AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: MuskratMike on December 22, 2019, 07:43:00 PM
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Went to our monthly shoot yesterday for our big Christmas shoot and feed. It went from something like 9:00am - 3:00pm. It rained like it can only rain here in the Pacific Northwest. Included was a trail walk. By the time I got home and cleaned up the rifle and pistol had sat in my truck (in the garage) for a couple of hours. The pistol was fine but the rifle had rust forming all over it. Now it was only surface rust and cleaned up fine but rust all the same. When I am done cleaning my guns I always lightly oil the metalwork and wax the stock. This time of year I also use the wax on the metalwork. It is a lemon oil and beeswax product I get from the Amish furniture store. I hoped it would work better than it did. As my guns are neither blued or browned I am looking to see what all you guys use that works.
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I use simonize car wax on the metal works, and butchers bowling alley wax on the wood work. Has served me well over the years. Our weather here in the Northeast can be pretty challenging also.
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I use Balistol for all metal...absolutely no complaints an to me it is far better than the W-D stuff...other's may disagree...that's why we have choices...
Oldtravler
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I also use Ballistol. Nothing has rusted yet. I even use it at work on my expensive metrology tools since I work in a non-climate controlled shop. The Ohio Valley is damp, both winter and summer.
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Lemon oil furniture polish is composed primarily of petroleum distillates - think mineral oil - with a little bit of lemon derived oil to make it smell nice. The bees wax may do your stock some good, but I don't put mineral oil on my stocks.
I've been using Renaissance Wax for a few years. Very good stuff for both wood and metal.
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Lemon oil furniture polish is composed primarily of petroleum distillates - think mineral oil - with a little bit of lemon derived oil to make it smell nice. The bees wax may do your stock some good, but I don't put mineral oil on my stocks.
I've been using Renaissance Wax for a few years. Very good stuff for both wood and metal.
As is Ballistol. Mineral oil is paraffin oil isn't it? And if I remember Mad Monks writings correctly paraffin oils and greases do not react negatively with BP soot. But then again I'm only wiping down the metal work with the stuff. I do have a piece of wood that I'm experimenting on with the Ballistol.
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Mineral oil and paraffin oil are the same thing. These terms are kind of loose. They refer to a range of colorless petroleum distillates, and composition may vary. Mad Monk is around, perhaps he'll chime in.
I've never used Ballistol, but a lot of people seem to like it. I live in the rocky mountains, and WD-40 is good enough in this country.
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Good old Johnson’s paste wax is the stuff. It’s been around for upwards of a hundred years, and works just fine on wood, and metal. Is it easy as a spray, or liquid? No, but it works.
Hungry Horse
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Johnson’s paste wax put on hidden metal with toothbrush.
Clenzoil rag on everything else for last 30 years
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I use wonderlube on everything inside and out. No problems with rust.
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Johnson's past wax here too. I use it on all my guns, rifles and pistols alike for over 10 years now with no problems. Before season I remove the barrels on my flinters and put 2 to 3 good coats on all metal surface's. If out in a lot of rain I'll do the same thing. When I come in from hunting a quick rubdown with a soft cloth is all that's needed for surface protection.
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Fluid film something new to me and highly recommended by a friend, his shop is in a wood and not heated except when working. Into metal and wood working both and swears by this product to protect his machines.
https://www.fluid-film.com/
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Fluid film something new to me and highly recommended by a friend, his shop is in a wood and not heated except when working. Into metal and wood working both and swears by this product to protect his machines.
https://www.fluid-film.com/
Seems to be mostly mineral oil.
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I don't put anything on them, now, or when I lived down on the coast. The stocks all have finish
and the barrels get wiped down with WD40 after cleaning.
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Daryl: I also have protective finish on the wood and WD-40 on the metal. Living in beautiful B.C. you must have faced the same issue. That of having the metal start rusting before getting to the cleaning stage. Going to try waxing the metal on rainy shoot days or just wipe down periodically during the shoot with a rag wetted with WD-40.
Merry Christmas to you.
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RIG if anything on the metal & always in the bore. Does Turtle Wax work, too? I've never seen a rusty turtle!
Roger B.
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One of the best and most comprehensive tests of gun care and other commercial products for rust prevention, etc. Long but very informative.
http://www.dayattherange.com/?page_id=3667
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Daryl: I also have protective finish on the wood and WD-40 on the metal. Living in beautiful B.C. you must have faced the same issue. That of having the metal start rusting before getting to the cleaning stage. Going to try waxing the metal on rainy shoot days or just wipe down periodically during the shoot with a rag wetted with WD-40.
Merry Christmas to you.
Merry Christmas to you too, but nothing on the barrel or wood when shooting in the rain. I do try to avoid shooting in the rain or when it's snowing heavily, but IT does happen. I've not had trouble with the barrel rusting before getting at the cleaning.
That said, I oft times take a rifle to the range in a leather slip-case. Once the gun is fired, it is not cased until after it's home and cleaned and I'm going somewhere with it - like back to the range to shoot. Otherwise it is stored muzzle down in the lockup.
Storage of a gun in a case or putting it back in the case after shooting is just asking for rust, imho.
Fumes from the fouling will impregnate the case - I can do without that.
Can't really see it, but it is snowing in the pictures. No rust & the barrels of course, were dripping wet with melted snow.
(https://i.ibb.co/C0DFJhb/P2011558.jpg) (https://ibb.co/j4sFVgy)
(https://i.ibb.co/BtZMztx/P2011556.jpg) (https://ibb.co/yXyjfX1)
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Just a suggestion Muskrat Mike but I think I would approach it like this; I would use a good wax on both metal and wood 100% of the time. If I knew I would be shooting in rain or snow I would add another coat on both and buff it to a hard shine. In a plastic bag I would carry a cloth with a large portion coated with wax rubbed in just enough to break up the chunks and lightly absorbed into the surface. In that, or another bag I would carry several clean dry cloths.
During the shoot I would occasionally wipe the moisture off with a dry cloth. If you get a chance and the metal is fairly dry I would wipe it all with the wax impregnated cloth followed by a hard buff with a dry cloth.
I would not trust WD-40 to protect any surface at all under those conditions. I use WD-40 but only to help displace moisture from down the barrel and on the lock after cleaning. Then wipe it all away before final drying and waxing.
I'm sure the various types of oils would probably work just as well as evidenced by the number of shooters who use oils. But after using solely wax as a rust preventative for over 10 years now I've come to trust it more than other methods.
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I make it a point of cleaning my guns at the range before I go home. When I am in the Midwest rain forest I make it a point of going over the rifle or pistol again the next day. Every time I've been at Martins Station, the humidity has been high and pervasive, that is if it isn't pouring rain. I do the battles in those conditions. After the engagements, I wipe the outside of the barrel off all powder residue and re grease with bear oil. This helps abate the rust.
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All of that cold white stuff all over everything is the reason that I live well south of the Red River!!
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Daryl: Great photos. Now that's more snow than we will ever see here in the Willamette Valley (at least the portion I live in).
Merry Christmas to you my friend.
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Merry Christmas to you too, Mike. "All that cold white snow" - LOL & winter has barely started. :o
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By the way..... I forgot to mention that after reading the link I posted above, I switched to Frog Lube and have had incredibly good luck with it.
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The results of that Frog Lube jumped out at me too. Guess I'll have to hop down to the store and get some. (OK, OK, I'll stop...)
Much to my disappointment, Frog Lube is not made from frog squeezings. It seems to be mostly coconut oil. Here's an FTIR scan:
(https://i.ibb.co/Q8tDkkg/Froglube.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
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Ok gotta ask...
What the heck is frog lube, never heard of it. Hope it's not the slime from the skin, from the text of the last post is assume it has a lot to do with coconut oil. Is it better than the castor oil I have been using?
coupe
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Scroll up and read davec2's post then look at the link. Very interesting data.
One of the best and most comprehensive tests of gun care and other commercial products for rust prevention, etc. Long but very informative.
http://www.dayattherange.com/?page_id=3667
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Jose,
Great data !!! I have nowhere near the energy to repeat the testing in that article but I do have the energy to try a few samples comparing Frog Lube with coconut oil.
Thanks for posting..... by the by , where did you find that data???
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I have long used Fixin' Wax. 50/50 beeswax and kidney fat from a butchered bovine. I rub it in very well, and it both beautifies and protects. Chuck it in a pot, stir while it heats, then pour it into various containers.
It is edible, works great as protection from chapped lips. and will burn with a simple candle wick. I usually toss in some peppermint or spearmint oil. Might make my firearm smell funny, but it makes the lips good when you rub a bit on. I use an empty Altoids tin or 12 when I go to making it. Makes great little Christmas gifts.
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dave - here's two references:
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/02/21/froglube-is-probably-made-from-coconut-oil-not-frogs/
https://vuurwapenblog.com/general-opinion/lies-errors-and-omissions/froglube-tracklube-and-seal1-laboratory-analysis/
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Frog lube is a product that will never be put anywhere near a firearm that I wish to depend upon. I like my guns to function and not lock up. Learned that the hard way, where function matters, really matters. Only lube I have ever thrown away.
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I would be interested to know what the circumstances were for your “lock up”. Unless you were in extremely cold temperatures, I’m not quite sure how you could lock up a firearm with coconut oil ? But I would be interested to know what happened.
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I have long used Fixin' Wax. 50/50 beeswax and kidney fat from a butchered bovine. I rub it in very well, and it both beautifies and protects. Chuck it in a pot, stir while it heats, then pour it into various containers.
It is edible, works great as protection from chapped lips. and will burn with a simple candle wick. I usually toss in some peppermint or spearmint oil. Might make my firearm smell funny, but it makes the lips good when you rub a bit on. I use an empty Altoids tin or 12 when I go to making it. Makes great little Christmas gifts.
Craig, I hope you don't mind if I expand just a little for the benefit of our friends (including myself) who might wish to give your recipe a try.
Folks...the "kidney fat" he's referring to is better known within the beef processing industry as Suet. It's composition is not the same as general Beef fat. When I was working in the business we kept Suet separate from Fat because it brought a premium price from the renderer, and occasionally had customers purchasing it for edible use. You can often find actual Suet for sale in a grocery store, or you can ask for it...just be sure you tell them you're looking for Suet, not just "fat".
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Don't mind a bit, Don. Thanks for mentioning that suet. I did, many years ago, try it with fat trimmed from a hind quarter of steer - egads, what a mistake! That stuff turns rancid really quickly.
Most butchers will give you a pound or so of the suet, at least those who custom cut someone's steer. I have been wanting to try some buffalo suet, and see how that works.
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I would be interested to know what the circumstances were for your “lock up”. Unless you were in extremely cold temperatures, I’m not quite sure how you could lock up a firearm with coconut oil ? But I would be interested to know what happened.
I do shoot year round. Military rifle range in October 2010, about 30*. Took 5 founds before the action would fully cycle reliably. Not a lock up per say with that incident, but a handgun that I have that has a round part that spins on a pin had to be disassembled, cleaned and relubed with bear grease and that was just from storage in my 60* basement. Sluggish performance after sitting with froglube is fairly common knowledge within the original targeted group of shooters.
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Coconut oil becomes solid below about 75* F. It is hard as a rock at refrigerator temperature. Above 75* it is a thin oil. Putting it in a mechanism would really gum up the works at anything other than shirtsleeve temperatures.
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Clark B,
Thanks for the info. I have never put it on any weapon thicker than a thin wipe. Never had the kind of difficulty you mention in any modern weapon with it. For muzzle loaders, I use it primarily to prevent rust on the outside and in the bore and I lube the lock internals with an action grease from Brownells.
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Daryl...I don't put anything on them, now, or when I lived down on the coast. The stocks all have finish
and the barrels get wiped down with WD40 after cleaning.
Yup. Even when I was out in the woods for two or three days I could never see the need to over grease or wipe. I judge the trick is to clean promptly, a habit that was ingrained deeply, probably by the Smokey The Bear Cover. Thanks, SIR! Semper Fi.
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...and that is the lesson I learned from this. if you get your fine weapon soaking wet, don't take it from the cold wet environment and bring it into a warm dry garage or shop and not tend to it right away. There was no damage done but it was a little reminder I will not soon forget or repeat.
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I would add to this, that if I lived in a very humid area, I would likely use something like Hoppe's #9 (smokeless powder solvent) for rust prevention on the outside of the gun's steel.
Wet tests have shown it to be second only to Eezox for rust prevention and much better than Hoppe's Gun Oil. Go figure.
Others on other sites have noted products like "Sheath" or some such name. I have no experience with that product. Others use Break-free CLP, although it's been 35 years since I used CLP
for anything. Seemed to do that job, but I lived in Smithers with 50% average humidity. There, WD40 worked just as well.
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Thank you Daryl. I value your opinion.
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RIG
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I use rig on the inside of the lock, 3 and 1 oil inside the bore and butcher's wax under and outside the barrel.
Not sure if butcher's wax is the best wax but the smell reminds me of an old store when I grew up.
I think that deer tallow patch lube slows some rust from forming in the bore and at the muzzle.
In cold weather i add olive oil to the tallow. I no longer put anything with beeswax in the barrel.
Break free CO (collectors oil) IS what I use inside and outside the barrel is the gun won't be used for awhile.
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I just ordered a can of wd-40 specialist thanks for that information looks like it will work on
anything.
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WD40 Specialist Long Term Corrosion Inhibitor... It ranked high in some of the tests they put it through. Don't know if it's the best of the best, but it works and is easy to use.
Mike
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Frog lube is junk, I've had rust get WORSE on some stainless tactical folders that were carried daily, had it seize and allow minor rust a couple 1911's (the company rep said it was because the gun was cold that it siezed), and the guys running the company are shady, ripped off someone else for the formula. The only claim they make that is valid is that it is natural and non-toxic.
I have over 20 years in the modern firearms business, the only modern cleaners/lubes I use are, MFR-7, Gunzilla, MPro-7, Wislon Combat grease and oil (on 1911s and Hi-Powers), and on a VERY dirty bore, I will sometimes use Butch's Bore Shine (stuff smells like death by chemical but works.
The only one of these I use on my muzzleloaders is the Gunzilla. I did a freeze test in my freezer and it didn't turn to a block of ice (I know, not very scientific) and I use it mostly as a lock lube. If I know it will be a while before I can clean the bore after a range session, I swab the bore with it before leaving the range. I plan to do some tests using it as a patch and/or felt wad lube, at some point. Initial test shots using it on felt wads with round balls shot from a smoothie resulted in those rounds impacting higher than with my usual olive oil and beeswax lube.
For rust protection on the outside of the barrel and lock I just use beeswax.
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I use Ballistol and it works for me. I try not to shoot in bad wet weather and I usually have an oil rag somewhere on me to wipe the rifle down. I don't use wax on anything gun related. If it is really wet/snow when I get home I will completely disassemble the gun and remove the lock and barrel to make sure I get any water off and just add that to my cleaning routine. Been doing this for a long time never had a problem.
By the way I love those pictures Daryl!
Rob
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We used to shoot in more snow & cold weather than nowadays, although that wasn't that many years ago.
As to ballistol, I think it's water soluble, so likely it's not the best "oil" for wet or damp conditions as it won't keep water off the steel.
Complete take down and cleaning if wet with snow or water/rain, is a good thing. Well done.
Looking forward to the shooting tests.
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We used to shoot in more snow & cold weather than nowadays, although that wasn't that many years ago.
As to ballistol, I think it's water soluble, so likely it's not the best "oil" for wet or damp conditions as it won't keep water off the steel.
Complete take down and cleaning if wet with snow or water/rain, is a good thing. Well done.
Looking forward to the shooting tests.
Ballistol emulsifies in water, it doesn't dissolve. Been using Ballistol since early may on all my firearms and tools at work (non-climate controlled and humid in winter and summer) and have had zero rust on anything. So far, it is working just as the can says, even cleans minor cuts and ends dry skin. Honestly.
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We used to shoot in more snow & cold weather than nowadays, although that wasn't that many years ago.
As to ballistol, I think it's water soluble, so likely it's not the best "oil" for wet or damp conditions as it won't keep water off the steel.
Complete take down and cleaning if wet with snow or water/rain, is a good thing. Well done.
Looking forward to the shooting tests.
Ballistol emulsifies in water, it doesn't dissolve. Been using Ballistol since early may on all my firearms and tools at work (non-climate controlled and humid in winter and summer) and have had zero rust on anything. So far, it is working just as the can says, even cleans minor cuts and ends dry skin. Honestly.
I even heard somewhere it was edible. That was probably someone’s simplification on it being nontoxic as well.
Bear grease works great. However, like anything else I do in the rain or high humidity, I don’t so much keep something from getting surface rust on it as I do remove any rust that forms and oil. Rinse and repeat.
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I have had some great adventures shooting in the snow. I use to go with my brothers, brother in law, and some friends to an old farm way back in the Catskills behind Hunter mountain. We once went up in late Feb drove as far as we could and hiked a couple miles to get to where the property was. There was two feet of snow and we camped out. Cooked out on the fire, steaks, hot dogs, tin foil wrapped potato's with all the makings. At night we played cards told dirty jokes, and cleaned our guns. During the day we shot long guns at plywood targets most were percussion I had a flint plains rifle I made. although we had tents and sleeping bags and sleeping mats, with the accumulating snow, fire and long guns it had the feeling of being "primitive". It snowed all weekend and we had a couple mile hike out to the trucks but it was great fun. That was near 40 years ago and unfortunately we had no camera so no pictures.
Oh, and I almost forgot to mention, everyone there back then seemed to have their own slightly different way of keeping their rifles clean and rust free.
Rob
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Mike, I grew up in Corvallis and used to shoot at the club in McMinnville so I feel your pain. We always used Break free for rust protection and never had a problem. I would think Rem oil and other similar products would work. Never used Ballistal. plain floor wax on wood.
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Hornady One Shot. Sprays on wet, dries to a clean non greasy finish. Use it a lot, no smell and highly rated I rust prevention tests.