AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: MuskratMike on January 28, 2020, 09:49:05 PM
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I know the pistol was a common weapon on board ships of war, foot officers and on horse mounted military units of the 18th century. But just how common do you all think they were for colonial militia, Rangers, long hunters, and settlers? I just don't find much written about them leading me to believe they just weren't that common. Any ideas or knowledge out there? If you have imput do you think they were mostly smooth bore or rifled?
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I know the pistol was a common weapon on board ships of war, foot officers and on horse mounted military units of the 18th century. But just how common do you all think they were for colonial militia, Rangers, long hunters, and settlers? I just don't find much written about them leading me to believe they just weren't that common. Any ideas or knowledge out there? If you have imput do you think they were mostly smooth bore or rifled?
I think in civilian life they were purchased and used where necessary, just as in the 19th, 20th, or dare I say, the 21st century. Wherever you needed a CQB weapon. Gamblers, highwaymen, tavern owners in rough country, gentlemen who liked the other side of the tracks or who were prone to confrontation. If affordable, a last line of defense weapon in a frontier cabin, I’m sure there were a few in Boonesboro but not many. Smoothbore I would say. Loaded with buck shot in perhaps half the cases. Just a guess. They were certainly a luxury I would think. We often lose sight of the obvious, waiting for the documentation. They were no different than us. Not one wit different.
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I tested buck and ball loads in my .54 pistol with amazing results at 12 yards. The 3 buckshot always radiated evenly
around the round ball. and all stayed on a standard silhouette at that range. This was from a rifled barrel and the main ball
always struck in the 10 ring. Heck of a good self-defense gun, I'd say.
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My understanding is that for the "average" civilians, they were somewhat rare. (at least pre-civil war)
Cost to obtain, and a "lack of accuracy" (not quotes) were the main reasons.
(Then as now, some folk just cannot hit the broad side of a barn - when inside the barn - with a handgun. Sadly, some folk suffer the same malady with a rifle and/or shotgun. My mum, for one.)
Most folk just went with a ("a" as in "singular") long gun and called it "good".
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Daryl: what load and ball size did you use? Over powder and over shot cards or did you use tow?
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There was a brief discussion of this over at the Muzzleloading forum some years back, and Spence10 found a couple of references to pistols in the hands of travelers contained in Running Mad for Kentucky, including a guy that was armed with, IIRC, a sword, two braces of pistols, and a rifle; another guy who was mounted and armed with a brace of pistols and a sword but no longarm; and a group of travelers in which the women were armed with pistols and stood guard at night with their husbands.
From this we can conclude that they were present out along the transappalachian frontier, at least from the Revolutionary period onwards. I think that all those references came from the 1776-1794 period, in which the Whites and Indians were at war, and none of them were folks out hunting or engaged in everyday tasks - they are all (as the title suggests) accounts of people traveling from East of the Appalachians into Kentucky.
I own a copy of this book, but it is currently in storage.
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Daryl: what load and ball size did you use? Over powder and over shot cards or did you use tow?
I actually loaded a patched ball .526" of pure lead, with 3 .030" buck shot on top with a card over those. Charge was the normal charge reduced by 10gr. so 45gr. 3F.
The bl. has a 60" twist, so needs the large charge to get it to shoot. With the 55gr. 3F load, it shoots very well indeed. Best so far is 2 1/2" at 50 yards,
but usual is about 3".
(https://i.ibb.co/PmYC6Y8/54-English-Holster-Pistol-right-side.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7Yzy1zF)
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Trade pistols were made. That should tell you all you need to know.
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Trade pistols were made. That should tell you all you need to know.
Yup. Pistols don't show up in my diary, but i have a houseful of them....
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I tested buck and ball loads in my .54 pistol with amazing results at 12 yards. The 3 buckshot always radiated evenly
around the round ball. and all stayed on a standard silhouette at that range. This was from a rifled barrel and the main ball
always struck in the 10 ring. Heck of a good self-defense gun, I'd say.
I always figured a very large caliber smoothbore flintlock pistol loaded with #1 buck and a stout charge of powder was an excellent self defense weapon for an up close “street encounter”. If a look at the very large hole in the end of the barrel doesn’t make the perps decide jumping you is a bad idea, just touch it off. Those that aren’t “perforated” will probably be rolling on the ground, crying like babies and swatting at their burning clothes. By the time the smoke clears and any of them can get up, you can be down the street and around a corner.
Never mess with old people. They aren’t able to fight and will just shoot you.
Mole Eyes
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I tested buck and ball loads in my .54 pistol with amazing results at 12 yards. The 3 buckshot always radiated evenly
around the round ball. and all stayed on a standard silhouette at that range. This was from a rifled barrel and the main ball
always struck in the 10 ring. Heck of a good self-defense gun, I'd say.
I always figured a very large caliber smoothbore flintlock pistol loaded with #1 buck and a stout charge of powder was an excellent self defense weapon for an up close “street encounter”. If a look at the very large hole in the end of the barrel doesn’t make the perps decide jumping you is a bad idea, just touch it off. Those that aren’t “perforated” will probably be rolling on the ground, crying like babies and swatting at their burning clothes. By the time the smoke clears and any of them can get up, you can be down the street and around a corner.
Never mess with old people. They aren’t able to fight and will just shoot you.
Mole Eyes
Yes. A large cloud of fire and smoke also makes room for a fellow to draw his edged weapon, which never requires reloading-if that's what needs to happen.
Bob. Indeed.
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I would imagine it would be a welcome fast backup shot if you missed with your longarm or maybe more than one target. Cant say how common they were but I can say I would have carried one if at all possible. The one pictured below goes with me on every hunt just incase of a bad shot or some fluke thing happens. Mine is made by Joe Schell. 62 cal smoothbore
[img width= height= alt=014" border="0]https://preview.ibb.co/hUehpa/014.jpg[/img] (https://ibb.co/n6QNpa)
(https://preview.ibb.co/dUbv9a/008.jpg) (https://ibb.co/e7Bj2v)
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I like that diary comment! I am a better rifle shot than pistol but I own a lot more pistols and I carry a pistol everyday. It would be hard to put yourself back then but if I were living then I would have carried one. Not all pistols were large and depending on the situation accuracy wouldnt have to be great at close range. I never fired a flint or percussion pistol with buck and ball but boy that would work well against a highwayman, street thug, or Indian......
Rob
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This is mine. Lowell Haarer made, 13-inch Rice swamped .54 caliber with a Chambers Late Ketland lock. Not easily concealed or even carried, but can't wait to try that buck and ball load. Ones like this were probably carried on the pommel of the horse or tucked in the belt or sash. Also those who shoot only patched round balls in .54 caliber what is your load? I never have claimed to be a pistol shot and need to improve the accuracy. What distance can you expect reasonable results from?
(https://i.ibb.co/jRfmQrx/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9tg61rf)
(https://i.ibb.co/kh6JjNH/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8j4bq1K)
(https://i.ibb.co/gjyb30C/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/X2XfbnT)
(https://i.ibb.co/xhTvSH8/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/y0jTnSB)
(https://i.ibb.co/Vwb2gwH/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NTfZ9T1)
(https://i.ibb.co/VmDHSz0/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/C2vJ7Yp)
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Daryl: what load and ball size did you use? Over powder and over shot cards or did you use tow?
I actually loaded a patched ball .526" of pure lead, with 3 .030" buck shot on top with a card over those. Charge was the normal charge reduced by 10gr. so 45gr. 3F.
The bl. has a 60" twist, so needs the large charge to get it to shoot. With the 55gr. 3F load, it shoots very well indeed. Best so far is 2 1/2" at 50 yards,
but usual is about 3".
(https://i.ibb.co/PmYC6Y8/54-English-Holster-Pistol-right-side.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7Yzy1zF)
Mike, like I said, with patched round ball, 55gr. 3F. This pistol also has a .45 calibre fast twist barrel that I use 25gr.3F in for target work. When shooting the 200gr. REAL bullet in that
.45, I use 30gr. 3F. That load will shoot 1" off bags, at 25 yards.
(https://i.ibb.co/1qDcf11/IMG-2619.jpg) (https://ibb.co/KqMnjdd)
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I have known muzzleloader hunters that have carried a pistol as a "just in case" back up. I wonder back in the day if that was common in hunting situations?
Rob
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I don't know how common they actually were BITD, but the auction houses appear to have a lot of them these days. Perhaps they had a higher survival rate than long guns-being easier to hide or put away and less valuable for scrap and not seeing as much use as long guns.
Here's a pile of 'em: https://www.invaluable.com/antique-flintlock-pistols/sc-PA6JAMBEUG/
And that's not the only pile of them out there on the auction blocks.
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I'd want one if fighting Indians. Maybe two.
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We have a nice recovered British flint pistol in our local Montana museum. The tag info said it was found under a sandstone overhang along the banks of the the Musselshell river years ago. I need to go back and get some measurements maybe for another build. As I recall it was a Wogdon and had a brass barrel.
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Muskrat, I have a .54 flint rifled pistol. It does very well with 30 grains of Goex 2f. First time I shot it I used 40 grains of Goex 3f and that was way too much recoil. Mind you I shoot pistol with one hand.
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I believe that the western expansion of this country, following the return of the Lewis and Clark expedition, marked the beginning of pistols being considered important. Another big uptick in the importance of handguns came with the gold rush in California.
Hungry Horse
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Greetings Everyone,
The published journal of James Smith of "Black Boys" fame includes info on a confrontation on the road near Bedford (PA) which describes him being stopped by what seems to be at least 2 fellows with pistols. One of which was snapped at him but it didn't go off. Another one was fired and killed another traveler. Smith responded with his rifle but was taken after it was empty. This was in the late 1750s or the 1760s.
I would have to consult my bookshelves at home for a closer date.
Kevin
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Believe the Spanish were big on their Soldiers and Militia having pistols, also seemed to prefer the short sword or machete to the tomahawk.
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I like the idea of an overcoat pistol like this one. Big bore .58-.70 caliber, and easy to conceal with a 5" barrel. Big ball at close range stops problems in a hurry
(https://i.ibb.co/Dfvp3nw/ON1900-01.png) (https://ibb.co/60TB65D)
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Close range and very close range.
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Interesting thread. What is the safest way to carry one of these loaded pistols ?
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The one I shared has a sliding safety that engages the tumbler at half-stock. Perfectly safe to carry on half cock in a pocket, or tucked away somewhere.
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Not primed with frozen stall.
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I carry mine in simple leather holsters. I don't prime 'til I'm at the firing line station.
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Very fine pistols showing up on this thread. I spent many years carrying a pistol daily as an LEO but very seldom carry one now. The exception is when I'm headed to the bush. I learned long ago in Georgia that once you wander in the woods it's foolish not to carry. So anytime I go out I'm armed. Never worried about two legged threats but the wild (feral) canines were ubiquitous and a very immanent or at least a very existential threat. I did get into some "sticky" situations, but being wood wise (a little at any rate) extricated myself without shooting. Which, by the way, would have enraged more than a few attackers. Two neighbors, a retired couple, up the road weren't so lucky and were attacked and killed by a pack. They were simply taking their normal walk along the road. So out of habit I routinely pack a sidearm when hunting.
My only pistol is a .50 flintlock of modest size. I carry loaded in a holster that keeps the frizzen closed tightly and the cock at half cock. The 10" barrel is capable of accuracy on par with my modern target centerfire. Thirty grains of 3F is the all around load and about as much recoil my hands can take during a shooting session. In the woods I load a minimum of 40 grains.
(https://i.ibb.co/LJ2ry9m/PICT0650-1.jpg)
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Sad to hear about the neighbors. I do agree in the woods, any woods go prepared and armed. I never want to die for a lack of being able to shoot or shoot back!
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My 50 caliber 12" barrel flint pistol. Accurate out to 50 yards. I use a PRB for target but for hunting I use the Hornady Pa. Conical with 50gr. FF.
(https://i.imgur.com/4zFvIFhh.jpg)
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Spent most of my life in the woods or swamps, and always carried a modern weapon. I used a shoulder type holster, as many things caught on a hip holster. More worried about feral hogs than dogs, tho I have come across some packs of those. Shoot the closest one, the others will run off. That is not always true of hogs, however.
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I like the idea of an overcoat pistol like this one. Big bore .58-.70 caliber, and easy to conceal with a 5" barrel. Big ball at close range stops problems in a hurry
(https://i.ibb.co/Dfvp3nw/ON1900-01.png) (https://ibb.co/60TB65D)
It you shoot such a thing be sure you use enough powder.
I shot an original English 58 percussion overcoat pistol with a light charge, 15 grains IIRC, (its been a while) ball bounced off the piece of pine I shot at and whacked me on the shin. Hurt like $#*!... Wished I had not been so cautious with the old thing. Increased the powder charge for the next shot. Ball then entered the wood a little way and no rebound.
Dan
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My 50 caliber 12" barrel flint pistol. Accurate out to 50 yards. I use a PRB for target but for hunting I use the Hornady Pa. Conical with 50gr. FF.
(https://i.imgur.com/4zFvIFhh.jpg)
A 50 caliber ball from a 6" FL pistol will make 800 fps with 40 grains of FFF. This load at 20-25 yards would shoot completely through a grown Antelope buck and throw up a cloud of dirt on the far side. Would penetrate all the heavy shoulder muscles of a Mule Deer buck. Angled through the lungs and stopped at the off side hide at the diaphragm. I sold it and it later killed a really POed cow elk that my friend's client had shot in the front leg as she came for him (she had been cornered by terrain features). Head shot in the forehead got to and borke the vertebra at the back of the skull. I never saw any need for a conical in a ML for hunting. But the gun writers always liked them. If the maker was buying advertising anyway.
Dan
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A heavier projectile has always proven to penetrate deeper than a lighter weight projectile. I'll take 240gr. moving slower vs a 180gr. chunk of lead moving faster. It's just ballistics. I shoot whitetail which are a much tougher breed than the antelope. I base this on fact as I've shot antelope.
It matters little what the gun writers tout. Just run the ballistics. Science is science.
FWIW
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A heavier projectile has always proven to penetrate deeper than a lighter weight projectile. I'll take 240gr. moving slower vs a 180gr. chunk of lead moving faster. It's just ballistics. I shoot whitetail which are a much tougher breed than the antelope. I base this on fact as I've shot antelope.
It matters little what the gun writers tout. Just run the ballistics. Science is science.
FWIW
This is not consistent with the findings of many. I'll let them chime in. But I'm pretty sure Daryl has written here about the horrible record of conicals on moose. I'll never use anything but a ball on game. Long distance targets are a different matter altogether, but I am convinced by those with much more field experience than I, that balls are best for critters of this continent. Lots of "ballistic science" fails to adequately explain the ball/critter interaction and effectiveness. But then this is another subject, and not on the topic of this thread.
Here's some discussions from the past on the subject, if you're interested:
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=50837
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=10719
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=42134
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=1952
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The lack of straight line penetration on moose with the conicals was due to the 48" rate of twist of the rifles used.
Winchester rifles of the buffalo era also had that conical/rate of twist problem and were "despised" by the buffalo hunters (apparently).
That makes perfect sense.
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Essentially....anything hit at 50 yards or less....the projectile type doesn't make a big difference. At 100 to 125 it could make a difference. OTOH, the issue has always been....and will continue to be debated. None of this changes the type of projectile I shoot.
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Essentially....anything hit at 50 yards or less....the projectile type doesn't make a big difference. At 100 to 125 it could make a difference. OTOH, the issue has always been....and will continue to be debated. None of this changes the type of projectile I shoot.
I strongly disagree, based on my own experience in the field, as well as my friends. Back in the 80's we shot conicals in our TC " Hawkens " rifles when hunting . More power and lethality was our reasoning, but the results proved otherwise.
Deer were lost and never recovered more than once or twice . Shoulder shots or if you hit bone...down they went , but lung shots not so much. Since switching to round balls, we haven't had this problem . 90% of all shots taken here are inside of 50 yards.
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...and if we are still talking pistols as the thread suggests why would anybody be shooting one at anything much past 25 yards?
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Well, things have digressed, however you are right to bring up the 25 yard limit. In taking a look at the historical references , I found some HBC stock lists of both pistols and "plain" pistols. This dating from the early 1800's
I believe that they were probably more common than we used to think, although economics play a part. If could afford it, I definitely would have had one [ or two ]
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...and if we are still talking pistols as the thread suggests why would anybody be shooting one at anything much past 25 yards?
I don’t think they would’ve been.
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Just started re-reading The Northwest Gun By Hanson. He quotes from La Salle's memoir. " a hundred pair of pistols, to be worn in the girdle" This was in the 17th century, to outfit his expedition down the Mississippi.
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My western take on the matter is a pistol is just short of a necessity. Since most trappers, mtn. men and wanderers had a horse the extra burden could have been carried in a pommel holster. Lewis and Clark had pistols on their journey supplementing the spontoon and knives carried. At night the rifle is nearby but the pistol is in the bedroll.
kw
montana
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There are only four pistols recorded as being taken on the Lewis and Clark Expedition and all four were "owned" by Capt. Lewis. Two, were obtained from the Schuylkill Arsenal in Philadelphia and it is assumed that they were of the North and Cheney pattern, a copy of the common French military pistol. Lewis also purchased " 1 Pair Pocket Pistols, Secret Triggers $10" from a private merchant. These were probably a cased pair of those little screw barrel pocket pistols with folding triggers. Pistols are mentioned several times in the Journals and they are always in the hands of Capt. Lewis. With only four pistols recorded for a group of 33 (Actual number is not verified) men then in this case I would say that pistol's were uncommon on that journey.
On another note here is a interesting entry that Capt. Clark made in his Journals December 4. 1805.
"""" Soon after Several Canoes of Indians from the village above came down dressed for the purpose as I Supposed of Paying us a friendly visit, they had Scarlet & blue blankets Salors jackets, overalls, Shirts and Hats independant of their Usial dress; the most of them had either war axes Spears or Bows Sprung with quivers of arrows, Muskets or pistols, and tin flasks to hold their powder; Those fellows we found assumeing and disagreeable, however we Smoked with them and treated them with every attention & friendship"""""
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This is going to come out wrong, but I'm sick and can't think of a better way to say it...
I always got the impression that (prior to repeating arms becoming common) pistols saw most of their use by people mounted on horseback. Of course there are exceptions... "Wealthier" individuals may have had them, and the cased sets for dueling, etc... But in my mind the common man may have had a harder time justifying the expenditure versus their effectiveness... Another long gun would probably be what he would choose to purchase.
Just my opinion.
Mike