AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: Smokey Plainsman on November 25, 2019, 09:20:03 PM
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Guys my new rifle has a very slow twist of 1-66 for a round ball. This seems pretty slow for a .40 and I’m wondering if it’s going to take quite a bit of powder to get a good group, and I worry that a light squirrel load of + or - 30 grains is just not going to group well. I bought the gun specifically for small game, it’s an old Douglas barrel that it uses. Seems I might need to use a fairly heavy charge which is not good for my intended purpose.
Thoughts?
-Smokey
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It will likely shoot squirrels very well with a light powder charge, in the 30 to 40gr. range, of 3F. It's best accuracy (50yards and further) will likely come
with a lot more powder, up to 75gr.(or more) 3F if using a slick lube. Much depends on your ball and patch combination. Weak or loose combinations may
not allow the powder charges necessary to get the rifle shooting IT'S best. This pretty much depends on what you want and need.
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I shoot a douglas barrel in .40 cal. For target and squirrels 40 grain use a .400 ball on top of a .15 patch. Tight combo, but works.
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And like I often say, you never know until you try it.
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I’m just terrified that I’m going to half to use a massive charge to get any kind of a group from it. All I’ll be left with is squirrel pate. Frankly I just thought the barrel would have the normal 1:48” twist that .40s normally come with.
Then I’m reading the Douglas barrels can have stress cracks and burst??
I feel like I’m going to puke!! :'(
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Take the time to enjoy shooting your new rifle ,as stated find out by trying combos before worrying . Experimenting is fun ,worrying
not so much /Ed
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I use just enough powder to cover the ball in the palm of my hand in my .40 for squirrels. It comes to about 20 grains more or less. (Dan’l Boone taught me that😀) A snug patch and ball works best. Doesn’t tear up the squirrels and is deadly accurate at squirrel ranges. Your gun should shoot fine with a light load with 66 twist up to about 25 yards. 1/2 powder to ball weight will make it “crack” and shoot well at longer ranges.
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I use just enough powder to cover the ball in the palm of my hand in my .40 for squirrels. It comes to about 20 grains more or less. (Dan’l Boone taught me that😀) A snug patch and ball works best. Doesn’t tear up the squirrels and is deadly accurate at squirrel ranges. Your gun should shoot fine with a light load with 66 twist up to about 25 yards. 1/2 powder to ball weight will make it “crack” and shoot well at longer ranges.
Take the time to enjoy shooting your new rifle ,as stated find out by trying combos before worrying . Experimenting is fun ,worrying
not so much /Ed
So... so you guys think it’ll shoot good enough for squirrels? That’s good!! Heck, maybe the slow twist might allow for a heavier charge to gain some trajectory and energy for busting yotes at range, he’ll maybe even close in deer hunting?
Why, it might actually be ideal for an “all rounder” woods gun! Maybe???
If the gun won’t group with a lower charge, I could always send it to Robert Hoyt to have it relined with a slower twist and maybe even drop it down to a .36...
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Stop thinking so much and just shoot the @!*% thing. You'll. Worry yourself into needlessly getting rid of a perfectly good rifle.
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Smoky Plainsman: your working yourself up to the point of getting the "drizzles".
I do agree for a .40 that is a bit of a slow twist, but it is what it is. Take some 3F some .395 balls, patches in .010 & .015 soaked in Neatsfoot oil and go to the range. My .40 Kibler SMR shoots almost identical groups with 40 & 60 grains. I use 60 for deer size game and 40 for smaller game and paper shooting.
The fun of a new rifle is getting to know her and seeing what she likes. If this doesn't work send it to The "Muskrat" and I will build you a load, and promptly return it in a decade or two!
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All I’ll be left with is squirrel pate.
Smokey, relax.
My .32 will destroy a squirrel with a badly placed shot...
Work up an accurate load. It won't matter how hot the load is if you stick with head shots... Whether the ball is moving at 800 fps or 2000 fps... The head will basically be gone.
The main issue is working up a load that you have confidence in to be accurate. Once that is done, enjoy the hunt.
Mike
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Thank you all kindly. I read one person’s account on a sister board of them having a .40 barrel with 1:66 twist (probably a Douglas) that shot great with as little as 25 grains. We shall see.
The rifle was advertised as having 7 lands and grooves. Further research reveals Douglas made barrels with that many grooves in a 1:48 twist... the plot thickens.
Only way to know is measure it out when I get it. I’ll let you guys know!
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I had a 40 that shot very well with 40 grs. 3f and .395 ball ans heavy ticking. Try it.
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My first flint gun was a .40 made by Douglas with a 1-66 twist. It was a very accurate barrel. I shot 40 grains of fffg. I believe it was going up through the 10 ring at 25 yds and down through the 10 ring at 50 yards. .395 ball, pillow tick, 40 grains fffg, and you’re good to go.
Regards,
Pletch
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Only way to know is measure it out when I get it. I’ll let you guys know!
All of this and you don't even KNOW what the twist is? wow
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Glad to hear that guys, thanks!!
Would 40 grs be too much for a squirrel or rabbit?
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Relax. Douglas barrels shoot great. That twist should work fine. Give it a chance and be patient. 🙂 God bless, Marc
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Only way to know is measure it out when I get it. I’ll let you guys know!
All of this and you don't even KNOW what the twist is? wow
Well I emailed Track and they said it was probably a 1-66 since it was a Douglas, BUT, it has 7 lands and grooves which I read somewhere might be a 1-48. So yeahhhh................ the plot thickens my brother, the plot thickens...
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Relax. Douglas barrels shoot great. That twist should work fine. Give it a chance and be patient. 🙂 God bless, Marc
Thank you, Marc. I do need to just try it out. I’m starting to feel much better thanks to everyone’s support. Heck, it might not even BE a 1-66. We’ll find out in a handful of days when it arrives after Thanksgiving.
I have a bad habit of freaking out. I’m sorry, all. Thanks for bearing with me and guiding me on my path!
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It was my understanding that Douglas barrels had 8 cuts and the barrels they made for Golden Age Arms had 7. Maybe the GAA barrels had a 1-48 twist if that is the case. I,m sure someone on this forum would know for sure.
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Would 40 grs be too much for a squirrel or rabbit?
10 grains would be too much if you hits them in the ass.
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I have a GAA Vincent in .40 with a Douglas barrel. It was made in the early 70's by Larry Bryner. The barrel is 1:48 and shoots clover leafs on days that I can perform up to the rifle's capabilities. Burst Douglas barrel bursts did occur but were the exception, not the rule.
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Maybe one of the experienced shooters can tell you how to check the twist of your barrel
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RELAX----- The gun will shoot better than you most likely. with about 40grs +,- 10grs I suspect.
If you use "Real Black powder" ( I Stress REAL Black Powder) and clean the barrel when done it should last you 169 years give or Take 50 years.
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I’m just terrified that I’m going to half to use a massive charge to get any kind of a group from it. All I’ll be left with is squirrel pate. ...
No matter what speed you hit a squirrel with a 390/395 ball you're going to do some serious damage. Maybe don't look so hard for problems that likely don't exist or won't occur?
No one knows for sure what that rifle will do but he/she who shoots it. Put 200 shots down range and you'll know a ton better what to expect from it-and if you don't beat the snot out of it while doing such, it should retain most of it's resale value. Send it back now and you shall never know how well it could shoot.
Check the twist! --or not-- it's irrelevant once you start shooting and SEE what it does.
40-grains is no good, only if 35 or 45 groups better. A missed squirrel cares not how fast the ball was traveling.
Two things you can do: Shoot it or send it back, and I think sending it back without determining the actual twist in that bbl is foolhardy. I know I'd be burning powder because barrel makers tend to avoid using twists that make their barrels perform poorly--think about that (despite what all the experts might say on the internets).
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Had a client shoot a grouse up in a tree, with a .32 TC rifle, using 25gr. 3F, seems to me. That shot opened the grouse up like a book and it was all there, except for the breast meat - that was gone.
;D
So- you need to hit them in the head, whether grouse, squirrel or rabbit. A .36, with a bag hit, will open a snowshoe hare up like that as well. Imagine what a .40 will do. I see a .40 as a squirrel rifle, up to coyote/wolf rifle, within reasonable range, that is.
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Thanks, gang. I’ve read accounts of people using these slow twist Douglas .40 barrels with as little as 25 grains and getting cloverleaf out to 25 yards.
As one person said, it’s seems “the slow twist on these allows a higher powder charge, but doesn’t require it”.
So, it seems I’m probably just fine. Once I get the rifle in hand I’ll check the twist just to see, but as you all have mentioned I should probably just hold on to it and see.
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Many yrs ago I was shooting at a match with a friend and we got to the 100 yd match. NMLRA 100 yd , 6 inch black bull, 5 shots offhand match, we practice I,m in the 30,s and he is around 40-42 and he says I ,m posting for score as I can do better as I know where to hold now.We shoot and I,m still at 30,s and he shoots a 44. Now pay attention, his gun, 44 inch long Douglass bbl. 32 cal. one in 66 twist .313 ball and .016 ticking over 35 grs powder and no wind. Do not underestimate what your gun will do until you try it Above story Yellow Banks in S. Indiana 1983
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Don't knock your 66 twist rifle. I had one in a .40 and one in a .32. Both shot great with little or lots of powder. I varied the load on the distance I was shooting. Use 30 grains in the .32 at 25 and 50 yards and 60 at 100 yards. Both of those loads held center at their respective distances. I won my first 1st place ribbon in a match at 100 yards with the .32 and 60 grains. Shot a groundhog through the head at 125 yards with 70 grains. The slow twist should not be a problem, but a plus if you want to shoot a heavier load. My .40 had similar experiences. I didn't keep it too long as the .32 filled the bill in a squirrel rifle and I felt the .40 was a little light for deer.
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Had a client shoot a grouse up in a tree, with a .32 TC rifle, using 25gr. 3F, seems to me. That shot opened the grouse up like a book and it was all there, except for the breast meat - that was gone.
;D
So- you need to hit them in the head, whether grouse, squirrel or rabbit. A .36, with a bag hit, will open a snowshoe hare up like that as well. Imagine what a .40 will do. I see a .40 as a squirrel rifle, up to coyote/wolf rifle, within reasonable range, that is.
Yep, squirrels get a little tough to skin if you put a .310 ball through the rib cage... Unless you have a buddy then you can each work on half. ;D
Mike
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;D ;D ;D
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This is a lovely forum. You guys sure know how to help a guy out and put him at ease.
This Thanksgiving, I’ll be thankfully thanking my friends here!!
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My experiences over the past 30 years with the .32 is that for squirrels you want head shots or behind the front legs, through the rib cage. A head shot eliminates most of the head. A shot through the rib cage puts a .32 caliber hole on both sides and an instant dead squirrel. As hot that hits front leg or rear leg bones essentially causes that part of the squirrel to be unusable. The .32 has a lot more devastating power than most people want to believe. If it were legal here in WV, I'd have no real problem killing a deer with one. Also works well on turkeys.
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My .40 cal Douglas is from the mid to late 70's and its a 1:66" twist. Shoots one-hole groups with anything I shoot in it.. Doesn't matter 2F or 3, under .395" round ball and tight fitting patch. I use exclusively Dynamit Nobel caps for the most consistent ignition...
Bart
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My .40 cal Douglas is from the mid to late 70's and its a 1:66" twist. Shoots one-hole groups with anything I shoot in it.. Doesn't matter 2F or 3, under .395" round ball and tight fitting patch. I use exclusively Dynamite Nobel caps for the most consistent ignition...
Bart
Good to hear, Bart!
Even low charges group well? Have your tried anything in the 25-40 grain range?
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PM Sent.
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I would not be the least worried about that 1 in 66. Bet you will be amazed at how well it shoots with a few hours on the range developing a load. As for squirrels I only shoot enough for myself as the wife doesn't eat them so I only take head shots with the 32 or 36 as I am not real concerned about shooting a limit. A couple of them makes a big meal for me and if I happen to miss a shot another one will show up soon enough.
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that 40 will shoot better than we can. mine has a rice barrel, with 30gr. of goex it will shoot one hole at 40 yds. ,,,,,,,,,,,
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The GAA Douglas barrels are 1 in 48" but I like the 1 in 66" better. With just a bit more powder you get a gun that shoots flatter than a 48" twist which means less elevation doing past 50-75yds . I have a Douglas 1 in 48" .54 that is a great shooter, but seems to max out at 80grs FFFg. It hates FFg for some reason that I've never understood.
Roger B.
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Yes - that is strange, Roger.
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We still don't know if Mr. Plainsman's new gun is actually 66". It's not stated in the description beyond "slow twist" and he's not measured it AFIK.
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Hoping to measure it tonight when I pick up the rifle from Fedex.
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I've never given much thought to ROT as long as the rifling depth was sufficient. My .54 has a ROT of 1-66" and shoots heavy & powderpuff loads equally well; which reads "super", okay? A Crockett I owned shot well with most any powder charge but was usually fed 30 grains of 3F. That rifle killed a lot of squirrels with that load. One thing I noticed was that any hit on a squirrel between the shoulder and hindquarters simply made a tiny hole going in and out. I even recall shooting a big fox squirrel in the neck with a .58 prb, 1-66", (I was deer hunting) and creating a tiny slit both in and out.
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Smokey I have three rifles. 32 - 36 -an 40 caliber all flint all Douglas barrels. I shoot lite loads in all of them an some medium loads up to 55-70 grains. All very accurate ..! Never ever had a problem with Douglas barrels..!I like 35 grains in my 32.. It works is all I know..!!
What works for me might not work for others. But that's half the fun...
Oldtravler
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Smokey I have three rifles. 32 - 36 -an 40 caliber all flint all Douglas barrels. I shoot lite loads in all of them an some medium loads up to 55-70 grains. All very accurate ..! Never ever had a problem with Douglas barrels..!I like 35 grains in my 32.. It works is all I know..!!
What works for me might not work for others. But that's half the fun...
Oldtravler
Great to hear that, thanks!!
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Round ball shooters don't need twist for gyroscopic stability, but benefit from equal distribution of loads generated by small aerodynamic flaws. Primary reason is that CG and CP for a roundball are the same.
My 66" twist .45 with 35 grains of 3FG at 50 yards, offhand.
(https://i.imgur.com/2iYPhqR.jpg)
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I miss shooting B-27 targets.
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Well, yall, I don’t think I need to worry too much:
(https://i.postimg.cc/B6hmtwwg/4-CC253-AF-42-B8-4-A1-D-8-C9-A-837-F7-F62-C210.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/66mHXgZ6/EB7417-E3-9996-482-A-99-AF-0-A19289-A8172.jpg)
Shot the gun for the first time at 30 paces (about 25 yards) which I figured would be a good “squirreling range”. Took five shots with 35 grains and ticking cut at muzzle, .395 Hornadys, she’ll shoot guys very pleased. Now I just have to get the sights dialed in.
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Very nice, think you would kill a squirrel with that.
Mike
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Nice group!
Were does one find squirrels in country like that?
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Nice group!
Were does one find squirrels in country like that?
Ground squirrels???
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Nice group!
Were does one find squirrels in country like that?
Ohhh... over there yonders a way. ;)
Honestly, Mt. Charleston might have some squirrels but I’m thinking more back home in Illinois.
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Next time you go there to shoot bring a couple of buddies with a pickup truck, rakes, and wheelbarrows. It's a crying shame to see areas get trashed by shooters. It happens way too much in my area to. Regardless of what kind of shooting you do it's everyone's responsibility to police the range.
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Next time you go there to shoot bring a couple of buddies with a pickup truck, rakes, and wheelbarrows. It's a ring shame to see areas get trashed by shooters. It happens way too much in my area to. Regardless of what kind of shooting you do it's everyone's responsibility to police the range.
You’d have to see it to believe it, Muskrat.
Empty beer bottles, used condoms, trash and refuse everywhere. I’m not putting any of that in my truck. It is an utter wasteland for hundreds of yards. Millions of shotgun hulls, spent cases, you name it. It’s been used as a shooting range (and dump site) for over 3 decades.
Me trying to clean up all that disgusting stuff with a rake and pickup truck isn’t going to happen. You’re more than free to fly out here and do that if you’re so concerned. :D
I pack out everything when I go. That’s about as good as I can do.
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Twist on my custom Rice .36cal is 1:48 and its a 36" squirrel barrel