AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: spgordon on November 02, 2019, 12:20:03 AM
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https://www.amrevmuseum.org/press-room/press-releases/fbi-solves-50-year-cold-case-enabling-revolutionary-war-era-firearm-be
Better article:
https://www.lehighvalleylive.com/nazareth/2019/11/made-in-the-nazareth-area-revolutionary-war-era-rifle-stolen-in-1971-is-recovered-by-the-fbi.html
(https://i.ibb.co/Yhb21BQ/Screen-Shot-2019-11-01-at-7-27-56-PM.png) (https://ibb.co/Fzn6y43)
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Just saw that!!! great news!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Mitch
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Terrific!
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Hi,
What a great place for it to be displayed. The Museum of the American Revolution is excellent and their staff are great. It is a place where if someone wants to know how a flintlock musket or rifle feels and works, staff members will go get one of several contemporary made guns on hand and show you.
dave
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This is indeed great news. This rifle is one of the greatest treasures of the Rev War. Wish we knew something regarding its more recent whereabouts. I recall from a young age, this rifle was shown in one of the early gun collecting magazines printed on newsprint. Likewise I remember the news of its theft from Valley Forge Museum where it was on private loan at the time.
An interesting story here and can be told as the principals are no longer living. Walter O'Connor was well acquainted with this gun and he said that he was at the VF Museum looking at the displays. He noted that this gun was in an insecure showcase near an untended rear door. On his way out he pointed out to the rangers the potential for theft of the gun. They dismissed his comments and he left.
Some months later some people came in and while one detained the ranger with dumb questions, the rest headed for the back and stole a number of items including the Godwin rifle and disappeared out the rear door.
Walt's greatest fear was that the gun had been unwieldy and tossed into the nearby river. As we know it did disappear. Walt believed that he know who did the theft and if he was correct they did not really know the value of the piece.
He was seldom wrong in his information or beliefs, but he would be happy to know that he was wrong on this one. Guess I will have to make a trip to Philly; that and a cheese steak sandwich would be worth it.
Dick
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THIS IS GREAT!
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https://www.lehighvalleylive.com/nazareth/2019/11/made-in-the-nazareth-area-revolutionary-war-era-rifle-stolen-in-1971-is-recovered-by-the-fbi.html?fbclid=IwAR2trUUnBNwXQOVe1zMEkZYFFSoKZYbsZAOJQr_8irTWAZDln15FTVCG7VY
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Awesome!!! Looks like a day trip will be in order for my wife and I.
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Spectacular!
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Looks like someone's been snapping that lock over the last 48 years.
Good to see it made the wild ride intact. It was stolen two months before I was born!
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Very Good News!
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Never thought we'd see that one again. Seems to me I had heard the river theory before.
Tim C.
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https://artdaily.cc/news/118025/244-year-old-rifle-stolen-decades-ago-is-recovered#.XcAPKO9Omf1
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One good thing about the variety of articles is that each also uses different photos! So slowly but surely, we get new photos since I guess Wes White was the last to document it prior to 1971.
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Would like to know more about those responsible and the path it took from the date of the theft until now.
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I'm sure most folks on this site have seen this before, but in case not:
https://christiansbrunn.web.lehigh.edu/
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Looks like a trip to the museum in the near future.
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Would like to know more about those responsible and the path it took from the date of the theft until now.
Wouldn't that be interesting, there's got to be a story there.
Tim
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It sounded to me like the investigation was still going.
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I hope that the story of where the rifle has been does not involve a innocent collector who may have bought the rifle unaware of the theft. This was the case with the John Jacob Sheetz battle of New Orleans rifle. The difference being that the Oerter rifle was reported stolen when the theft happened, the Sheetz rifle was never reported as stolen. The FBI just showed up at the collector's door said that the rifle was stolen, gave the collector no proof, then confiscated the rifle. In this case the museum just said that the rifle belonged to the museum, supposedly contacted the FBI 30+ years after the supposed theft, that they didn't report and had the FBI confiscate the rifle from the collector. The museum did have documentation where the Ross family donated the rifle to the museum, so they could prove that it was in their posestion at one time, but they could not prove that the rifle had been stolen. They did not have to prove that it was stolen, all the museum had to do was claim it was stolen, report the supposed theft to the FBI and have them conficate the rifle. All of a sudden the museum has a historic rifle that they now value at 600K that they say they didn't know was missing for over 30 years. It's strange how the museum's memory got better at the 200th anniversary of the battle and had the rifle confiscated. How many of you collector's have high value historical arms? How many of you think that they belong to you? I hope that the FBI never knocks on your door because you will find out real quick you do not and you will have no say so in the matter.
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That's a little bit of a one-sided argument. There are probably a number of good rifles floating around out there that were stolen from historical societies back in the 1960s, 1970s, and even into the 1980s when the value of the item began to escalate. Many historical societies and smaller museums kept very poor records back in those days, and it was pretty easy for an item to "walk out" when no one was looking. I've seem a number of historical societies lose good items over the years, that I saw years ago, but suddenly are no longer there, and no good explanation by the Historical Society of what happened...primarily because of volunteer help in some positions, and poor or incomplete records for many items.
A theft is always a theft. If a firearm was stolen from an individual, rather than an historical society, would it make a difference? What about the original wishes of the family that donated the firearm...shouldn't that also count for something? The law is pretty clear in the United States, and we are all fortunate for that. Innocent people may get hurt in the process, but the initial party that lost the item was also hurt when it was stolen. We need to keep an open mind on some of this, and realize this will happen from time to time. But our laws are a lot better than the alternative. Shelby Gallien
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Shelby, I had an experience similar to the above back when I was dealing in firearms. I bought a shotgun from a fellow, and a few days later sold it to a young lady who bought it as a present for her Dad.
Week or two later, an investigator for Oklahoma came in, had a list of firearms (with serial numbers), and asked if I had seen any of them. About the 6th item down the list was the shotgun I had bought and re-sold.
I gave him the name and address of both buyer and seller, we called the young lady and had her bring the shotgun in.
I refunded her money, and we gave the shotgun to the OSBI investigator. I never got a refund from the guy I brought is from, but did get a bit of satisfaction when he and his cohorts got a 15 to 25 year sentence in the state penitentiary. Still would have like the refund!
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That is my point exactly, the record keeping was very pour, but all the museum had to do was say the rifle was stolen from them, they did not have to prove it was stolen. What if the museum sold the rifle under the table, no theft report was filed. All of a sudden today the rifle was being shown and the value much higher than 30 years ago and all of a sudden the museums memory gets better. The shoe will be on the other foot Shelby when the FBI comes to your door.
Just saying to all collectors out there, the FBI has been involved in two major confiscations in our hobby. The Oerter rifle as far as we know has a happy ending but in the Sheetz rifle the collector is out of thousands of dollars.
Will you be next?
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Why would any museum not report a rifle stolen at the time, I wonder?
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Because it is very likely an inside job, as many museum “thefts”are.
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Ah, I see. Thanks. I hadn’t thought of that—and a depressing thing to think about!
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From what I read, the "finder" bought it at an "antique" (read that as barn of junk) sale. He contacted his lawyer, who contacted the FBI to arrange to hand it over. To my knowledge, no one was charged. Without a serial number, it's pretty much untraceable.
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Most smaller museums do not report thefts because many of the better "family heirlooms" they receive are not actually given to the museum [no ownership transfer], but rather are on a perpetual loan basis. If all thefts were reported those families who still remember Grandad put the family heirloom in the local museum on a perpetual loan basis would get worried about security and request their item back. And today's potential donors may think twice about placing historic objects in the local museum. So most museums are reluctant to report thefts...particularly if they are an inside job as most are. Obviously, over the years some families lose track of what earlier members permanently loaned to a museum, taking the museum "off the hook." Major historical societies often will no longer provide information on who loaned what to the museum...just to stop "fishing" expeditions into museum records....both for what has been lost but never recognized, and also to stop collectors from finding long lost family members of valuable items and getting them to remove such items from the museum for sale back to the researcher. One of the finest known F&I carved powder horns was removed from a museum 20+ years ago by an astute researcher and collector who, in going through old museum records, determined the valuable horn was actually on perpetual loan and never deeded to the museum, then was able to find a long-lost descendant and get the horn reclaimed...which he promptly purchased.
We may have different opinions on stolen items that have passed through several hands. To me, a stolen item doesn't somehow become a "legal" item if it passes through several hands. It is still stolen. The real protection, which very few collectors will take the time to do, is to ask the seller for a signed receipt stating he will refund the sale price if the gun turns out to be stolen. Of course, we don't want to do this because a lot of dealers won't do it, and the potential buyer will have to pass on the gun he wants. We usually want it so badly, we go ahead and buy it...and ignore possible risk. No one wants to lose something they thought they purchased legitimately, but the buck has to stop somewhere...just never in my pocket. Shelby Gallien
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One of the finest known F&I carved powder horns was removed from a museum 20+ years ago by an astute researcher and collector who, in going through old museum records, determined the valuable horn was actually on perpetual loan and never deeded to the museum, then was able to find a long-lost descendant and get the horn reclaimed...which he then promptly purchased.
Wow. All this is eye-opening to me. Not anything I ever had thought of.
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This story about how museums do not report stolen items and seem to win back lost artifacts rings another bell with this story I just read on Yahoo news. https://www.yahoo.com/news/blade-glory-mystery-around-presidents-105256809.html