AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: Clark Badgett on December 08, 2019, 05:44:00 AM
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Several years ago I bought 100 lbs of pure lead (99%) and it does test exactly where it's supposed to. Right at 5 BHN. I have a separate pot just for pure lead, marked as such, and I make sure that only that pure lead goes in that pot. Cast up some balls in .530 and .535 and test them and they are testing at 8 BHN. This one has me really confused.
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Are they in 1 lb. ingots?
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Are they in 1 lb. ingots?
No, the pure is in 10lb bricks.
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I am at a loss to explain that seeming phenomenon.
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I understand the question, but must ask-is 8 BHN a problem? I've forgotten really but seems the Pb alloys I used to use were way higher than that.
We've a metallurgist around here somewhere. Maybe he'll chime in.
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I've read that when alloyed lead is cast into bullets they will increase in hardness over the years - I don't think this pertains to pure lead :-\?
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This might be off topic some what but when the term "chilled shot" is used, I think I have read that chilled shot was harder. Now was that chilled shot softer before being chilled and could Clark, s puzzle be caused by chilling the round balls if the chilling did harden them? :-\
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Just thinking out pound but maybe the round surface of the ball is throwing off your reading compared to when you tested the lead in flat ingot form ? What hardness tester you using ?
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This might be off topic some what but when the term "chilled shot" is used, I think I have read that chilled shot was harder. Now was that chilled shot softer before being chilled and could Clark, s puzzle be caused by chilling the round balls if the chilling did harden them? :-\
Chilled shot noun
Definition of chilled shot
: lead shot that has an antimony content of 3 to 6 percent
(From Merriam-Webster Dictionary)
Dennis
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Just thinking out pound but maybe the round surface of the ball is throwing off your reading compared to when you tested the lead in flat ingot form ? What hardness tester you using ?
I'm using the Lee tester. I am filing a flat on the ball before testing. The left over end of the brick I tested gave me a .100 +/- sized indentation and the round ball gave me a .081 +/- indentation. Both were held under load for a timed 30 seconds.
Wade, the issue I'm having is that I can't get a .535 ball to even start with anything over .010 patches. In fact the only combination that I can get to load with anything less than excessive force is a .530 and .010 ball. Even the .530 and .015 patch starts to become difficult, but loadable. My accuracy is acceptable, and I'm hitting the same area on the gongs with each shot when I do my part. I'm feeling left out of the tight ball-patch combo club :D :D
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Just thinking out pound but maybe the round surface of the ball is throwing off your reading compared to when you tested the lead in flat ingot form ? What hardness tester you using ?
I'm using the Lee tester. I am filing a flat on the ball before testing. The left over end of the brick I tested gave me a .100 +/- sized indentation and the round ball gave me a .081 +/- indentation. Both were held under load for a timed 30 seconds.
Wade, the issue I'm having is that I can't get a .535 ball to even start with anything over .010 patches. In fact the only combination that I can get to load with anything less than excessive force is a .530 and .010 ball. Even the .530 and .015 patch starts to become difficult, but loadable. My accuracy is acceptable, and I'm hitting the same area on the gongs with each shot when I do my part. I'm feeling left out of the tight ball-patch combo club :D :D
Mine won't take .535 balls either, and require a starter with 530's with a heavy denim patch. As Daryl explains it, a patch needs to carry enough lube to wipe the bore all the way down-and you might not get this with thinner patching. Is the barrel coned? They've found that a short smooth radius requires less pressure to swage the load into the bore-than the gradual taper of a cone.
Edit: Are you saying that the hardness difference is causing your loading difficulties?
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Thanks for that info Dennis. :)
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Wade, I'm not sure what is causing it. I've always used .018 patching since I started shooting these guns back in the early 90s. Now I get a rifle that seems to like .010 with the smaller ball. I've always read Daryl's shooting posts and tried his advice where I can, it's always worked, except for this rifle. I've smoothed the muzzle radius, tried a smaller starter, measured the barrel, and now check the lead to make sure it's pure. I'm wondering if I should try something other than the neatsfoot oil, but it behaves the same with the bear grease and mink oil. I will say this barrel is the easiest cleaning barrel I've ever had.
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It sounds like this may be a new rifle. Have you checked the bore dimension, it may be smaller than your other rifles.
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Clark,
When casting the balls, did you drop them into water to cool?
If the hardness is different from the ingot, I can see surface tension giving a different reading if cast into water, but like you, I am at a complete loss as to how hardness can change otherwise.
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It sounds like this may be a new rifle. Have you checked the bore dimension, it may be smaller than your other rifles.
Bores do vary. As do moulds. It's just a function of tolerance in the wear of the machines used to make them and the design specifications. I'd get a smaller ball yet, as I like a hefty patch.
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Clark,
When casting the balls, did you drop them into water to cool?
If the hardness is different from the ingot, I can see surface tension giving a different reading if cast into water, but like you, I am at a complete loss as to how hardness can change otherwise.
The Lee alloy tester needs a fairly large, flat surface for testing. That means filing the surface of a/the balls for testing.
Lead alloys will not harden when dropped into water, unless they contain both antimony and arsenic, although the arsenic
content is minuscule, but necessary. Lead shot has enough arsenic to harden if quenched or heat treated, as-do old style
alloy clamp or crimp-on WW's.
As noted, I cannot figure it out either, Richard.
The only way would be if an alloy bar of lead was introduced into the pure lead melt.
I also do not understand why THIS barrel is an anomaly as to loading snug patched balls.
Even an 8 brinel ball should be loadable with a .020" patch and .530" ball.
I was loading .682" WW balls in my .69 with the 12 oz. denim - THOSE were bloody tight, which is why I purchased the .677" mould. Those
load just fine with the 12oz AND 14oz. patches, I measure at .030" and .034"(calipers compressed).
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No water quench. Just drop them from the mold onto my old towel and keep going. The balls are measuring true, at least caliper true. Maybe I should mic them to get a more accurate reading. The bore is .540 as best as I could tell without actually slugging the bore, but it does have odd number grooves so that would take some math work.
Maybe this particular barrel just likes loose loads. It's hitting where I aim and it easy to load, maybe I should just accept that for now and revisit this after I get a couple years of shooting through it.
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Several years ago I bought 100 lbs of pure lead (99%)
Just opinion on my part, but "pure" is a relative (as opposed to absolute) measurement. Some alloying elements, like arsenic, require less than 0.5% to affect the hardness of lead. Here is an excerpt from a book that discusses the point: https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Journal_of_Industrial_and_Engineerin/9KZGAQAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=lead+hardening&pg=PA446&printsec=frontcover (https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Journal_of_Industrial_and_Engineerin/9KZGAQAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=lead+hardening&pg=PA446&printsec=frontcover)
Good luck in solving your mystery.
Carl
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I ran into a similar problem few years ago. The lead passed the thumb nail test but loaded hard. I placed the cast ball against a Hornady ball in the vice and squeeze. The cast ball embedded its self in the Hornady ball without deforming.
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Odd number of grooves would indeed present a smaller actual bore size (it would seem), then if even numbered grooves, if cut from the same original bore, seems to me.
Much of THIS then depends on the actual width of the grooves and lands.
I am sure the barrel maker used the same bore reamer size as normal, but there are ALWAYS tolerances in tools.
A way of testing ball hardness vs loading, would be to try some swaged balls from Speer or Hornady, or purchased cast
balls from Track or other sources.
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I could take the barrel to work and pin gauge it.
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Cast some balls from it,take the gun to the range and if it will make a 5 leaf clover at 50
yards the I would call it a success. ;D
Bob Roller
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Just what Bob said .
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If it's 8 bn, it's essentially pure. Lee testers are not the most accurate tester in the world. I don't know if they are still made, but the Cabin Tree and LBT were the best.
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Clark: what kind of starter are you using? May I suggest one that has a moose antler knob? the added weight and density of the moose antler gets the ball into the bore, no matter it's bhn. Once in the bore, it cannot be any tighter than any other ball, though, if if is elongated, there will be more bearing surface.
I recently (two days ago) re-sighted my Verner rifle. It has a Getz bbl. with .50 cal bore and the lands are WIDER that the grooves...not optimal. I loaded .016" denim patches with ease. But they didn't shoot particularly well at 50 meters. So I tried some .018" denim and had a $#*! of a time getting them into the muzzle. Now, this is cotton that is compressed as hard as possible between my thumb and forefinger, with help from my other hand. My philosophy is that that is how the ball/patch is received by the bore. The heavier patches shot better, and I was able to come to a satisfactory result.
But a heavy dense starter knob, with enough surface area that a smack with the other hand is all that is needed to start the ball flush with the muzzle, is vital.
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Your metallurgist is in hiding, as he has no practical experience with the hardness of nominally pure lead.
Jim K
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Your metallurgist is in hiding, as he has no practical experience with the hardness of nominally pure lead.
Jim K
How does this happen Jim? I thought our metallurgist understood all the structures of the alloys and manipulations thereof. Geez now we gotta study for plumbum certification... ;D
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Could whatever you're using to coat the mold so the balls don't stick/solder themselves to the mold be raising the hardness of the finished balls?
Is there a chance there is a contaminate on your ladle?
Do all the blocks of lead measure the same hardness in several locations?
Maybe there is a slight contamination in the blocks?
Sorry, but I cannot think of anything else that might cause the problem.
I'm presuming you have not loaned that pot to anyone else, and no one is dropping a wheel weight or something in while you are not looking.
Is obtaining a new pot and ladle and comparing results an option"
I doubt the lead is removing any of the aluminum from the mold. The lead is not hot enough to do that?
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No water quench. Just drop them from the mold onto my old towel and keep going. The balls are measuring true, at least caliper true. Maybe I should mic them to get a more accurate reading. The bore is .540 as best as I could tell without actually slugging the bore, but it does have odd number grooves so that would take some math work.
Maybe this particular barrel just likes loose loads. It's hitting where I aim and it easy to load, maybe I should just accept that for now and revisit this after I get a couple years of shooting through it.
If the balls measure the same as those previously cast of pure lead its not likely that the alloy is very hard if alloyed at all. But 99% pure could be anything being 1% what else. I am assuming the barrel has wide lands. These always load harder than narrow lands. You can order plug gages from MSCdirect.com that will let you check the bore with little measurements. If you think its .540" then get a .540 minus gage and see if it goes in the bore. If not then the bore is under .540"
https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/88854005
Or just shoot .530 RBs.
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Could whatever you're using to coat the mold so the balls don't stick/solder themselves to the mold be raising the hardness of the finished balls?
Is there a chance there is a contaminate on your ladle?
Do all the blocks of lead measure the same hardness in several locations?
Maybe there is a slight contamination in the blocks?
Sorry, but I cannot think of anything else that might cause the problem.
I'm presuming you have not loaned that pot to anyone else, and no one is dropping a wheel weight or something in while you are not looking.
Is obtaining a new pot and ladle and comparing results an option"
I doubt the lead is removing any of the aluminum from the mold. The lead is not hot enough to do that?
I don't put anything on my molds, except a little soot from a match the first time they are used. No one uses my lead pots.
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I spray all of my moulds with moly bullet coating (Lyman or Ms. Moly).
This prevents lead sticking and does not change the dimensions - at all.