AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: Roger B on November 01, 2019, 11:17:58 PM
-
Howdy, guys;
I have an English double 12 that I have become more interested in lately. I bought it as a shooter which job it does admirably, but would like to know more about it. It is marked "Manton" on the locks & barrels followed by "London fine twist" (on the rib). There are a number of proof marks & a set of initials (WC?) stamped on the barrels that I don't know anything about, but unlike the Belgian marks that I'm used to seeing. Locks are nice, but not "best English" & the lock inletting is very good as is the inletting on the rest of the gun. Wood is plain walnut & the checkering was very nice, but has largely worn away. I suspect the wood & barrels (at least) were refinished at some point. Ill try to add the images below if anyone can decipher the proofs.
Roger B.
(https://i.ibb.co/JvWNHrp/20191031-080437.jpg) (https://ibb.co/K2cYWVs)
(https://i.ibb.co/DGCMqWJ/20191031-080412.jpg) (https://ibb.co/pWzKmw7)
(https://i.ibb.co/wp7v74N/20191031-080510.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vLhthkx)
-
Hi,
I am confident we can decipher the marks if you post clear pictures in good light.
dave
-
There ya go! Took me a minute to figure the process out.
Roger B.
-
Hi,
The proofs are Birmingham after 1813. The number "12" likely indicates the bore. They look to be nice twist barrels (not damascus). I'll have to dig a bit for any info on the other marks. Do you have photos of the whole gun and the locks? The Manton name was sometimes spuriously used to sell guns by other makers.
dave
-
Birmingham proof and view stamps post 1813. The Crown over script "BP" is a controller stamp with the "BP" being his initials.
(https://i.ibb.co/6R2mTjc/20191031-080412-edited-1.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
-
Thanks guys! I already doubted the Manton markings, but it's still a good British double. I'll get some full images up soon. I was thinking about selling it & may do so yet.
Roger B.
-
Roger-- Looking forward to seeing your photos.
-
Hi guys;
Added new pics of the "Manton". Interested in opinions.
Roger B.
(https://i.ibb.co/rFwcTHd/20191107-085748.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jbrWBDJ)
(https://i.ibb.co/f0GqsYv/20191107-085742.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dKJjR0g)
(https://i.ibb.co/jgSn7Rg/20191107-085730.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Hnj5mdn)
(https://i.ibb.co/Fxxg0sv/20191107-085720.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nggzn32)
(https://i.ibb.co/x7sLdpw/20191107-085658.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wzLgj98)
(https://i.ibb.co/9NTb2KQ/20191107-085647.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7XWnVMs)
(https://i.ibb.co/t4Ykg7B/20191107-085618.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hy2hbPs)
(https://i.ibb.co/r2vb67v/20191107-085609.jpg) (https://ibb.co/KxmNq0m)
(https://i.ibb.co/n66sNh9/20191031-080803.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5GGWgqm)
-
Birmingham proof and view stamps post 1813..............**** The Crown over script "BP" is a controller stamp with the "BP" being his initials.****
Westbury,
No, the crowned BP in italics is the Birmingham Provisional proof mark.
-
Pukka------Okay, I stand, I mean I sit corrected.
Actually, I did not read close enough comments on pgs 14 &15 of Neumann's 1998 book. An inexcusable blunder I will probably repeat at the first opportunity.
Wait, hold the presses! Here's something you may find interesting Real Rifle, it seems as though a "Crown" over a script "BP" is actually a Birmingham stamp signifying: "Preliminary black powder proof".
(https://i.ibb.co/B20KGGv/BIRMINGHAN.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
-
Westbury,
No, I don't find the above interesting, as the term is not correct. :-)
Preliminary Black Powder Proof is called "Provisional Proof" in the UK.
It is written as such in the booklet, "Notes on the Proof of Shotguns and other Small Arms",
This booklet is issued under joint authority of;
The Worshipful Company of Gunmakers of the City of London,
And;
The Guardians of the Birmingham Proof House.
Best,
Richard.
-
Thankfully, we are not in the UK. Not only do they drive on the wrong side of the road, have confusing money, strange food (except for Bangers and Mash which is really good), they seem to like to muddy the waters with too many terms designed to confuse provincials. They need to rethink their business model.
How's this chart from the NRA Museum?
(https://i.ibb.co/NSsw8px/NRA-MUSEUM.jpg) (https://ibb.co/L584L6S)
-
West,
I don't quite follow, as both papers above say the mark is Provisional Proof.
One is London, and one Birmingham.
Am I missing something?
-
Well,
The second chart I posted appears to read that the Crown over script BP is the proof mark applied since 1856 at Birmingham as a "provisional proof for barrels".
Is that the correct interpretation of that mark, in your opinion? I do not have a copy of the book you sighted. I have Skennerton's Enfield book but that very obviously is no help.
-
West,
Yes the crowned scripted BP is the Provisional proof mark, (As we've said all along)
This is the first proof applied, but a gun Must also carry the Definitive Proof marks.
These Definitive Proof marks (Birmingham) are the crossed scepters with the letters PCB between them, as clearly seen in the photo you posted above.
This mark was used from 1813 to 1904.
Best,
R.
-
Richard---Thanks for the info, appreciate it.
-
West,
You're most welcome, it's very confusing if you aren't used to it!
My Grandmother bought me the book in the sixties. It comes in handy sometimes. :-)
I remember it cost ten shillings and that seemed a scandalous price at the time.
-
I'm not even going to ask what Shillings are. My wife and I spent a few days in London in 2012, during which, I just handed a bunch of Pounds to whomever I was dealing with, and hoped for the best. ;)
-
Wes,
There used to be 20 shillings in a pound before we went decimal.
-
And 12 pence to the shilling! And they even had a half pence (ha'pence) and a fourth pence (farthing). And two pence and six pence coins.
I think the King that came up with the 12 pence thing did so to keep the peasants from counting too much - they would run out of fingers before they came to 12.
And now imagine a 6 and 7 year old American kid learning how to add, subtract, multiply and divide in this crazy mess!
-
Stop, you're making me dizzy.
-
I have doubts on this gun , has it been over restored to a point where it has nearly lost its engraving, then there are the proof marks they are so crisp, the word Manton may have been a late Manton a descendant of the Manton dynasty as this family were still gun making in the breech loading period . Just my observation but I may be mistaken has I have worked and restored several Mantons .
Feltwad
-
I agree. I never thought it was a "real" Manton & knew there had been some restoration done. Since the proofs are protected from wear & tear, their crispness doesnt bother me. I bought the gun as a solid English shooter & that's how I'll sell it. I really appreciate all the information. You may all have a shilling for your efforts.
Roger B.
-
Sounds like a plan!
For our friends in the UK, what will be the price in Pounds, Shillings, Pence, Half pence, Mike Pence, and Farthings? ;)
-
Today's exchange rate for British pounds is 0.778, that is $1 buys 0.77 pence. Great Britain has done away with shillings, pence, ha'pence, Mike Pence, and farthings.
The inverse would be 1.285 x pounds = dollars, as in something that costs L 1,000 = $1,285 dollars.
-
When pounds ,shillings and pence was the Currency 5 shillings we called a dollar. I must say that we drive on the left but that has always been the proper side .
Feltwad ;) ;) ;)
-
The last time I lived in GB, it took $5.40 to buy a British pound. I think that was about 1953.
-
Yeah, it's not worth a whole bushel of shillings. More like $450.00 shipped.
Roger B.
-
The bore size was required under the 1855 rules. This set of barrels was probably made between 1855 and 1868.
https://gunproofmarks.ru/index.php?marks&england&birmingham&proofmarks
Mike
-
I have a very similar gun, proofed the same, Manton on the locks, 14 bore.
On the inside of the locks is stamped WS.
I never thought that the gun had anything to do with THE Mantons, but it is too nice a piece to have spurious markings.
Gun came out of the Ottawa Valley (Ontario, Canada). There was a retailer in Montreal named Manton. I've always assumed that explained the name on the locks.
-
Finally took a couple of photos:
(https://i.ibb.co/VNsq6Jr/012.jpg) (https://ibb.co/z5z4dQj)
(https://i.ibb.co/ZYSPHHV/013.jpg) (https://ibb.co/YyXMDD3)