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General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: Davemuzz on December 27, 2019, 01:55:45 AM

Title: Poor groups and pillow ticking patch size
Post by: Davemuzz on December 27, 2019, 01:55:45 AM
I'm shooting my .54 caliber Green MT. barrel and not getting consistent groups. My 100 yard results are all over the place and well over a foot in size. I will get half of the shots in a 6" group, but then the other half is disappointing to say the least. I had one drop a good 20" at 100 yards.

I'm using (or have tried) loads from 80gr. FF to 110FF, a .530 Hornady RB and .018 pillow ticking with mink oil lube. The initial load into the barrel with the PRB is tight.....but not difficult. This leads me to believe I'm getting initial blow-by around the PRB.

So, I am going to try a .020 cotton patch. My question is ....is the cotton patch as tough as pillow ticking?

Thanks much.

Edit:  I entered the incorrect ball size of .520 when in fact the correct size of my shooting was using .530 Hornady RB.  I am awaiting Hornady .535 RB's to arrive.
Title: Re: Poor groups and pillow ticking patch size
Post by: recurve on December 27, 2019, 02:21:43 AM
I had to fallow Mr Dixons advise and smooth out the barrel with steal wool and thicker patch
(https://i.ibb.co/M80NLQR/DSC02845.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LQ7pfHC) form this at 25 yrds (nothing seemed to group) to this after steal wool and patch ,020 denim   50yrds

(https://i.ibb.co/68RnQ76/DSC03040.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cwcgqSz)
Title: Re: Poor groups and pillow ticking patch size
Post by: Joe S on December 27, 2019, 02:34:25 AM
I have the same barrel. I could not get it to group well until I used 0.535" balls and 0.018" - 0.020" patches. Also, I had to go to 90 grains of FF. Lighter loads do not group well at all, but with this combination I can shoot 2 1/2" groups at 100 yards (on a good day).

To answer your question, pillow ticking is cotton. How well your "cotton patch" works will depend to a large degree on how tightly it is woven.
Title: Re: Poor groups and pillow ticking patch size
Post by: rich pierce on December 27, 2019, 02:46:21 AM
Are you recovering and reading your patches? Otherwise, all is guesswork.

Any ball/patch combo that stays intact can give decent accuracy. Fiddling with ball sizes and patch combos is only useful for finding a combo that gives you a seal and stays intact. So reading patches is the main way of finding out what’s wrong with your load.
Title: Re: Poor groups and pillow ticking patch size
Post by: Davemuzz on December 27, 2019, 03:13:53 AM
I could not recover my patches today as the temp's were in the 60's (unusual for this time of year) and the range was very busy.

My current PRB is the .590 Hornady and the .015 patch. (As I stated above and I'm sure you guys have read) and this combo goes down pretty easy even after 5 or 6 shots without a barrel swab. That is what leads me to believe I'm getting some blow-by in these loads.
Title: Re: Poor groups and pillow ticking patch size
Post by: RichG on December 27, 2019, 03:22:27 AM
.520 is a small ball for a 54. In my green Mtn 58 I use a .565 rb and an .025 patch with mink oil. My 54 Colerain(round groove) I use a .526 and a .025 patch with mink oil. I would think with a .520 ball you would need a patch at least .025-.030 thick. And your patches will tell you if you're getting blow by.
Title: Re: Poor groups and pillow ticking patch size
Post by: Skychief on December 27, 2019, 03:28:32 AM
A lot of pillow ticking offered now is loosely woven junk in my opinion.

I've been using cotton duck material for years in some of my rifles, with complete satisfaction. 

Good luck, Skychief
Title: Re: Poor groups and pillow ticking patch size
Post by: Mike from OK on December 27, 2019, 04:10:07 AM
Are you recovering and reading your patches?

Rich speaks the truth... This is where I would start.

Mike
Title: Re: Poor groups and pillow ticking patch size
Post by: Davemuzz on December 27, 2019, 04:19:23 AM
I will collect a sample of patches the next time out. I did mic my bore and got this:

Land to land = .544
Grove to grove = .554

Now, I took these with my Dial Micrometer using the small\thin blade end. It's gotta be very, very close.

FWIW
Title: Re: Poor groups and pillow ticking patch size
Post by: Daryl on December 27, 2019, 05:13:31 AM
I expect blow-by & patch disintegration is your main problem.  For such an undersized ball, your patches are way too thin.
If you are going to use such a small ball, your patches must be MUCH thicker. Guys up here, find satisfaction with a .020" to
.022" patch, either denim, pocket drill, canvas  or linen and a ball that is only .005" smaller than the bore, at the most, .010"
smaller than the bore.
Your measurements do not look right for a GM barrel.  The bore should be .540" and the grooves should have .012" deep rifling.
That would produce a groove dia. (groove to groove) of .564".  Getting a good accurate measurement of the bore is not easy with
calipers.
The best way, if necessary, is to un-breach the barrel, run a rod up to almost the muzzle from the breech end and drive an oversized ball
into the muzzle, then push it out, catch it on a folded blanket and measure the lands and grooves on that ball. That will give an accurate
measurement.
Suffice to say though, that the bore will be VERY close to .540" and the rifling will be .010" to .012" deep for each groove. We've been shooting
these barrels for a lot of years and we automatically go with a .005" under calibre sized ball and 10oz. (.022") denim, or canvas, pocket drill or canvas patch.
This formula works in EVERY gun we've tested. All that remains is to find the powder charge the gun wants. We already know the ball and patch
combination will work with any powder charge you are likely to use.  The greater the charge, the higher the pressure and the tighter the combo must be.
That, is a given.
Title: Re: Poor groups and pillow ticking patch size
Post by: TonyM on December 27, 2019, 05:38:17 AM
For what it is worth:
I shoot all my GM barrels with a bore  size ball and .012 tight woven cotton patch, except the .54. I use .535 for that only because I cannot readily find a .540.
For lube: either my home made bore cleaner(water, soap, balistol) or olive oil.
Title: Re: Poor groups and pillow ticking patch size
Post by: Davemuzz on December 27, 2019, 03:33:12 PM
For what it is worth:
I shoot all my GM barrels with a bore  size ball and .012 tight woven cotton patch, except the .54. I use .535 for that only because I cannot readily find a .540.
For lube: either my home made bore cleaner(water, soap, balistol) or olive oil.

I'm going to give the .535 RB using my existing .018 mink lubed patch a try first. I like to keep it simple before I get into elaborate barrel crowning, barrel polishing etc. I very much appreciate all the responses to my post as I find the expertise on this forum to be the best. I have another GM barrel on my .50 caliber T\C and I shoot the Hornady Pa. Conical out of that barrel and find it to be frankly...."wicked accurate" for a flintlock.  Shooting the Pa Conical doesn't require patch size and lube as the hollow base expands to seal the charge behind it. To bad Hornady doesn't make these for the .54 Cal.

I've ordered the .535 ball and I'll post my results.

Again....Thanks!!
Title: Re: Poor groups and pillow ticking patch size
Post by: Dobyns on December 27, 2019, 08:49:45 PM
I keep various thicknesses of ticking and cotton duck or cotton canvas on hand.  The heavier pillow ticking is pretty tough, but I've never cut or blown a .025" cotton duck patch.

The "natural" colored cotton duck cloth at JoAnn Fabric is .025" and the dyed colors are thinner at .020".  My heavy ticking is .020" and the lighter stuff is .015".  Wash it in hot water and dry in high heat to shrink it.
Title: Re: Poor groups and pillow ticking patch size
Post by: WadePatton on December 27, 2019, 09:43:23 PM
Spinnin' tires without patches to read, but agree with the notion that your combination isn't fat enough. A different idea:

If you have a lot of 520's to shoot I'd start loading them up with a "shim" patch on top of your ticking patch. If you have some really thin stuff you might add it in layers to see how thick a combo you can seat.   

I run a 530 in .20"+ denim in my Colerain 54.  I have put a 535- maybe two(!) down that bore with the same patch, but it was an ugly wad of lead when it got to the charge. It just was easier to force it down than to pull it out-and that's too tight for sure and I won't do it again. The point is that just a .005" smaller ball made it all work out. 

The patches are re-shootable, and I do reshoot them when I find 'em.
Title: Re: Poor groups and pillow ticking patch size
Post by: MuskratMike on December 27, 2019, 11:01:07 PM
I also shoot .530 and a .015-.018 ticking patch soaked in Neatsfoot oil. I often pick up and reuse my patches. When I used .010 patches they were not reusable and had small burn through holes.
Title: Re: Poor groups and pillow ticking patch size
Post by: smallpatch on December 27, 2019, 11:44:43 PM
Dave, please don't take this the wrong way, but...... your balls are too small!
Title: Re: Poor groups and pillow ticking patch size
Post by: Davemuzz on December 27, 2019, 11:58:05 PM
Dave, please don't take this the wrong way, but...... your balls are too small!

Yes. Sometimes the truth hurts.   :'( :-\ 8) 8)

I shoot a lot of different caliber rifles\pistols during the year and reload for all of 'em.  Several years back I learned in interesting lesson when working up a load for my 38-55. I worked up the load using a WLR primer and when I got happy, I loaded up 100 rounds using a different CCI LR primer. Because of the long column of powder in the 38-55, the different primer actually decreased the velocity by 115fps. A first time "noticeable" velocity difference.

As such, the 100 loads were impacting a good 12" lower at 100 yards. Just so I wasn't crazy I set up my chronograph for the CCI loads and yup.....it verified what my little brain (little brain......little balls....I see a pattern here) was thinking.

So, I figure when the extremely low hit from the .54 Cal occurred it had to be from blow-by. As were the other "spray" POI RB's that were occurring. I could be wrong......but when the bigger balls arrive......hopefully my groups will tighten up!!   8)
Title: Re: Poor groups and pillow ticking patch size
Post by: David Price on December 28, 2019, 03:47:52 AM
Dave,

I have sighted in many 54 cal, Green Mt. barrels over the years.  I am amazed how consistent their bore size has been.  I have tried many combinations over the years  and I find a .530 ball with a .020 patch will give excellent accuracy with almost any amount of powder between 50 and 100 grs.    A .535 ball will also work well but I see no point in loading a ball that is that hard to drive down the barrel.  Of course if you want the best  your barrel will shoot,  you must do your home work and find the absolute best amount of powder, patch and ball size combination for that particular barrel. 

One other thing, always pick up your patches when shooting a new barrel, they will tell you more than we can.

David Price
Title: Re: Poor groups and pillow ticking patch size
Post by: Daryl on December 29, 2019, 07:18:00 AM
Good summary, David, although we disagree on difficulty of loading .005" undersized balls. I
find them easy to load with .022" patches- in any bore size & the smaller the bore, the easier
 loading.
Title: Re: Poor groups and pillow ticking patch size
Post by: rich pierce on December 29, 2019, 05:17:18 PM
Wade has a good solution there with a “shim” patch or doubled patching for round balls that are smaller than desired. Not as ideal as a close fitting ball but this definitely works.
Title: Re: Poor groups and pillow ticking patch size
Post by: Daryl on December 29, 2019, 09:28:15 PM
I have double patched in my .69, using a very small .662" ball. (16 bore ball in a 14 bore rifle)
The results speak for themselves. The .662" ball and 2 .017" patches. 5 shots in the group
although looks like 6 - just the way the paper tore under the top-left ball.
with the flinched 6th hole on the right side. range 50 yards.
This combination didn't quite measure up to larger than groove diameter, although it did shoot
well. Note, with the 3 dram charge, the pressure would have been extremely low- likely not over
5,000psi.

(https://i.ibb.co/5B0X5Nx/IMG-1418.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hD6xKP1)
Title: Re: Poor groups and pillow ticking patch size
Post by: David Price on December 30, 2019, 07:36:38 AM
This is two targets I fired  with a swivel breach rifle that I had just finished and sighted in.  I just used 65 grs.  of 2f powder,  and a .020 pre lubed patch.  The first picture is six shots, 5 of them joined, and one bad shot.  I fired three shots from alternating barrels.  The next picture is two more shots from alternating barrels.  You can see they would have joined the one big hole in the first target if I hadn't fired on a new target.

David Price
(https://i.ibb.co/DW7YpKr/IMG-2959.jpg) (https://ibb.co/T2H1LhW)

(https://i.ibb.co/rK9BBqV/IMG-2960.jpg) (https://ibb.co/FkpQQcF)

(https://i.ibb.co/mhX38b2/IMG-2961.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ygYrSdZ)
This is a picture of the rifle.
(https://i.ibb.co/CmZhNjz/IMG-3018.jpg) (https://ibb.co/djqG1Nr)

(https://i.ibb.co/5rjGDk1/IMG-3025.jpg) (https://ibb.co/k4D5nJG)

(https://i.ibb.co/Qbmw4gB/IMG-3024.jpg) (https://ibb.co/2nK4T92)
Title: Re: Poor groups and pillow ticking patch size
Post by: thecapgunkid on December 30, 2019, 02:11:10 PM
Daryl...I expect blow-by & patch disintegration is your main problem.  For such an undersized ball, your patches are way too thin.

Yup.  Every tight group I have ever gotten was worked out one thing at a time.  If I wanted a certain Caliber ball, I used different cloth until I could get a sharper report, no tears.

However...most of my shooting is target or trail walk based, so my gun was never a multi-use gun.  With all the advice given here,  You might end up with a longer sighting in process for each use.

I also wrote the right combination down.  Something happened at 70...
Title: Re: Poor groups and pillow ticking patch size
Post by: hudson on December 30, 2019, 05:29:39 PM
.520 is too small I would try .530 maybe .535. With patching the weave may not be very tight. Thanks to some one on the forum I found Army duct canvas, great stuff. Using .020 patching when switching to the 10.10 oz (.020) I had to go to a smaller ball size, from .535 to .530. A note it loads tight.
https://www.bigduckcanvas.com/army-duck/10-10-oz-36-inches-wide/
Title: Re: Poor groups and pillow ticking patch size
Post by: Davemuzz on December 30, 2019, 08:22:48 PM
I kept wondering why you guys were referring to a ball size of .520.  I went back to my initial post and see that I entered .520 ball size. That post is\was incorrect as the ball size I'm shooting is .530 with a .018 mink oil pillow patch.

I'm definitely sorry for the miscue.

Dave
Title: Re: Poor groups and pillow ticking patch size
Post by: Daryl on December 30, 2019, 11:19:04 PM
.530" and .018" patching should work fairly well, in square rifling, but would likely be too thin a patch for rounded, .016" deep rifling, or deeper yet.
The .54 cal. shooters here use about .020" to .022" with a .535" dead soft lead ball plumbers lead, or softer-yet wall sheeting.

The problems with thinner patching starts up generally, when powder charges get pressures up over 8,000psi or higher. I would think 85 to 95gr. 2F in
a .54 would give those pressures now, when using GOEX powders, & higher pressures with Swiss.

To answer your question, David, "So, I am going to try a .020 cotton patch. My question is ....is the cotton patch as tough as pillow ticking?"
i would suggest if the cotton was 100% cotton "Duck" or Denim, it would be just as tough as the ticking, maybe tougher.
Title: Re: Poor groups and pillow ticking patch size
Post by: MuskratMike on December 31, 2019, 01:39:16 AM
...and .530 is what I use with .015-018 ticking and 3F.
Title: Re: Poor groups and pillow ticking patch size
Post by: David Price on December 31, 2019, 02:51:09 AM
Daryl,

I don't know what the patching material is that the prelubed  patches are made of. I have picked them up on occasion and used them over again just to see if I could and they worked fine.

I purchase them from Eastern Maine Shooting Supplies.  I believe they are the same as OxYoke Shooting Patches. 


I load my rifle with 90 grs. of 2f for hunting with that same .530 ball .  I have never blown a patch even with that big load.  Once you establish your patch is tight enough so that it isn't blowing out, I don't see any reason to make it any tighter.

David Price


Title: Re: Poor groups and pillow ticking patch size
Post by: Daryl on December 31, 2019, 10:05:58 PM
I hear you David. I think the pre-pubed or dry OxYoke are or were usually a ticking material.
 
What I have found, if searching for the very best accuracy, tighter is usually better.
It depends on what you want or need from the gun.  As I've done most of my 'recent' shooting with my .69,

this tighter than necessary patching has proved to give the best accuracy as in much better accuracy than the
looser but "good enough" patching.
 
By saying the best accuracy, I am talking about shooting 'groups' 1/2 the size at 50 or 60 yards.  However,
the looser ,but adequate load was shooting 2" at 50yards and the tighter combo was shooting 3/4" to 1".

2" at 50yards and theoretically from that, 4" at 100 will kill deer out to 100yards, like they say, all day long.
Since I use this rifle as a competition rifle as well as for hunting (mostly competition these days), I "needed"
 the more accurate load.

It's all about the details.
Title: Re: Poor groups and pillow ticking patch size
Post by: Davemuzz on January 01, 2020, 06:26:43 PM
The "wait" for my RB order is proving to be a patience tester. I'm certain it's the holiday shipping rush that may have slowed somewhat. Anyway.....my .535 Hornady RB's is expected to arrive on Friday the 3rd.  Doubtful arrival will be in time to make it to the range.........oh well.   :-\
Title: Re: Poor groups and pillow ticking patch size
Post by: Davemuzz on January 05, 2020, 12:24:28 AM
Ok Gent's. Here are some photo's and a description of how it went using the .535 PRB with .018 Mink lubed PT. Now, in addition to shooting my .54 Cal I also shot my .50 Cal GM barreled flintlock. But the .50 cal was shot using all Hornady PA Conicals....so no .50 Cal patches. It was a busy day at the range and after I walked in the .50 cal (put a different sight on the back) I then shot the .54 cal. The first shot was a bit low.....but promising. I have the descriptions on the pic. Also, I gathered up my patches and I have them from today's shoot and the last time I was there. It never occurred to me to go out and clean up my previous season. And yes....they are mine as the flint hunters have their sighting already done. As for the patches I don't see anything that appears abnormal. I know this is only a 4 shot group.....but for today it's all I could do. My next outing I will focus only on the .54 caliber. BTW....all .54 shots were with 100gr. GOEX FF.  Comments appreciated.

(https://i.imgur.com/sclggqRh.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/RbNimbnh.jpg)
Title: Re: Poor groups and pillow ticking patch size
Post by: Daryl on January 05, 2020, 02:13:00 AM
Your 1st, 3rd and 4th shots with the .54 showed quite decent accuracy, like about 2 1/2", looks like.
Your patches, the ones with brown on them, show brown scorching from blowby. Looks like about
7 out of 12.  Likely, with 85gr. 2F, there would be no or very little blowby due to lower pressures.
 
However, 100gr. 2F GOEX is a good hunting charge, Dave. I would try a slightly thicker patch.  Note also
the top left patch shows what looks like slight cutting form a couple lands, however the other patches
do not show this. That is good. I would suggest your patches are just a bit too thin for that ball and
patch combination.

I would suggest more testing needs to be done with that combination as well as a tighter one, perhaps
with 8 or 10 oz. denim. If your muzzle has been smoothly crowned, then the 10oz. denim will give you the
best accuracy, with any load & loading should not be difficult.
Title: Re: Poor groups and pillow ticking patch size
Post by: Davemuzz on January 06, 2020, 05:19:23 PM
Thank you for your response. Just to clear up the shot pattern, shot #3 is 5" from the first shot. #2 was the "wild" 12" away, and #4 is 2" from the first.

I examined all of the patches very closely to determine if any had rifling cuts. None were found.

Loading the rifle with the larger .535 ball and .018 pillow ticking was somewhat tougher, but not "This is really difficult." I will give the denim patch a try and see how it fares. I will lube the denim using my TOTW mink oil.

I know I'm dealing with a .54 Cal and not my "had for years" .50 Cal GM barrel. The .50 Cal GM barrel shoots very small groups using 100gr. FF and the Hornady Pa. Conical with no bore button and obviously no patch. I believe that's because the hollow base Conical expands quickly upon ignition and seals the charge. I just think I need to shoot more (oh gosh....what a hardship!) and experiment with the suggestions made here.

Thanks!!
Title: Re: Poor groups and pillow ticking patch size
Post by: Carney Pace on January 06, 2020, 05:38:38 PM
Go back to basics...
What are you using for patch material and WHERE did you get it.  If bought at a fabric store it could  have some modern type material in it.  I have bought ticking and it had a % polyester content check the end label on the bolt of material. 

Carney
Title: Re: Poor groups and pillow ticking patch size
Post by: Davemuzz on January 06, 2020, 07:09:52 PM
All my current patches are pre-cut's from Track of the Wolf.
Title: Re: Poor groups and pillow ticking patch size
Post by: Davemuzz on January 06, 2020, 08:00:36 PM
I went to my bench to measure the lubed patches that I've been using. Now, (I thought) when I added new lubed patches to my existing one's from last year....that they were all from the same "batch."  It could be that I grabbed some old patches from several years ago that I used for my pistol.

I only say that up front as when I look at the lubed patches in my bag, I can clearly see they are two different shades. One is a slight yellow while the other is a bit on the clear side. So, I began to measure the thickness with my Micrometer and what I discovered is the "yellow" shaded one's all measure a pretty consistent .017 to at most .019 in thickness. However, the "new" or more clear patches measure a consistent .021 to .022.

I'm thinking the first time out this year my "spray pattern" was a result of using the thinner lubed patches. The second time out......could be a mix of the thin and thick patches.

In any event, I've now separated the patches into the correct size and my next outing I will load using the thicker patches. The pic's below show my measurements:

(https://i.imgur.com/N3EjMTIh.jpg)  (https://i.imgur.com/d8yNYboh.jpg)
Title: Re: Poor groups and pillow ticking patch size
Post by: Daryl on January 06, 2020, 08:53:41 PM
Keeping them separate is, of course, good.  Change only one thing at a time when working up loads.
I have the same calipers, Hornady & like 'em.  When measuring patches with my calipers, I squeeze the tines between
forefinger and thumb and read it, compressed.  With 10oz. denim, I "get" .0220" to .0225".  With the 8oz. demim
I measure .018".
Sry- mistaken about the shot placement. The target itself is larger than I thought. However, more groups should be made
& likely with both patches, Dave.
Title: Re: Poor groups and pillow ticking patch size
Post by: rich pierce on January 06, 2020, 10:12:24 PM
Good luck and I mean it. The amount of spread is mystifying.
Title: Re: Poor groups and pillow ticking patch size
Post by: Davemuzz on January 06, 2020, 11:00:03 PM
In looking at the TOTW web site I think I've determined why the two patches Old=yellow & New=white\clear are different. TOTW web site has pre-lubed patches they call "Wonder Lube" and on the web site those are the same yellow color of my old patches. So......I've really mixed up the components likely every other shot or more.
Title: Re: Poor groups and pillow ticking patch size
Post by: smylee grouch on January 06, 2020, 11:51:47 PM
Another thing you might want to consider with on again off again acuraccy might be lighting conditions or direction, bench technique or muzzle placement on the bench and your actual hold. The more consistent the better.
Title: Re: Poor groups and pillow ticking patch size
Post by: Dphariss on January 07, 2020, 09:45:22 PM
I'm shooting my .54 caliber Green MT. barrel and not getting consistent groups. My 100 yard results are all over the place and well over a foot in size. I will get half of the shots in a 6" group, but then the other half is disappointing to say the least. I had one drop a good 20" at 100 yards.

I'm using (or have tried) loads from 80gr. FF to 110FF, a .530 Hornady RB and .018 pillow ticking with mink oil lube. The initial load into the barrel with the PRB is tight.....but not difficult. This leads me to believe I'm getting initial blow-by around the PRB.

So, I am going to try a .020 cotton patch. My question is ....is the cotton patch as tough as pillow ticking?

Thanks much.

Edit:  I entered the incorrect ball size of .520 when in fact the correct size of my shooting was using .530 Hornady RB.  I am awaiting Hornady .535 RB's to arrive.

 I don't think there are any burrs in the bore since its not cutting patches.
 The scorching is not that unusual. Could be that 535 balls will fix. I would also use Speer balls over Hornady since the Speer balls in my experience are not "belted" balls.
Try FFF powder it might work better. FF works really well in many cases and not so well in others. I don't shoot FF in most RB rifles. Just never did.  The RB is very low inertia and a faster powder may work well.
Try putting a shooting patch in the bore before the patched ball. Just press it in an inch or so with the rod or starter then load the patched ball as normal.
Accurate loads seldom shoot the best. I don't know where people got so concerned with this. I shoot .500 RBs and a heavy patch in my match rifle and it loads OK even though I use what would be a high friction load compared to Tallow etc but I also wipe every shot. Most store bought patch lubes are grossly over priced. Buy some PURE Neatsfoot Oil by the quart or gallon. It also makes a great oil to mix with properly purified beeswax to make a great multi purpose "grease" type lube.

Dan
Title: Re: Poor groups and pillow ticking patch size
Post by: hanshi on January 07, 2020, 11:48:00 PM
When measuring thickness with calipers I squeeze the jaws with thumb & forefinger as Daryl described.  There are basically (for our purposes) two types of ticking.  One is common "pillow ticking" which measures, for me, around .014"; and then there's "mattress ticking" which is thicker/stronger and about .018".  I've used both with the mattress material being better.  Cotton duck has worked well for me at .019".  My favorite, in most rifles, is unbleached canvas - dropcloth - which is .022" to .024" depending on whether I use one or both hands to crush it.  In my radius groove bores I use nothing else except occasional denim, when I have any.  The canvas also works like a dream in the square cut bores.  I use only two lubes; Hoppes #9 BP Lube and mink oil.  Mink oil is for the bush and Hoppes along with mink oil for practice.  Fired patches look very nice, too.
Title: Re: Poor groups and pillow ticking patch size
Post by: coupe on January 08, 2020, 06:46:29 PM
Well I got to the range yesterday and burned the last of the 25 lbs I bought last year. I redid the stock on my made up 54 hawken, made up cause it is a conglomeration of extra parts I've had over the years, since it was all apart thought I would check it out. Any way I made up sets of patches with different lubes and thicknesses and kinds of patches and different amounts of lubes to try, I used it for deer season and it knocked down a nice doe at 50 yds, so I had a track record to compare. All at 50 yds. 80 gr. goex .530 cast ball 3f,1st 5 light castor oil .020 cotton twill(like a light denim) 2.5 low from poa. 1.5" group. 2d 5 light castor oil .017 pillow tick 1 " high 3.5" group, 3d 5 .017 pillow tick 2" high 1.5" group, 4th 5 pillow tick with mink oil 6" spread with both patches. 1st cotton twill with mink oil low 3" and 3-4 " grouping. Now I tried cotton drill like for pocket material and castor oil and mink. did not do well no go. The results come out to a damp, not dripping but wet, pillow tick .017-.018 patch is the best for mine. The barrel is a douglas 1" rebored by R. Hoyt, .540 with .012 round bottom rifling. lastly I shot out to 100 yds. zero poa at 100 was great with pillow tick and the damp patch, the rest were covering the twelve inch black,(except the one I pulled into the white oops)
coupe
Title: Re: Poor groups and pillow ticking patch size
Post by: Davemuzz on January 13, 2020, 10:40:49 PM
Lot's of information so I will attempt to make it as clear as I can.

First, the patches. I recovered as many as I could and out of 13 shots I recovered 7 patches. However, patches #6&#7 have cuts. I believe I did a double patch with those two...hence the cuts. 

Shots #1-#3 grouped well. I then tapped the rear site to the right to align the POI better. So really the first 4 shots grouped well.

Powder:  Shots #1-#9 all 80gr. FF.  Shots #10-#13 all using 80gr. FFF. The FFF groups were 10" spreads. Shots #7 & #9 have the farthest spread of 11.5"....but if I remove either and assume one of these shots were the double patch, then the group shrinks to about 8".

Shot #6 was a pause between flash & Bang and I'm sure I flinched. I have no real excuse for shots #6 & #7. (The in the white)

I did only two alcohol patch swabs. One after #4 and again after #7. The loading was not difficult before I swabbed.

(https://i.imgur.com/tudlfYxh.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/I4Rm3c2h.jpg)
Title: Re: Poor groups and pillow ticking patch size
Post by: Joe S on January 13, 2020, 11:00:01 PM
Davemuzz -

I have the same barrel. I shoot .535 balls with .018" patches, and FF Goex or 1.5 F Swiss.

At 80 grains, I get 10" groups like yours. At 85 grains, the groups tighten up a lot, and with 90 grains, I can shoot cloverleafs. Over 100 grains, and the groups start to open again.

Title: Re: Poor groups and pillow ticking patch size
Post by: Davemuzz on January 14, 2020, 12:30:48 AM
Thank you Jose. I've shot using 80gr and 100gr. (I have fixed measures for 80gr, 50gr, & 100gr.) It never occurred to me to attempt 5gr. increments.....albeit I do that all the time in .1 to .5gr for reloading my modern powder firearms all the time.

I don't often use my adjustable measure....just because. I'll try 85gr, 90gr, 95gr. on my next outing.
Title: Re: Poor groups and pillow ticking patch size
Post by: smylee grouch on January 14, 2020, 03:37:20 AM
If it were me, I would use a smaller aiming point (aim small-miss small) and shoot 10 shot groups with more powder. As has been said only change one variable at a time. If you have a lot of those paper targets aim at 6 o,clock at the edge of the black. Save your targets for further study.
Title: Re: Poor groups and pillow ticking patch size
Post by: Davemuzz on January 14, 2020, 05:24:23 PM
Thanks Grouch. I've already taped up the current targets holes and then created 4 more "aim" points in each corner with each square being 12" and then I put a FO dot in the middle of each. So, now I have 5 different POA to try each different load.

BTW the black circle on those CMP regulation targets are 13" in diameter.
Title: Re: Poor groups and pillow ticking patch size
Post by: smylee grouch on January 14, 2020, 08:09:08 PM
Sometimes the most fun is in the experementing(sp). The big black bull is too big for me thats why I try to concentrate on that junction of black/white at 6 o,clock.
Title: Re: Poor groups and pillow ticking patch size
Post by: Daryl on January 14, 2020, 09:22:15 PM
If the crown is smooth, there will be no cutting, even if using a double patch.
In my opinion, the group shape and size is meaningless, unless the ball and patch
combination is optimum.

By this, I mean, if there are problems with the patches, ie: cutting, scorching, burning
as in failing to seal, then the groups are meaningless.

I would concentrate shooting at 50 or 60 yards distance, until the groups look more like
this, then, go out to 100yards to fine-tune the load, as to powder charge and accuracy.

(https://i.ibb.co/DwRyjd4/100-8102.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ssVGX7j)

These groups were shot with re-claimed patches, originally shot from my .69.
Too, these groups were shot after the barrel had been shortened, some 4".

(https://i.ibb.co/YLspFCT/100-8103.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3CZB93Y)
Title: Re: Poor groups and pillow ticking patch size
Post by: Davemuzz on January 14, 2020, 11:45:13 PM
I went to the range today. I won't post all the pic's but I began with a .535 ball and 20-T mink lubed pillow ticking. At first I began with 80gr. FF. The first two shots were promising, then the next two were in another planet. Next was 85gr. and pretty much the same. Up-ed to 90gr. and again, two good and two bad.....but "less bad" than 80\85. I skipped the 95 and 100 as in previous shooting the 100gr. was not a good grouping. (BTW.....took 4 shots with each load tried.)

So, I went straight to 120gr. FF with the .535 RB and same 20-T patch. Not a good grouping at all. So then I dropped back to 110gr. FF same ball and patch and hey.....I got a 'decent" group. At 100 yards it was a 7.5" 4 shot group.

Then I figured that the rifle liked 110gr. of FF. So, just for kicks I took 4 shots with a .530 RB and the 20-T mink lubed pillow ticking. The 4 shots grouped at 4.5" at 100 yards.  ;D  So, I think I've "found" my load!!  The four .530 RB shots were my last because at that time I was pretty tired.

I do thank all of you for your post and letting me use you as a sounding board.

Dave

Edit: If I could find a bullet caster that did the Lee Real bullet with a hollow base, I'd buy 'em just to see how good\bad they would work.

(https://i.imgur.com/3Ekua87h.jpg)
Title: Re: Poor groups and pillow ticking patch size
Post by: Joe S on January 15, 2020, 12:18:17 AM
Congratulations Davemuzz! I'm glad I don't need 110 grains. My .54 kicks hard enough at 90 grains. I'm strictly a hunter, so I'd find a 4.5 inch group at 100 yards acceptable. I have never actually shot that far in the field. My shots are usually 40-70 yards.

One thing I forgot to mention - my rifle is also sensitive to powder. It likes Goex and Swiss, but doesn't shoot well at all with Olde Eynsford. I've never tried 3F, but a lot of folks use it, so maybe that's something else for you to try.
Title: Re: Poor groups and pillow ticking patch size
Post by: MuskratMike on January 15, 2020, 01:39:09 AM
Try the Goex 3F I use it in my .54 pistol and rifle. Works great and 70 grains of 3F gives the same velocity as 92 of 2F. Shoot all day and never swab the barrel. Give it a try.
Title: Re: Poor groups and pillow ticking patch size
Post by: Maven on January 15, 2020, 02:33:38 AM
Very happy for you, Dave!  Also, a hollow base Lee R.E.A.L. doesn't exist, but they offer Minie Ball moulds, which do have a hollow base.  Whether they'll work in a slow twist RB barrel is another matter.  If you obtain a few of them, you'll need to drop the powder charge to 60 - 70gr. FFg.  (Btw, they didn't group well for me in a fast twist Green Mountain bbl.)
Title: Re: Poor groups and pillow ticking patch size
Post by: Daryl on January 15, 2020, 03:59:49 AM
I found when shooting hollow based bullets in a .58 BilL Large bl. (60" twist, I think) I had to use a lot of powder to get decent accuracy.
With a lot of powder, the skirts had to be thickened up to handle it. Light "civil war-type" loads with stock HB bullets show very poorly and
 of course heavy loads needed to get the speed up so they'd shoot in a slow twist, blew the skirts just as Lyman found & published in their book.

This was in the late 70's so I was somewhat using their data, however I did have my own chronograph at that time (since about 1973). The thickened
 skirts shot just fine, however I was using 140gr. 2F GOEX up to 165gr. 2F GOEX with bullets to 675gr., the modified #57730(570gr. nominal- 675 modified)
 After a while, the recoil with the hooked butt plate kinda got me down. The rifle weighed 11 1/2/12 pounds with the 34" 1 1/8" straight octagonal bl.
The velocity with the 675gr. bullet & 165GR. 2f was 1,325fps and with a mere 150gr., was 1,250fps.  I still have that data along with the RB data.


(https://i.ibb.co/rQdPsVq/Mixed021907-6-Corr-zps8551e52b-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7Skc4qB)

(https://i.ibb.co/1zLzHhV/1977-at-Les-s-Diggins.jpg) (https://ibb.co/PDNDB3p)
Title: Re: Poor groups and pillow ticking patch size
Post by: Joe S. on January 15, 2020, 07:26:55 PM
Always a treat seeing the historically correct bell bottom trousers as well ;)
Title: Re: Poor groups and pillow ticking patch size
Post by: Daryl on January 15, 2020, 09:57:59 PM
Yeah - who is that skinny guy with those huge "burns"? ;)