AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: LynnC on January 27, 2020, 01:59:40 AM
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Im trying to solder a brass sight onto a Wrought Iron fowler barrel. Everything filed bright and absolutely clean. Thin film of paste flux applied to mating surfaces and a tiny thin sliver of solder placed between sight and barrel. I hold sight down with a thin blade and apply heat from underside of barrel. When solder flows and bead shows I remove heat and let cool.
Solder covers bottom of sight. None sticks to barrel.....
This works for me on thin steel barrels for sights and lugs. What am i doing wrong?
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Welcome to the Club de Solder Woes. I'm running about 25% success rate on my solder attempts.
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I don't know much about the science and technology of soldering, but I have my best success using the paste solder with no flux other than what's in the paste.
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I second what longcruise said.
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thanks for the commiseration.....I will say when I filed the barrel it looked like cast iron. The carbon inclusions.
In 30 years Ive bored, reamed, rifled, fitted plugs, cut dovetails in Wrought Iron barrels. But this is the first time i ever tried to solder a sight to it!
Im stumped.....
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I used that solder paste on my trade gun build. The sight held tight but both pin lugs popped loos after a year. I experiment a bit trying to get the knack of soldering and so far it's frustration.
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Some words to remember if you want to solder on steel. Zinc Chloride & 50/50 lead tin mix solder. Tin first and don't over heat it. You will have success
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Thanks guys but this is a wrought iron barrel. I reckon its the first time i ever tried to solder something to one.
Im sure the antique gun restorers have run into this many a time.....
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You only got the sight hot enough to melt the solder. The barrel wasn't hot enough.
Tin both surfaces individually, then put them together.
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I heated from under the barrel holding the sight down on top till the solder flowed. Tried twice. Filed all clean. It just didn't stick to the bbl. It did stick to the eight base fine
I can try tinning barrel and see if that works. Thanks
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If the surface of the metal gets any oxide/blueing, the solder will NEVER stick. You have to be pretty careful, keep the flux on it, and keep the color off, and get the solder to flow and stick.
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Perhaps i overheated...
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It's VERY easy to overheat. I am not the neatest solderer, but I can get a good bond, after a fashion. I will often have to brush it off with a wire brush and work with it to get it to flow and stick good.
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You only got the sight hot enough to melt the solder. The barrel wasn't hot enough.
Tin both surfaces individually, then put them together.
I’m a plumber and I’ve often soldered dis-similar metals and the above advice is correct.
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If I'm soldering, it probably on a round surface. I can manage to get the sight or lug tinned, but every time I've tried to tin the barrel it has rolled right off onto the garage floor. What is the trick to tinning the round surface?
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No trick. If it doesn't stick, it's because it's not hot enough, or oxidized/blued, or not enough flux. Keep the metal clean, keep it fluxed, keep if from turning color, and keep touching your solder to it, and when it gets hot enough, the solder will melt and stick right to it. Avoid letting your torch blow around the barrel, as that will melt the solder, often even before it touches the barrel. That's what makes it roll off.
There is a solder-stop material that you can paint on around the area that you don't want solder to stick, though I've never used it, though it would be a good idea. I've just always cleaned/filed/sanded off the excess.
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I appreciate all the advise. Im likely out of practice as i rarely have need to solder anything.
I’ll regroup and try again in the am. Thanks.....Lynn
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Use a good acid flux and tin both parts first.
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for all the more experienced guys??? would a 'pickle' of 10% hydrochloric acid help to break the surface of the wrought?
asking cuz an old welder/brazing guy once told me to pickle an iron part if I encountered difficulty in soldering!
Just wondering what you guys would say??
trying to learn and learn!
Respect Always
Metalshaper/Jonathan
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Exact same problem 2 months ago with underlugs! I was using Brownells low temp silver solder and tinning on practice scrap barrel pieces...not the same as a 42 inch barrel.
Mass (a lot of steel to preheat in your barrel) vs. a tiny piece of front sight and thermodynamics are fighting against you. Next time I do it I am sanding clean my mating surfaces, slowly pre-heating my barrel on coals or hot plates then torching slowly under my targeted area just before tinning and melting the solder in place.
Good luck.
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You can use the graphite from a "lead" pencil to keep solder from sticking where you don't want it to. Also, while it is still hot, wipe it with a cloth rag to remove over flow solder.
The guys above are right - the barrel isn't hot enough at the spot being tinned or soldered. When you use the flame on the bottom of the barrel, it - the flame - will wrap around and melt the solder - but the barrel is not yet hot enough for solder to adhere. Takes a lot of patience, for sure, but tinning both sides of the joint will help a bunch.
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For non-ferrous metals, paste flux works well, but for steel and iron, you need an acid flux. I don't know what acid it is though. sorry.
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You guys recommending acid flux are right. Ive been reading all i can find on the net and for wrought iron, acid flux is called for.
The barrel wall is about .080” out at the muzzle
All have given good advise. I’ll change my flux and try tinning the bbl.
Thanks.....Lynn
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Rosin flux is for non ferrous metals, and electrical almost exclusively. Even copper plumbing is usually an acid flux from my limited experience also.
Mike
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Yep, listen to Goo, Stophel &c
Acid flux. No I don't know which "acid" is used, but just fer I have soldered 18% chromium -nickel-silicon-aluminum high temperature alloy with acid flux & common lead-tin solder.
I am not a genius in the workshop but as an engineer/metallurgist I know something about soldering & brazing. Been messin' with this stuff over half century now.
It really is easy. In truly Ancient Times when everything did not come in a pretty plastic container (Ike was President) we used ammonium chloride. In our small town truly antiquated (we didn' think so) school shop. Yeah, we actually went out & bought plain ol' ammonium chloride.
Strength. Well, its My Nickel right now so you get a free lecture. Yeah, different grades of solder or braze metal have different strengths. Remember, though, what you care about is strength of the joint. Huh? Ain't it the same thing? Nope. Lead-tin solder is pretty soft stuff but the joint itself can be stronger. No I no longer remember how to explain it. But the joint needs to be thin, the two pieces of steel/brass/silver/whatever need to fit closely together. The thinner that layer of solder the stronger the joint (within reason, I guess)
As to my front sight to barrel joints, yeah they tend to break in the solder when, ahh . . . abused. Doubt that I made the joint thin enough.
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Success. Tinning bbl worked. Sight stuck to bbl good and tight.
I think Stophel had it figured out. Never got bbl hot enough.
I bought the solder and flux years ago for copper plumbing and have used it on everything ever since. The solder is lead free (95 tin 5 antimony i think) and the paste flux Oatley no. 95 lead free tinning flux with 8% silver lead free solder in it. On back it says it has zinc chloride and ammonium chloride in it. Im guessing thats the acids.
Anyway it worked. Finally....
The sight is more the old barley corn type. Tiniest thing i ever tried to solder to bbl and i reckon thats why the sight tinned with the heat coming round the bbl. I never had trouble doing RR pipes to under ribs or such.
Thanks for all the good advise. Boy do i need practice.....Lynn
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Goo had it right too. Acid flux. I had never read the flux tin. I just used it for all my soldering jobs. Thanks Goo
Again thanks to all for the help...Lynn
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Glad it worked out. Yes, tin the surfaces first with acid flux and lead solder. I use a little ball of steel will held in pliers to work the solder on the metal to tin it evenly. After I wash of the acid flux and re flux with rosin. This avoids rust separating the joint later.
The first post mentioned, "Thin film of paste flux applied to mating surfaces " . That is release agent not flux. There is zero chance of the solder sticking when the surface is contaminated with oil or wax.
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Now Im confused.....if you dont flux the mating surfaces how do u get the solder to take to each surface? I thought the flux prevented oxidation of the metals including the solder so they would flow together.
I used the same tinning flux the whole time.
I put the acid paste flux on the underside of the tinned sight just before i soldered it to the tinned spot on the barrel. Is the tinning flux a wax or rosin?
No doubt im doing it wrong......but it stuck 😉
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You have to put flux on the surface before you try to put the solder on it.
I just use the ordinary gray greasy type flux for ordinary plumbing solder. I never could get rosin to work at all.
Once you're done soldering, the flux will dry and get ROCK hard. But it is water soluble, so dunk the part in water and let it melt the flux away.
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Yes. Thats the dark grey greasy stuff i have. It says 8% silver bearing solder in it. After soldering i wiped it off with a wet rag. Cleaned up easy.
I rarely have need to solder anything. It was my faulty technique and not the wrought iron barrel.
Learn something new every day 😉
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I am going to have to solder some thin (0.025”) steel or (0.032”) brass barrel lugs on a Rice squirrel barrel and a Rice Southern Comfort barrel want to solder them instead of dovetailing them. I have some Dunton’s Norkorode Tinners Fluid that saves it contains hydrochloride acid and zinc chloride. Would that be a good flux to use with normal 50/50 lead/tin solder? Or, would there be a better solder to use? I also have some Fast 50/50 solder, Swift 95, and Stay Britt solders. Would one of those be better for this purpose. I look to all you soldering experts to learn the best and most effective for a novice. Thanks in advance to all!
elkhorne
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Use this stuff, fool proof and you can't knock it loose with a hammer, (I tried).
(https://i.ibb.co/zZ6qGKn/silver-solder-paste.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
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:o solder with a match or a lighter! Man i gotta try that. Im sure it needs a torch fir barrel work. Sounds to good to be true but if i can pick it up at wallyworld i will give a chance.
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I couldn't find it locally so I ordered it off ebay.
I am working on a nightmarish precarve that has a 3/8" web at the breech. I had to add a piece to the DST to make it work. I use this solder, my second add on for a trigger bar, The first was on my first scratch build to take the slop out of the single trigger, years later the solder is still holding fast.
I know this looks awful but it works just fine, no more precarves for me.
(https://i.ibb.co/mCbtKYv/trigger-bar-add-on.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fYqtWK8)
Here is why I had to do the add on, I have posted it many times before. The precarve lock inlet put the bottom of the pan below the side flat, I added a piece to bring it up where it is supposed to be. If I went deeper with the triggers I would be in the ramrod channel with the trigger plate.
(https://i.ibb.co/3BMJT1J/lock-inlet-complete.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9sVMpnM)
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RE Davis was making these triggers with extra meat and leaving them dead soft for easier shaping.
(https://i.ibb.co/tYzPrTy/48-A29-D0-F-9938-4-CDC-B8-F4-FE9-EF65-E585-D.jpg) (https://ibb.co/TP1q3xz)
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On another build I bent a long rear trigger to fit in the trigger guard properly. After I hardened it, without thinking I gave it a little tap to get just a little more bend out of it. Big mistake, the trigger broke in two. I called Davis, he was out of them and put my order on backorder, Track was out of them as well.
In the meantime I made a scarf joint on my trigger pieces and soldered them together with the solder paste shown above so I could use the rifle.
A month passed, then six and still no trigger from Davis, Track got them back in stock and I ordered one. A year later the replacement trigger is still in my parts tackle box, I will change the broken trigger out someday, it works pretty well like it is.
(https://i.ibb.co/XCSVsSz/trigger-browned.jpg) (https://ibb.co/P6wthw5)
upload pic (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://i.ibb.co/NF8Xc6B/trigger-guard-inlet-001.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
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You can find Solder-It at Home Depot. This stuff is really easy to use. Just do not overheat.
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Now Im confused.....if you dont flux the mating surfaces how do u get the solder to take to each surface? I thought the flux prevented oxidation of the metals including the solder so they would flow together.
I used the same tinning flux the whole time.
I put the acid paste flux on the underside of the tinned sight just before i soldered it to the tinned spot on the barrel. Is the tinning flux a wax or rosin?
No doubt im doing it wrong......but it stuck 😉
I am sorry, I read the OP as "PASTE WAX" instead of "paste flux". Dyslexia can be frustrating!
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Soldering can be frustrating too ;)
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I have done a lot of soldering double barrel ribs which is steel to steel but I used liquid acid flux from Brownells. Rosin works for copper and brass. They also have several low temp solder. Acid flux will take the finish off.
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The low temp solder is called TIXX, Brownell's has it. Good for soldering the fine silver strips used for decorative inlays,
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Last year I got a bunch of solder from my father-in-law but have no idea what is is composed of. My best guess is that it is probably 50/50 lead/tin solder as he worked most of his life for the phone company. Does anyone know a way to test the solder to confirm if it contains lead? If it is lead, there appear from this article that there are lots better choices out on the market today. Thanks!
elkhorne
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Elkhorne, I've always heard that the 50/50 and 60/40 is the best stuff.
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Last year I got a bunch of solder from my father-in-law but have no idea what is is composed of. My best guess is that it is probably 50/50 lead/tin solder as he worked most of his life for the phone company. Does anyone know a way to test the solder to confirm if it contains lead? If it is lead, there appear from this article that there are lots better choices out on the market today. Thanks!
elkhorne
Get a lead test kit from the home center. Draw on paper with your solder. Draw on other paper with known lead, say a 22 bullet. Test your marks with the lead tester. Purple is positive.
I prefer lead-tin solder it seems to work easier that the new tin-silver blends. At least for me. Lead solder has been used for centuries with good results. Newer or better may have to do with anti lead hysteria? The eutectic solders are not as strong.