AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: lexington1 on January 18, 2020, 06:32:20 AM
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I know 18th century English military arms were generally English walnut with little or no figure in the wood. Has anyone ever seen a curly stock on a Brown Bess? This is a 2nd model 1777 pattern Bess with a gorgeous striped stock. It is marked to the 19th Reg't of Foot. Does this look like English walnut or? I have several other Brown Besses and the wood grain looks close to this, but no curl.
(https://i.ibb.co/VpZPcBJ/20200117-153230.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tPtWTCQ)
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Hi,
The guns shown below are stocked in English walnut. Yes it can have curl. No, I've not seen a Bess with a highly figured stock but there is always a first.
dave
(https://i.ibb.co/d7560v2/tony-s-finished-rifle-14.jpg) (https://ibb.co/YbL87Sk)
(https://i.ibb.co/bsz5MZ5/finished-fowler-7.jpg) (https://ibb.co/pfJjB8j)
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Wow, those are two beautiful guns! I was a bit surprised to find the Bess with the curly stock. I was always under the impression that figured wood was considered a defect on 18th c. English military guns. Also I had never seen curly English walnut before. Yet here are three examples. I love this hobby. It is a continual learning process!
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This is a 2nd model 1777 pattern Bess with a gorgeous striped stock. It is marked to the 19th Reg't of Foot.
(https://i.ibb.co/VpZPcBJ/20200117-153230.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tPtWTCQ)
Do you have any additional pictures of your Short Land you can share?
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I will have to get some. I took this on the porch while holding the Bess in one hand and snapping the pic with the phone in the other. It was snowing outside like crazy.
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Actually I looked on my computer and found a few crappy pictures. I will get a set of better ones when the weather clears up. Do you have any idea what the stamping on the butt is for? The cock has been replaced with an earlier one, and approx. 6 inches of the forend wood has been replaced.
(https://i.ibb.co/TqdpbFB/pix928629078.jpg) (https://ibb.co/sJzk6Mv)
(https://i.ibb.co/s1D7QGd/DSC-0395.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://i.ibb.co/CPj6Hjg/DSC-0396.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://i.ibb.co/6B9XVWJ/pix519193441.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
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Butt stamps are probably rack numbers. Dewey Decimal system for Supply Sergeants.
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Long Land and Short Land muskets, while in the King's Service, usually had rack numbers engraved into the escutcheon plate on the wrist using an alpha-numeric system of a company designation using a capital letter over a numeric weapon number. Note, I stated usually.
The so-called Third Model Bess with the 39 inch barrel did not have a wrist escutcheon plate so "rack numbers and unit designators were sometimes branded into the buttstock. There are many Third type Besses with Canadian Militia names so branded.
As usual, with all of these subject, there are many exceptions. See Stuart Mowbray and Erik Goldstein's excellent book, The Brown Bess, for many examples.
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Here is a top view
(https://i.ibb.co/VVqmm31/20200118-155918.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LSZ55vF)
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Butt stamps are probably rack numbers. Dewey Decimal system for Supply Sergeants.
I was thinking after it's original service life. If It got sold off to foreign service, had it's original regiment annihilated and was transferred onto another unit during active service, those are all reasons for secondary rack numbers. It seems to me. I could be wrong.
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You could be right!
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LEXINGTON--You have a very nice Bess. Company "E" musket #47 very nicely marked on the barrel as well. The 19th Regiment of Foot arrived in America on June 3, 1781 and left for Jamaica on Dec13, 1782. The Regiment received four Warrants for arms; March 9, 1772, Sept 3, 1772, Jan 9 1776, and Apr 19, 1776. The arms issued on Apr 19, 1776 were from Dublin Castle.
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Thanks for the information. I love early Besses. I have managed to collect four regimentally marked examples. What's weird is that they happen to be numerically in order. I have a 17th Reg't Bess of the 1769 pattern from Dublin Castle, an 18th Reg't Bess of 1742 pattern, the illustrated 19th Reg't Bess, and a 20th Reg't of 1769 pattern from Dublin Castle.
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An impressive collection, you are fortunate.
At one time I owned a 79th Regiment Short Land. They had one recruiting company in New York. The rest of the regiment was in Jamaica. They, along with the 1st Battalion of the 60th Reg went on an expedition to Nicaragua in Feb 1780 to capture a Spanish fort on the St John River near Lake Nicaragua. Man at Arms published my article discussing the expedition as well as the 79th Regiment marked musket in Vol 30, No 5, 2008.
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That's very interesting. It's great studying the story behind these. It seems like every time I acquire an original that I learn a lot of interesting history that I would otherwise have never even thought of.
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Late to reply here, but I've seen many Bess muskets with figured stocks, early and late period. The collection at Colonial Williamsburg has several if I recall correctly. Here is a photo of a 1756 pattern (with post 1764 "Tower" marked lock) marked "17th REG", with a dark but curly walnut stock. I've got poor light at the moment and don't have other decent photos of the gun, but the buttstock also has some figure as well. The 17th arrived in Boston in Dec. 1775 and Jan 1776, fought at several major engagements throughout the war, and today there's a strong reenacting group that portrays the 17th.
(https://i.ibb.co/BnkH3kW/IMG-0306.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mNprTpZ)
Lexington, I'd love to see photos of your Dublin Castle 17th Reg bess.
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Here a few pics of the Bess. It has a later cock on it, but it's definitely of the 1769 pattern.
(https://i.ibb.co/F5gzLWD/IMG-9735.jpg) (https://ibb.co/K2FWpGr)
(https://i.ibb.co/G9vf42r/IMG-9743.jpg) (https://ibb.co/m0CrVqP)
(https://i.ibb.co/0F79jNz/IMG-5406.jpg) (https://ibb.co/D8JMDXj)
(https://i.ibb.co/q5ghsVH/IMG-20140124-184438-854.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Wtz7yjr)
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Lexington,
January 1990 Gun Report article had a photo of a 17th Regiment Short Land Company "A" No. 29. "Consecutive Pair!!! :)
(https://i.ibb.co/SNd92LH/17th-rgt-29-edited-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tBxWSdn)
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I have a 17th Reg't Bess of the 1769 pattern from Dublin Castle, an 18th Reg't Bess of 1742 pattern, the illustrated 19th Reg't Bess, and a 20th Reg't of 1769 pattern from Dublin Castle.
Hey Wes, Could you post a pic of the Dublin Castle locks?
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Wow, that is insane! I have saved information through the years with other 17th Reg't marked Besses I ran across, but consecutive numbers. Just wow! I never saw this article before. Now I must begin my quest to find that issue....
Thank you very much for showing this to me. It just made my day!
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Here you go John. The first picture is from an XX Reg't 2nd model Bess. The very tip of the lockplate is missing at the rear. The second is the 17th Reg't Bess, and the third is a second model Bess that wasn't regimentally marked. I no longer have it.
(https://i.ibb.co/7CDRY45/xx-bess.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jfYW6R2)
(https://i.ibb.co/vdLQqJs/17th-regt.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bvN2mrH)
(https://i.ibb.co/1qTbxZ4/IMG-9723-Copy.jpg) (https://ibb.co/xj63Qhr)
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Hello, I have a very early German flintlock smooth bore gun mybe around 1720 with a very dark wallnut stock if you look at them in the right light you see all over stripes like curley mapel. There are also such stripes in other types of wood. So why not in a early Brown Bess. Here are pictures of the weapon and one where you can see it quite well.
Monty
(https://i.ibb.co/QrpT8Lj/Bildschirmfoto-2012-01-30-um-16-32-29.png) (https://ibb.co/jgbQVmZ)
(https://i.ibb.co/Yf5JQjR/Bildschirmfoto-2012-01-30-um-16-32-42.png) (https://ibb.co/ssTcR3m)
(https://i.ibb.co/qd1yy3f/IMG-9159.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vHzww6G)
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Beautiful gun. I had just always assumed, I guess, that figured wood was kind of a no no in military guns.
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Wow, that is insane! I have saved information through the years with other 17th Reg't marked Besses I ran across, but consecutive numbers. Just wow! I never saw this article before. Now I must begin my quest to find that issue....
Thank you very much for showing this to me. It just made my day!
Hi,
I wonder if the consecutive rack numbers indicate the muskets were part of the haul captured by Washington's army at Princeton. The 17th and 55th regiments were the primary units involved on the British side. I always love seeing photos of Brown Besses. After building and restoring several, I am a devoted fan.
dave
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Me too! That is such an interesting period of history. Every time I pick up an original I try and learn as much as I can about the regiment.
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Thanks for the pictures!
Do you guys have any idea of the time period a flat faced Dublin Castle flintlock would have been made? I have that lock as a replacement lock on one of my longrifles, and am guessing 1820-ish, or so?
Thanks, John
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I think Dublin Castle ceased production of Ordinance arms around 1798 so it's earlier than your estimate. What size is the lock? Is it a pistol lock? Maybe throw up a few photos ;)
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Okay, I'll dig it out of the safe and take a few pictures.
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Here's a couple pictures of the Dublin Castle lock. I don't know if the lock is original to the gun, but it's every bit as rusty as the barrel, so has been there for a long time. The internals looks old and original.
(https://i.ibb.co/9vjrR31/Lock.jpg) (https://ibb.co/YWGLvT1)
(https://i.ibb.co/PQZ0Kzj/Lock-tail.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dg0xFJM)
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See page 166 of De Witt Bailey's Small Arms of the British Forces in America for similar pistol lock Pattern 1777 Extra Flat Pistol Lock. Looks as though the cock on yours has been changed, should be goose neck type.
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See page 166 of De Witt Bailey's Small Arms of the British Forces in America for similar pistol lock Pattern 1777 Extra Flat Pistol Lock. Looks as though the cock on yours has been changed, should be goose neck type.
Looks like a pistol lock assembled at Dublin Castle from various parts.There's a few anomalies;The lockplate seems older than quoted as it looks to have a slight 'banana' shape ?? . It has the later (say post c.1763) short sear spring as we're seeing two screws behind the cock. Some of the older Dublin made locks have a ring necked cock but WESTbury may be correct in saying the present one is a replacement?? The frizzen spring is a replacement as it has a later type finial.
So I would say a later second half 18th. century Dublin Castle pistol lock repurposed for an american longrifle.
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Good morning Niall,
Good observation.
Are you my pal from the BMF channel? ;)
Richard.
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The cock on the lock of JTR's lock "appears" to be one from the Pattern 1800 & 1805 Infantry Rifle per Bailey's Small Arms book, mentioned in my previous post, page 75. That lock, per Bailey, was 1-1/16 x 5-3/8.
The crown on JTR'S lockplate is the "cartoonish" crown per Bailey's Small Arms book, shown on page 166.
From JTR'S photos, the fence of the pan is to the rear of the end of the barrel. Also it appears as though whoever adapted the lock to the rifle needed to drill and tap a new rear lock bolt hole as it wiped out the upper part of the crown on the plate.
Niall's observation about the lock on JTR'S rifle being an assembly of disassociated parts is very accurate. American Ingenuity at its best.
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Good morning Niall,
Good observation.
Are you my pal from the BMF channel? Richard.
;)
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Here's a couple more pictures.
I took a close look in the lock mortise, and this isn't the first lock in this rifle, so this lock is a replacement. The stock has been broken through the wrist area, so perhaps the original lock was lost or damaged at the time.
When I bought the gun, an old friend thought it might be a Kentucky made rifle, but I lean more toward a New York gun now, either way probably made about 1820 or so.
Thanks for your thoughts so far!
John
(https://i.ibb.co/HYwj4r2/20200129-101250.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6b9kw4Z)
(https://i.ibb.co/jbpFcvF/20200129-101314.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6rd53R5)
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Even though it's a pieced together lock, it is pretty cool.
I'd be interested to see the fit of the cock to the square of the tumbler. In other words, was there any modification needed to mount the replacement cock.
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Kent, The screw came out easily and the cock off the tumbler shaft with a bit of persuasion. The square on the shaft measures .232", and the square on the cock measures about .240", so a pretty good fit.
The timing at the at rest position of the cock is a bit off, as I had to pull it back about an eighth of an inch to allow the shoulder of the cock to rest on the top of the lock plate.
Pulling the rear trigger (the forward one is missing) does set off the lock, so in fact the gun would work as is.
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That's all great info John.
So I think the fact that the timing of the rest position is off somewhat argues that the cock is in fact a replacement. However, the lock functions correctly, and that is the most important point.
If you have any photos of the rifle and can post them, would be great.
Thanks for indulging my curiosity, appreciate it.