musket, with absolutely no connection to the Rev War, other than a family story, is worth 400K?
Al
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AL- I'm still trying to find out who Jonathan Holstein, the author of the 50 page book relating to all of this story, is.
As to the unmarked musket, I am reminded of the story told, by either Greg Martin or Norm Flayderman, about receiving a phone call from a nice lady that wanted to sell the family's Rev War musket. Upon arrival at the lady's house, either Greg or Norm asked to see the musket. She went to another room to get the Rev War musket and returned with a Model 1861 Springfield Rifle Musket.
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They are that rare. Can someone please tell me how a musket, with absolutely no connection to the Rev War, other than a family story, is worth 400K?
Al
Al,
That an easy question to answer, a person with lots of easily obtained money wanted one of those "They are that rare" muskets and was eager to trade $400,000 of his easily obtained money for that musket and story.
That's why when asking the value of some antique its a coin toss, who will be bidding and how well heeled they are and do they have a similiar well heeled person that wants the antique just as bad as the other person.
Dennis
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I think i'm whiffing the foul odor of jealousy here,,,,,
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Okay, link to WBUR News article on Simpson Musket.
https//www.wbur.org/news/2019/10/14/bunker-hill-musket-auction
link to Jonathan Holstein 50 page "book" about Simpson.
https//d279m997dpfwgl.cloudfront.net/wp/2019/10/Bunker-Hill-Musket-History.pdf
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I think i'm whiffing the foul odor of jealousy here,,,,,
Not on my part John, I am a tight wad and when something I want is sold for more than I am willing or unable to pay I say more power to them, I had my chance and chose to pass. Now I have been known to pay more than I wanted to and often was sorry later but it was my own fault and no one elses.
Dennis
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Anyone know what the rifle with the price ($18) engraved on the box lid brought? Last I saw the projections was $6000 to $12000 and it was standing at a bid if $6000. Sorry, cannot recall the name of the maker.
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Morphy has already posted the final sales prices. You should be able to find it.
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Anyone know what the rifle with the price ($18) engraved on the box lid brought? Last I saw the projections was $6000 to $12000 and it was standing at a bid if $6000. Sorry, cannot recall the name of the maker.
Not sure if you mean the Bucks County Rifle by Weiker. That went for $14k.
http://auctions.morphyauctions.com/lot-465791.aspx
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That's it. Pretty nice rifle and while I don't think it's in my budget I don't feel the price is all that bad. Lots of stuff out there in original longrifle land being offered for 2 or 3 time and not as nice IMO. Thanks.
Just a PS. I have not really studied the prices but on a rather superficial basis it seems that many did not make the pre-auction estimates. So what does that say about the market if it is a correct conclusion?
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I attended a local auction that was also online and though it had no spectacular longrifles the ones they had sold reasonable at 1/2 to 2/3 predicted price. Lots of unsigned later percussion longrifles going in the $350 to $600 range. I’ll be revising what I might offer for sort of generic longrifles.
Signed guns are always going to appeal more. At some auctions online there are mixes of everything with longrifles a small portion of the lot. There is much broader interest in more recent guns shall I say.
Historically significant guns span interests well beyond longrifle collectors and do attract the big money crowd.
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Probably 95% of the potential buyers have no objective way of assessing the story. Neither have they any first-hand experience with primary documentation so the holes in a so-called "professional" report will not be obvious. We see this every day. Collectors WANT TO BELIEVE...and thus are always fooling themselves.
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They are worth what the buyer will pay. Went to an auction looking at a specific rifle that "I" thought was worth in the $1,000 - 1,200 range. It passed that in 2 breaths and sold for $6,000. I asked the buyer what made it worth those numbers and he indicated he wasn't a collector but it was from his home town. Another auction had a pair of pistols mounted on a plaque with the builder's business card. Builder was from the 1860's period. Sold for almost 4 times the established value because the buyer's 10 year old son collected business cards. Go figure.
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Some years ago, I observed a factual mistake concerning a flintlock musket on the web-site of a noted researcher, author, and dealer. I contacted him by phone the next day and spoke with him at length. The mistake was acknowledged by the gentleman and he immediately followed by this uttering this statement: "I rely on potential customers not to have read the research."
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The concern with the idea that the item is "worth what the buyer will pay"--which I generally believe in as a principle--is that in so many of these cases the buyers are deciding what to pay based on inaccurate and sometimes invented information.
I purchase a lot of old postcards and, if I'm willing to pay $100 for a postcard, I agree that (as surprisingly as it is to some!) that postcard is worth $100. But if I learn that the postcard is a reproduction and sold as an original, it is not worth $100 and wasn't even though I paid that much. Deliberate fraud or even negligently inaccurate listings compromise the generally fair-enough principle that an item is "worth what the buyer will pay."
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If my information is correct, the 'Bunker Hill' musket is now in the ownership of the National Museum of Military Vehicles in Wyoming. If not on display now, it is supposed to be available for viewing soon.
Apparently this is a very unheralded museum with one of the largest collections of military vehicles and other items in the US. It is located on a large ranch and so there is a lot of territory to operate most, if not all the equipment.
The title for the 'first shot fired' at Bunlker Hill seems to have some other contenders. A Lt. Joseph Spaulding is also said to have done so, and there may have been more than one individual with that name on the Hill that day, so it becomes a bit muddled.
Dick
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Yesterday a man tried to sell me a patriotic silk sash. He had a story that the soldiers leaving Butler PA were given the sashes for their parade when they left
for the civil war. Quick research found the sash to be a Centennial celebration sash. I have to say it looked plausible to the story and was considering it.
Now I will consider it at a lower cost.
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I see that this Dutch Musket is now in Wyoming. It probably was not even that close to Bunker/Breed's Hill on June 17, 1775.
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Hi Guys,
While I too am very skeptical that the gun is the first to shoot at Bunker Hill, I have seen no evidence from any of you that it could not be. Some of you make statements of certainty that the gun was never used at BH and some say even the Rev War. What it your evidence for that? Based on my limited research into these Dutch muskets, the style of the gun is plausible for early in the war. Skepticism based on evidence is healthy, skepticism based on "gut feeling" is bias and most often wrong.
dave
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I agree with Smart dog on this.
John
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I agree with Smart dog on this.
John
I don't. Ben Franklin went to Europe during the war to scoop up all available muskets and this one fits the bill perfectly. The chances of this particular model of gun being here at the beginning of the war is pretty slim. Towards the middle or end of the war is probably when this musket arrived in North America. Family stories have a habit of being "generally true" but not "specifically true". Mark me down as a doubter on this one, too good a story to be true. I have no definitive proof. Neither do the people who promote this as the "fist shot musket". My assumption is probably more likely.
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The problem with "Dutch" muskets is that it appears to have been a generic term to differentiate muskets purchased by Britain from muskets made under the Ordnance System ie. The Kings Pattern aka The Brown Bess. The Brits purchased many thousands of "Dutch" muskets (also barrels) in 1706, 1715, 1741, and 1745. These were iron mounted and brass mounted with pinned 45" barrels.
There are two documented Dutch muskets marked for the colony of South Carolina one is brass mounted with a 46" barrel. See pgs 149-160 of the book Of Sorts For Provincials.
The colonial governments of Rhode Island, Massachusetts Bay, and New Hampshire are documented as receiving in 1757, Land Service Muskets of the King's Pattern again the Long Land Brown Bess. See pgs 145-148 of the book mentioned above. Interestingly, Private Simpson of Bunker Hill fame was with John Stark's New Hampshire troops on June 17, 1775.
To further stir the pot, during the Federal Period, the U.S. purchased so-called "Dutch" from the Low Countries, muskets which were shipped from Hamburg. Some may have been Dutch Type IV muskets. Also, many Dutch muskets were sold on the open market in New York and Boston in the early 1800's. per George Moller American Military Shoulder Arms, Vol. II pgs 6-9.
Finally, very good friend of mine that belongs, ASAC states that Moller gave a presentation during which the subject of Dutch flintlock muskets came up, he was quite adamant that, in his opinion, none of the extant brass banded Dutch muskets were here during the Rev War. Don't know how much credence to put in that statement but his reputation as a researcher is impressive.
Does any of the above definitely, 100%, preclude Private Simpson from having held the banded Dutch musket at Bunker Hill?