AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: McGaffus on January 08, 2020, 07:07:35 PM
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Greetings!
To begin the new year with, I decided to buy an assembly kit from Pedersoli as first project. I already own a Pedersoli Le Page in .36 and a Zouave Rifle from Zoli in .58.
Because I ever wanted to get a flintlock rifle and to save some money (The Zouave is big fun, but expensive to shoot...) I want a small caliber long rifle or a carbine version
of it.
Because this project will be my first assembly kit I don't want to spend too much money but I still want a quality gun, so my choice is a kit from Pedersoli.
Unfortunately, the Frontier carbine and the Cub Dixie Carbine (short Pennsylvanian) are not available anymore. With .36 they would have been my first choice because
I could have used rounds and patches from my Le Page and there would be no need to buy even more stuff. But I can't dodge that, i assume.
So I have to choose between .32 and .45. I can't really decide that.
Reasons for .32 would be for me the cheap price for each shot. Small amount of Powder (I use swiss powder which is quite expensive in Germany) and small and cheap rounds
sounds quite nice. I don't have the possibility to test fire such a gun because I don't know anybody who owns one. But I assume the recoil is comparable with .22 lr.
How is your experience with that caliber in terms of accuracy and handling while loading and cleaning? I presume that the small ball and the small
patch could be non-forgiving when the round is not exactly centered on the patch and every little difference on the load could result in bad accuracy. Also how are those guns
to clean with such fiddly loading gear? Will i notice any difference compared to larger calibers?
I will use the gun on 50 metres. For that range I need a precise weapon which is capable to hit with a spread of 1" or even better. (Not that I can use it without
sandbags, but I love to know that my skills are the only limiting factor on my grouping). Is that possible with that caliber and flintlock?
I would really appreciate to hear some experiences :)
(And please excuse any language mistakes as I am no native speaker ;D)
Best greetings
McGaffus
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Cheap, accurate, fun. Small calibers are easy to load. If you have big hands and fingers then the tiny round balls are easy to drop.
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I have several .32's in both flint and percussion. They are fun and accurate. I see Dixie gun works has the kits for the scout and the frontier rifles. There is always the Kiber kit that can be had in .32.
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I had a .32 for a while & it shot quite well to 50yards. Indeed, oft times I even hit the 100 meter gongs with it.
Easy to load as long as soft, pure lead balls are used & quite economical on powder.
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I built one in 1972 and am still using it. I've had the most fun with the .32 than all of my other muzzleloaders. I shot it competition and won my first 100 yard first place ribbon with it. I shot lots of squirrels with it over the years and even took a groundhog at 125 years with it. No problem on accuracy. I used 30 grains of powder at 25 and 50 yards and 60 grains at 100 yards. I never felt under gunned in competition or in the field. I believe a .32 is a great choice for a small game gun and if I didn't have one, I'd be building one.
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I have a .32 custom made flintlock SMR (prior to the Kibler kits) and it is a joy to shoot. Would not trade it for anything. Balls are small but manageable. Great accurate shooter. Good luck in whatever you choose.
Dave
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I've owned two nice .32 rifles and still have the one in flintlock. I shoot the .36 more than the .32 but have squirrel hunted more extensively with the .32. You cannot go wrong with a .32 in flint or percussion. Easy & cheap to feed, very accurate, no more prone to fouling than the bigger guys and fun beyond words.
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I have a Pedersoli Kentucky in .32 flint and for the money it's a pretty decent gun. The factory ramrod leaves a lot to be desired and I replaced mine with a 5/16 hickory one. The lock sparks well enough, not the best I've ever seen, but enough for the gun to reliably fire.
My issues with it are:
If the lock breaks it will be difficult/expensive to procure replacement parts or a whole new lock.
The walnut stock is plain and dark... But that is simple aesthetics and does not effect the overall operation of the rifle.
The barrel is only 36"... I would've preferred a longer barrel, say 42". But it is accurate enough for head shots on squirrels.
Mike
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Pedersoli (regardless of type of firearm) is now and always has been mediocre at best. If you are just starting out or wanting to upgrade I would recommend finding a used rifle from a well known maker or a well made kit (providing it was finished by someone who knows what they are doing.) You will be in the long run much happier, have a better rifle, and one that can be repaired easily for about the same investment.
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1st of all, welcome to this forum. My .32 is a joy to shoot-hope you have children and/or grandchildren to help you shoot your new rifle. Won't be very loud, negligible recoil. I didn't have squirrels in the rocks and sage of Wyoming or Montana but I did enjoy eating a LOT of cottontails and also clobbered jackrabbits & sniped one turkey. My Bedford came with a brass 20 gr. measure and sometimes I used 30 gr. for longer yardage. Just be careful (close, short strokes on that 5/16" hickory ramrod so you don't crucify your hand). If there is 7000 gr. in a one pound can, @ 20 gr. you should get good milage!
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Fun, economical, and accurate. I shot this target at Friendship several years ago at 25 yards offhand open sighted flintlock. I dropped the last shot of 5 into the 9 ring. Load was 25 grains GOEX 3fg, ticking and a Hornady "O" buckshot.
(https://i.ibb.co/SQcZKxP/20200109-134414.jpg) (https://ibb.co/XyDGz4b)
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Nothing fancy for me. I just got a Traditions Crockett in percussion and it shoots better than I can. Not pretty but completely adequate. Low price rifle, 20 grns 3F, 310 prb and deadly accurate at 25 to 35 yards. Squirrel distances. What's not to like.
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New member McGaffus is probably some what limited in what he has for choices as he lives in Germany.
I have no idea if he could order a Kibler kit from the states. Seems our other member Adrie in Europe is really limited in what he can have and get or even build.
Best of luck in what ever you decide.
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McGaffus English is much better than my German.If he sees this I recommend that he contact Guenter Stifter,Hauptstrasse 55
in Trimbs,a small town West of Koblenz.The phone number I think is 9645555.Guenter may be able to fix him up with a Kleinbohr
Vorderlader.I have thought of one using a bullet if about 175 grains instead of a ball.
Bob Roller
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Cant go wrong with a 32 fun and cheap to shoot and most seem to be very accurate. I have a brass range rod that is built for a TC Seneca but I use it for my Cherokee also and leave the wooden rods under the barrel. Someone recommended to me when I got my first 32 to shoot at tennis balls for practice. Now I suspend tennis balls and ping pong balls in front of my range mound and on calm days I may spend several hours plinking at 25-50 yards off hand and my unsupported off hand shooting is getting much better. Sure hope you are able to locate one you wont regret it.
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Nothing fancy for me. I just got a Traditions Crockett in percussion and it shoots better than I can. Not pretty but completely adequate. Low price rifle, 20 grns 3F, 310 prb and deadly accurate at 25 to 35 yards. Squirrel distances. What's not to like.
I'm with Mushka on the Crockett. It is one accurate little rifle. Only detractors for me are the ramrod being too prone to breakage (all .32's!) and a problem with the back side of the hammer rubbing against the lock causing misfires. This was fixed easily with a bit of grinding off of metal on the backside of the hammer.
I have a Pedersoli and a CVA squirrel rifle also in .32. The Pedersoli is a little prettier but ties the Crockett otherwise. The CVA trigger is not so great but accurate in spite of that.
I guess if you're really up for money, get a custom built one from what's being said. I wouldn't know since don't own one in .32.
As usual, your mileage may vary.
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I can also recommend the Crockett .32. I used mine for years and it worked just fine from the get-go. Here's my Crockett and a typical target. The group size includes the called flyer.
(https://i.postimg.cc/bvx9zw39/PICT0433.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://image.ibb.co/bRbnnm/PICT0510.jpg)
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I have a Crockett great little 32 cal squirrel rifle.
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McGaffus - for 50 yard shooting, a .40 or .45 calibre will quite likely give better accuracy
than a .32, however, this it not to say the .32 will not shoot well at that range. There is
generally a big difference between 25 or 30-yards, and 50 yard accuracy. It takes more
powder to shoot at 50, while at 25 yards, even a 20gr. squib load will shoot well. My .32
shot over 2" at 50yards with the 20gr. charge, but tightened up with more powder (35gr.3F)
It was easy to shoot 1/2" to 3/4" with both the .40 and .45, however I could never get
that accuracy out of the .32. This could easily have been the barrel's fault, though, and not
the calibre, per se'.
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Welcome to the forum, keep us posted! :D
Al J.
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One very important thing I found with my .32, was that when using .311" balls and .022" denim patches lubed with mink oil,
the 2nd through 50th shots loaded easier than the first one - no "wiping" or "swabbing", of course (& although one was used,
a short starter was not necessary. Thumb start- no way possible, but simple pressure on the choked up rod was all that was
necessary to start the ball into the bore. Small balls conform into the bore with the patch, every easily, if they are dead soft.
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First, your target distance of 50 meters is about 54 and a half yards which is going to affect the accuracy of a little .32 because it will be bleeding off energy and velocity by the time it gets that far. That also means that the ball will be dropping and add to the number of variables in any given shot. That doesn't mean that it's inferior or lacks accuracy because it is a fine small game caliber. However, it doesn't sound like hunting is one of the purposes you have in mind for this new rifle. Since you already have a .36 then you already have a more than adequate small game rifle. Also, if you will be shooting steel plate targets, the .32 may not hit with enough energy to hear from the firing line. I own a .32 Crockett rifle and after watching other members of my shooting club use the same caliber for shooting steel plate targets during our monthly competition matches, it would not be my first choice for such an event.
Having said that, I would recommend that you get a flintlock kit in .45. At 50 meters the lead ball will still have enough velocity that drop won't be as much a concern as with the smaller caliber. It will also strike a steel plate with more authority (energy) and can be heard from the firing line. It is also a nice small to medium game caliber, it you have that opportunity in the future.
While I agree that there are better kits available than Pedresoli, they are by no means low quality or junk. You can however, turn any kit into junk by rushing through the assembly and finishing process so regardless of what you get, please ask questions here if you don't understand something or for just good advice as we are fortunate to have many experienced craftsman on the forum. Many of us have been in your shoes so to speak and will gladly give you advice.
I speak a little Texas German so I appreciate the fact that the two languages do not translate well, especially literally. When I was a teacher I emphasized that point to my students. Good luck and please let us know what you decide upon.
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I can vouch for the fact that a .32 AND the .36 fired at gongs can be very difficult to hear much past 50 yards. I prefer the .45 or .50 for that reason. Even the .40 makes a lighter "tink" on gongs that can go unheard at times.
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LOL- it's worse if the guys you're shooting with, are deaf as well as blind.
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Kinda like most of us! ;)
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Exactly, hanshi.
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(https://i.postimg.cc/nsNSK9Rj/306-E9-E0-E-CBC9-48-D7-B0-D7-6-D20-E5-BB10-F2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/nsNSK9Rj)
My .32 JP McCoy a great shooter only thing better would be if it was flint
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Hello all, I am really looking forward to shooting a .32 (top rifle, not cat) I inherited from my father. I have never shot a flintlock but have been shooting guns and reloading ammo since I was 6 years old(50+ years). I have some older 3F and 4F genuine black powder I want to take this .32 out tomorrow and shoot. I have some fresh Graf's black powder being shipped out today. Should I wait?
I have a small collection of 121gn round balls I thought I would start with. Read somewhere that 1 gn per caliber as a rule, so maybe start with 25gn 3F and flashpan half full of 4F? Are there miniballs for .32?
At this point I really can't help answer the OP's questions but maybe in a couple days I will be able to add more to the topic.
FYI- Top gun, the .32cal, is a kit of unknown origin my father assembled with a Green Mountain barrel and a MSM Hawken style double set trigger.
The lower is a .45 cal and I don't know much except it is a Green Mountain Barrel and a Davis double set trigger.
Chuck
(https://i.ibb.co/LJkxgXg/20200227-060530.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nng71N1)
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Hi Chuck - you will need round balls for the .32.
121gr. balls sound like .44 cal. to me. .32 round balls, ie: .310" to .311" should weigh around 45gr. in pure lead.
Pls, do not think of using slugs - and no, no one makes slugs or slug moulds for that rifle.
Patched round balls are what a flintlock is designed for.
Starting at 20 or 25gr. is a good thing. The REAL black powder you have is likely fine. My .32 shot best to 50, even 100 yards,
with 35gr. 3F GOEX. Yes - I use 4F in the pan, but 3F works almost as well. 4F is faster, though many guys think not. This shows
the difference is actually very close.
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Oops my bad, 46gn on the .312" and 126gn .441". Never have shot black powder and I know I inherited slugs for the .45. Asked just to see the answer you gave Daryl on the .32 slugs.
I am really wanting to go shoot the .32 particular, I know it will be fun. The range I shoot at is a mile from my house but drove by there yesterday and there was about 18" of snow on the ground and it will be about 20F by the time I will be able to go out.
Thanks Daryl
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The snow on the ground is good! 1} you can find your patches easily, and 2) you can spot un-burnt powder quickly.
Kind of envious, wishing I were going shooting. Today is the first in a long time to NOT wear a jacket. I do have on thermals and a flannel shirt tho,
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Has anyone shot Ballistic Products #1 1/2 buckshot (.310") in their 32's?
I know it has a small amount of tin added to it but I think it is only 3%. A whole bunch cheaper than buying Hornady's. 2 cents apiece vs 10 cents apiece, I am just concerned about using a slightly hard ball in a small caliber. Looking for some feedback from you squirrel shooters who have .32's
I might have asked this question allready if so just chalk it up to another "Muskrat" senior moment.
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I have shot it with absolutely no problems in both my 32 Cherokee and Seneca. Patch thickness varies between the two but great accuracy at squirrel range.
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Has anyone shot Ballistic Products #1 1/2 buckshot (.310") in their 32's?
I know it has a small amount of tin added to it but I think it is only 3%. A whole bunch cheaper than buying Hornady's. 2 cents apiece vs 10 cents apiece, I am just concerned about using a slightly hard ball in a small caliber. Looking for some feedback from you squirrel shooters who have .32's
I might have asked this question allready if so just chalk it up to another "Muskrat" senior moment.
I used to use Buckshot in my 32 Douglas barrel 50 years ago.
If I were going for precision at 50-60 yards I would find a good HV load for it. It will likely shoot best with 30-40 grains of powder at this distance. It will still be more wind sensitive than a 45 or a 50. A good RB rifle with the right load and patch lube should shoot all touching at 60 yards if the weather cooperates and the shooter is up to it.
Often best accuracy is found with a relatively high friction patch lube like teflon or water soluble oil/water mix with the water evaporated away. I think I used to use 1:5 oil:water. Patches have just a slight oil feel when dry. But this will require wiping every shot. Sperm Whale Oil (not the oil refined from blubber) was actually higher friction than Neatsfoot or Tallow and would also soften fouling. I expect this is why it was popular in the past. But its off the market now forever.
Dan
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Has anyone shot Ballistic Products #1 1/2 buckshot (.310") in their 32's?
I know it has a small amount of tin added to it but I think it is only 3%. A whole bunch cheaper than buying Hornady's. 2 cents apiece vs 10 cents apiece, I am just concerned about using a slightly hard ball in a small caliber. Looking for some feedback from you squirrel shooters who have .32's
I might have asked this question allready if so just chalk it up to another "Muskrat" senior moment.
If you can load it, you can shoot it.
I found the Hornady buck shot that was .320"was too hard to load with any of my patch materials, yet pure lead cast balls .320" loaded easily with 10oz. denim (.0225").
This turned them into little elongated bullets with both ends rounded. They were VERY accurate at 50yards with 40gr. 3F GOEX. The .311" balls shot best with the same
patch and 35gr. 3F GOEX.
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So got to the Blue River Sportsman's range about a mile form where I live and someone was kind enough to have used a frontend loader to do a wonderful job moving the 18" of snow from everywhere, bravo! I have to agree Craig, awesome day with all the snow.
Got the 32 out and realized i had left the push rod in the kitchen. Glad it is on a mile or so. First shot with a clean barrel was within 4" of bull at 50 yards. First time shooting dad's gun. Second shot had a hard time pushing the round down the barrel, and had to recock and fire for an ignite on the 6th try, no sparks. Gonna have to re do the flint I am sure and missed the targer bu a foot, high and to the right. 3rd shot same hard to push down and no spark. Like a neophite and pyro I am, found a cigarette half burned, lit it with wife's lighter and touched off the pan, mistake! Pulled away blackened concussed hand which was half frozen already, won't be doing that again. Escaped with only a scratch though.
So i need to figure out a little better flint to steel setup. Probably have some flint from my Oklahoma arrowhead collection, had a habit of keeping anything resembling pretty flint so...
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www.trackofthewolf.com sell flints. Measure width and length and they will have them.
"October Country" also sells flints, seems to me.
Lucky to not be burned badly. Yes- lesson learned.
Another good thing, is to not cock fully, until the pan is closed. The act of bringing the cock to full bent position
might jar off the hammer from full cock. That can end up in a severe burn as well.
Napping (chipping the edge) the flint is something you must also learn. I suspect if you Googled it, you'd find a video on
napping flints.
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That happened to me years ago and I spent weeks picking little bits of burned powder particles from my palm with a needle. !@*%&@ if I didn't get the all, though!
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I learned it from Taylor when he saw me cocking to full bent before closing the frizzen.
He got burned when it happened to him. Thankfully, his warning prevailed.
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Yup hanshi, used the dissecting microscope to disect powder residue out of 3 places on my thumb and Texas salute digit.
After looking at some napping videos on youtube pretty sure that I am lacking enough napping. Lol. I will probably find me some good flint here in Colorado or nearby to try my hand at fabricating some flints. Used to make some pretty decent arrowheads some years back.
I don't see any indication of a manufacturing stamp on the lock, trigger is MSM. The frizzen is quite stiff to open and close, is that normal?
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If the frizzer is very stiff , lubing may be the simplest solution; or a cleaning .
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Hello,
I have a Dixie Tennessee Mountain Rifle in .32 that is a squirrel killer. Sitting at the bottom of an Oak ridge, I get my daily limit. I really like the sights - I can see them - Guess that helps. I use a 30gr load of 3f Goex black powder. .310 ball with a tight patch. I have to use a short starter to get the ball going down and use a synthetic rod, so I don’t break the wooden one, while in the woods. The rifle is a pleasure to shoot. Clean up seems to take a few more patches than my larger caliber rifles, but I have never really counted. I just run them until they come out clean. This rifle will be converted to a Flint when I get a couple of projects done around the house and have the extra funds to get a L&R lock for it. I have been saying that for quite some time. Until then, it is my go to small game rifle.
(https://i.ibb.co/ngSp1XL/DSC-5203.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8KVkxy7)
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What's the stock wood? I kinda like the coloration.
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Hello,
I have a Dixie Tennessee Mountain Rifle in .32 that is a squirrel killer. Sitting at the bottom of an Oak ridge, I get my daily limit. I really like the sights - I can see them - Guess that helps. I use a 30gr load of 3f Goex black powder. .310 ball with a tight patch. I have to use a short starter to get the ball going down and use a synthetic rod, so I don’t break the wooden one, while in the woods. The rifle is a pleasure to shoot. Clean up seems to take a few more patches than my larger caliber rifles, but I have never really counted. I just run them until they come out clean. This rifle will be converted to a Flint when I get a couple of projects done around the house and have the extra funds to get a L&R lock for it. I have been saying that for quite some time. Until then, it is my go to small game rifle.
I recently acquired the same rifle. I’m also planning on converting to flint and had to have some work done on the existing caplock to keep it safe. Just did some load work up over the weekend.
(https://i.ibb.co/ngSp1XL/DSC-5203.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8KVkxy7)
(https://i.ibb.co/t26n0xQ/C8954794-18-AB-4-A1-A-A864-60-B32-A54-EE7-A.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dpvXNLj)
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You know, seems like I remember DGW saying that the stocks were made from cherry wood. They may be, but it definitely doesn't look like any cherry that I'm familiar with. My son has the same gun (well used ). James Levy
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If I remember correctly the stock is Japanese Cherry.
Ken
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Looks good and shoots good; what's not to like?
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I read that it is Cherry. It is a bit more brown in person. I'm not a photographer so it did come out interesting in the picture as opposed to true to life.. It was made in Japan by Miroku. Its a great woods gun and canoe tripper when scouting new haunts in the Adirondacks.
P.S. Wingshot - that is a nice group.
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Sorry, fellas. I do not share your enthusiasm for that 25 yard group from a rest position. It is not really a good offhand group either.
Now there are likely good reasons for this.
Sights, weather, powder charge, patch.
All can have a positive or negative effect on the group size.
What I see in this equation is the patch thickness being VERY poor. With a .311" ball, it is easy to load a .018" to .022" thick denim patch. That one will put 5 shots into a quarter sized hole at 25 yards, shot from a rest. When younger, that was the size of normal offhand groups.
I am not saying this to put anyone down, but as a teaching lesson, to eliminate mediocre performance objectives nd to get guys striving to always attempt for improvement.
On page 1 Robin Henderson posted an excellent offhand target. That's what to strive for with your rest shooting. When you accomplish that, doing it offhand is the new goal.
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Yup. Robin Henderson's target is excellent - no question. Can wingshots group be improved? Not a question. Striving for perfection and not accepting mediocracy as a life goal - yes. Lesson about patch thickness - very welcome. That is why I am on this site - trying to learn all that I can about what I love to do.
I give kudos to Wingshot for posting his target. I didn't put one up. It can be very intimidating to do so, given the quality of the individuals who frequent these pages. But - nothing ventured - nothing gained. Valuable lesson learned. Time to set up a few targets and see what I can do.
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Sorry, fellas. I do not share your enthusiasm for that 25 yard group from a rest position. It is not really a good offhand group either.
Now there are likely good reasons for this.
Sights, weather, powder charge, patch.
All can have a positive or negative effect on the group size.
What I see in this equation is the patch thickness being VERY poor. With a .311" ball, it is easy to load a .018" to .022" thick denim patch. That one will put 5 shots into a quarter sized hole at 25 yards, shot from a rest. When younger, that was the size of normal offhand groups.
I am not saying this to put anyone down, but as a teaching lesson, to eliminate mediocre performance objectives nd to get guys striving to always attempt for improvement.
Absolutely correct. I was in the early stage of load development when that group was shot. After an afternoon of trying this and that I ended with a 20gr. 3f load, .311 cast ball, .015 pillow ticking and spit for lube. At that point I was able to consistently smack my 3” swinger at 50 yards offhand. I my DGW .32 used and the bore was less than perfect. I had some serious scrubbing to do just to make it satisfactory. I will continue to refine the patch/ball combination as the weather continues to improve. All in all it’s a fun rifle to plink with and with practice, I’m sure it’ll plant a few squirrels.
On page 1 Robin Henderson posted an excellent offhand target. That's what to strive for with your rest shooting. When you accomplish that, doing it offhand is the new goal.
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Spot-on Brian and Wingshot. To improve is the goal. After being in the sport for a while, you will learn there are "prescriptions", so to speak, that will work well in most rifles and smoothbore. The results vary, of course as all guns require slightly different combinations to achieve their best performance.
What we've found is about .018"(8oz. Denim) is the thinnest we even try. I prefer 10oz. Which I measure at .0225", however the last 10oz. Denim I bought is only .020" with the same measuring device. I expect it will work in all.my guns except for the .69 which has always preferred 12 and 24oz. Denim (.030 & .034")