AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: borderdogs on February 13, 2020, 02:18:44 AM
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Hi Guys,
I am putting parts together to build an early full stock Hawken flint rifle. I wanted to put a primitive buffalo on a patchbox and I was inspired by a patchbox Herb had done for one of his rifles. I have never done hand engraving before and I was thinking I would ask what kind of gravers I would need to get to engrave a buffalo. I attached a rough drawing I made of a primitive buffalo. Not a great drawing but similar to what I had in mind. I have been on some websites and watched some youtube videos but other than a handle I am just not sure what I should get to start practicing.
(https://i.ibb.co/h9zhRDV/sketch.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DW2sD5Q)
The border around the drawing is suppose to delineate the lid and I was thinking of a border following the lid perimeter. Any suggestions would be mcuh appreciated.
Rob
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Rob,
I’ve been piddling with it for a very short time. As a beginner, I’d recommend the universal sharpening jig from Lindsey, a couple graver blanks and the graver holder. You’ll need sharpening stones that work with the jig and a hammer. That design you’ve made looks like basic cuts to me but it takes a ton of practice to do even the simplest cuts. This site will give you something to look at.
https://www.airgraver.com/Manual-Engraving-Tools.htm
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Thanks Mike,
I didnt want to crowd your post on engraving you are way ahead of me! I checked out airgravers but figured I might just try hand engraving and see what I could do first before actually inventing in an air graving system. I wanted it to look like engraving rather than what I could do on a CNC or what you might get from a Foredom
Rob
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So what are the common graver shapes to make a basic design?
Rob
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Square is all you need.
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Thanks that helps.
Rob
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Rob,
The link that Mike posted was for the hammer and chisel equipment sold by Steve Lindsay. You need a 90 degree graver (point), handle for the graver, a hammer and a way to properly and consistently sharpen the graver. The Lindsay "90 degree parallel point" template set w diamond stones is a simple way to sharpen gravers. There are less expensive chasing hammers available elsewhere (Rio Grande).
Good luck,
Kevin
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I agree with Rich, for the buff all you need is a square graver. I can't praise the Lindsay template enough. It's so easy to create perfect point geometry, and it's just minutes to dress the point back up to snuff when you've chipped it. For chip it you will, when you're just starting out.
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I really appreciate all the recommendations, thank you. I like what I see on the So how important is it to have an engraving vise?
Rob
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(https://i.ibb.co/XCVR16c/DSC02879.jpg) (https://ibb.co/d57YFX8)
If you need/ want a loading block (.50) to match let me know :)
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Borderdogs Rob,
One thing to bear in mind, is the way even primitive buffalo were depicted.
Look at some old engravings of buffalo, and you will see they don't Look like a real buffalo. If it looks real it's wrong. (If you get my drift)
Even looking at the art-work of Catlin and such will show how they were depicted at the time...
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I have wondered if those early depictions are of eastern Bison now extinct. While odd looking in engraving, they often look similar to each other. Wood bison before they intermixed? Some are obviously drawn from a description, where the artist never saw one.
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Thanks again everyone. Yes, I understand the drift about primitive look. The sketch I made was just from my image in my mind not from some specific drawing. I figured doing a sketch that way it might look "primitive". I have looked at some engravings on Hawken rifles in particular an elk that is only an image of an actual elk its very primitive. That is the look I am after. I like the way the buff is looking toward something rather than just a profile.
After I made that sketch I left it alone and didn't look at it. Later at night before I went to bed I looked at it again and some peculiarities became apparent. The first one was that the body is out of scale from the head. The other is the head is more "refined" if you know what I mean. For a first attempt it got the shape and image I was looking for. I also have to remember that the lid of the pineapple is pretty small so anything on there like I am engraving there will not be as detailed as I depicted in my sketch. I am not very artsy I kind of struggle with anything that approaches art.
Thanks,
Rob
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You don’t need an engraving vise. Hot glue the patch box or whatever to a piece of 2X4 and hold it in a regular bench vise.
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I believe Taylor uses or used bondo for attaching the various parts to wooden blocks for engraving. Others do as well.
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Thanks sounds like a good idea Daryl, thanks,
Rob
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Here's a patchbox that Louie Parker did from a bench copy of a Sam Hawken rifle -
(https://i.ibb.co/6JMsdMr/Patch-box2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/KzPy1Pb)
(https://i.ibb.co/3y6DYxy/Patchbox-Close-Up-of-Buffalo2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8DvW4yD)
I knew I'd seen that buff somewhere!
Mike
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Gunnermike,
Yes that is the image I had in my mind when I did my sketch. I had seen that Louie Parker rifle a while back and I liked that buff engraving. His rendition looks just right.
Rob
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Borderdogs... All the animals I have seen on Hawken rifles are very much folk art. Some more than other. Most had the pig nose. I am attaching a photo of another buffalo box I did...This is a very close copy of a box on a rather ornate J&S Hawken. I would say the engraver either had a poor memory or never had seen a buffalo. Notice the horns. That seem to grow out of the shoulders
(https://i.ibb.co/G0GfD3J/H-buffalo.jpg) (https://ibb.co/SPHDg7x)
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Thanks Louie,
I like that look too and I know what you mean about folk art type engraving and I agree that the original engraver might not have seen a real buffalo. I appreciate those images it helps to conceptualize the buff better.
Rob
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Here is my patchbox Borderdog was referring to.
(https://i.ibb.co/1m429jG/58-Patchlbox-Buffalo.jpg) (https://ibb.co/FDd7BC4)
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Borderdogs, I think the buff you posted would look great on a PB door. Like Louies' buffalo, yours has the right amount of folksiness found on a lot of original engravings.
Here's another engraving, on the side plate of a Joe Long swivel breech rifle, with the same sort of folksie critters, and a ladder going up the trunk of the tree.
Click the picture for a larger size.
(https://i.ibb.co/1dBr7v3/Joseph-Long-015.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9VBbc8J)
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It sure helps to see all these engravings and it really helps to focus on the folksy look. Thanks Herb for posting your patchbox buff, yours was where I got the idea to do one. I really appreciate all the pictures and postings. I have ordered manual engraving tools from Lindsay and their sharpening kit so waiting for that stuff to come in. I have a bunch of material to start practicing. I will post updates on how this endeavor progresses. Thanks very much to everyone who has posted suggestions and pictures.
Rob
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Borderdogs..... This isn't a buffalo or pineapple box. I just thought you might find it of interest. Just another example of an animal on a box. Actually I copied the animal from a rifle by Stephen Odell.....LP
(https://i.ibb.co/XbPkWHw/IMGP0835-6.jpg) (https://ibb.co/JKTFcZh)
(https://i.ibb.co/F0yhqM1/d2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Gt8d3LD)
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Hi Louie,
Yes indeed it is very interesting thank you for posting it. How did you finish that box?
Rob
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I applied a light coat of 44-40 cold blue and allowed it to rust.. Then rubbed it out. May have repeated the process more than once.. What ever it takes.. This was about five years ago..Can't recall for sure....LP
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Thanks Louie, I haven't gotten all the parts together to start the rifle but its never too early to think about the finish. I have a number of Hawken rifles and other than a rust blue finish on the barrel or rust brown on the barrel of one all the other metal parts are color cased hardened finish. I like how that box looks after your treatment.
Rob