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General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: louieparker on February 25, 2020, 08:26:24 PM

Title: Mountain Rifle Barrel
Post by: louieparker on February 25, 2020, 08:26:24 PM

I have never attempted to  forge a barrel. Never had the proper equipment or I might have attempted it.  Most forged barrels  were ground or filed  flat..  This barrel was shaped by the hammer only and never filed.. This was done by some unknown East Tenn mountain gunsmith.. Not a bad look for a mountain rifle.......LP
(https://i.ibb.co/fXbgQD1/PICT0031.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7SHfbkY)

Title: Re: Mountain Rifle Barrel
Post by: Ky-Flinter on February 25, 2020, 08:43:16 PM

Now that barrel has character!

-Ron

Title: Re: Mountain Rifle Barrel
Post by: Kevin on February 25, 2020, 08:44:26 PM

Louieparker,

This is neat to see.  Thanks for posting the photo.  I've seen them unfinished on the bottom three flats but this is the first one all the way around.

Kevin

Title: Re: Mountain Rifle Barrel
Post by: tooguns on February 25, 2020, 09:56:38 PM

Like "Old Scaley" built by Enoch Hardin.

Title: Re: Mountain Rifle Barrel
Post by: Cades Cove Fiddler on February 25, 2020, 10:37:27 PM

 :D :D :D... Louie, you really know how to make me covet,...!!!... "tooguns" beat me to it,... I know you must have examined "Old Scaley" when Jerry would bring her to the Knoxville show,... my problem is that I cannot convince him that she wants to move back to Tennessee,... !!!....bring this one to Knoxville,.. I want to visit with her,... !!!... regards,... Cades Cove Fiddler,...

Title: Re: Mountain Rifle Barrel
Post by: rich pierce on February 25, 2020, 11:05:11 PM

They probably just draw-filed the side flats. Or were not persnickety about things at all!

Title: Re: Mountain Rifle Barrel
Post by: mr. no gold on February 25, 2020, 11:26:55 PM

Could be that the felllow that made this one was a real artisan and left it this way to 'show off' a bit. No one else was quite as good as he was
and unfiled as it is stands it is, a great barrel made in the old way.
Dick

Title: Re: Mountain Rifle Barrel
Post by: louieparker on February 26, 2020, 12:14:49 AM

Rich the sides were not filed.. But I think he was rather persnickety with the rest of the rifle.. Which we wouldn't expect looking at the barrel today.....LP

Title: Re: Mountain Rifle Barrel
Post by: Longknife on February 26, 2020, 01:39:50 AM

Louie, Surely you are going to show us more!!!!!????? ;)

Title: Re: Mountain Rifle Barrel
Post by: Tanselman on February 26, 2020, 01:58:14 AM

Reminds me of a couple of makers in southeastern Kentucky...with TN roots...who hammered out "finished" barrels. John Shell of Leslie County is probably the best known KY maker who left his barrels with hammer marks on all flats...no filing on any flats. After years of not wanting such an "ugly" rifle, I finally purchased Jerry Noble's signed John Shell rifle with the great barrel inscription down at Mel's show at Lake Cumberland a couple of weeks ago. It demonstrates a significant part of KY's early gunmaking in remote areas where there was no cash...mostly barter...and even percussion locks were still being made by the gunsmith until the mid-1800s since there was no money for "store bought" parts. Fascinating rifle that accurately reflects the pervasive poverty of KY's early Cumberland Plateau region and its frugal Scots-Irish hill people...even if basically a "stick with a barrel." Shelby Gallien

Title: Re: Mountain Rifle Barrel
Post by: louieparker on February 26, 2020, 03:10:21 AM

Longknife... I think I have posted  some photos of this rifle at some point..So every one has probably seen it..  But  I will redo it tomorrow.
 So if by chance the Cades Cove Fiddler hasn't seen it he won't loose sleep tonight thinking about it..He seems to really get worked up over these old rusty mountain rifles.  This is a classic mountain rifle and he might not be able to stand the stain!...LP

Title: Re: Mountain Rifle Barrel
Post by: louieparker on February 26, 2020, 07:30:25 PM

This is the rifle that has the hammer marked barrel. The Fiddler and I have about the same feelings for these old mountain rifles. We both get a bit excited when we see a good example. I am probably a wee bit biased but to me this rifle has all the characteristics that make an East Tn mountain rifle. From the poured chevron nose cap to the cigar shaped patch box and over the comb barrel tang. The deep curved rear trigger and shape of the lock bolt plate.  It's unsigned.. LP


(https://i.ibb.co/2ZgbcvB/PICT0010.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nPzWQ7S)

(https://i.ibb.co/KFH69Nt/PICT0017.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NZzxL10)

(https://i.ibb.co/vYzRdBj/PICT0014.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4dN3SfV)

(https://i.ibb.co/TRGZ4G4/PICT0019.jpg) (https://ibb.co/d6vSPvP)

(https://i.ibb.co/JnWKXv4/PICT0039.jpg) (https://ibb.co/PxsNBcn)

(https://i.ibb.co/27Dn2vM/PICT0025.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6R3nhHt)

Title: Re: Mountain Rifle Barrel
Post by: Dave Marsh on February 26, 2020, 07:46:14 PM

That is one fine gun.  She is a beauty.  Thanks for posting.  8)

Dave

Title: Re: Mountain Rifle Barrel
Post by: louieparker on February 26, 2020, 10:32:58 PM

Shelby welcome to the club ! You have seen the light.... LP

Title: Re: Mountain Rifle Barrel
Post by: Robert Wolfe on February 27, 2020, 12:13:45 AM

Beautiful lines - but I have to keep telling myself that large lock panels are OK on this type of rifle. Guess I've been brainwashed!

Title: Re: Mountain Rifle Barrel
Post by: scottmc on February 27, 2020, 02:56:29 AM

Louie, you and the CCF aren't the only ones that get your neck hairs bristled when they see a mountain rifle.  I'm way up here in southeastern PA and I get all shook up.  That is a beauty and it's almost a crime that the maker didn't indicate to us who he was.  Sure looks Unicoi to me.  Great find and thanks for sharing with us.  By the way, do u have a close up of that pewter nosecap?

Title: Re: Mountain Rifle Barrel
Post by: Cades Cove Fiddler on February 27, 2020, 07:33:45 PM

 :o :o :o... Thanx for the photos, Louie,... !!!... I can now sleep and dream peacefully tonight,... !!!.... I did some back-research and remember now reading this post of June 5-7, 2010, titled, "A Darn-Tootin Nice Tennessee Rifle",... all specs for this gun are listed in your post there,.. I didn't realize at that time that the barrel was in "as-forged" condition...adds to her charm, in my opinion,... !!!... she really does exemplify everything you want in a fine example of a "Tennessee Rifle",... I do hope that Randal has photos of her for his upcoming new book,... she should be on the cover,... !!! ... Do bring her to Knoxville,.. she & I need to visit,.... Thanx again,.... regards... CCF...

Title: Re: Mountain Rifle Barrel
Post by: louieparker on February 27, 2020, 09:03:09 PM

Fiddler I don't recall that post. But my memory has a few problems. No Randal has not photographed this rifle .. But he did a Gross or two.
CCF your comment on "covet" reminds me of an old friend, He would say "I know the Bible tells you not to covet,but I sure would like to have that rifle !"

Scottmac....Glad you liked the rifle, CCF and I think you have good taste,,Sorry I don't have photos of the nose cap. Things around here  are not good for photo work right now..

Robert just tell yourself that you are looking at Tenn. Mountain rifle and not a Bedford County. The wide border with a completely flat bottom (across the trigger guard front finial )  is very common on these rifles,

Title: Re: Mountain Rifle Barrel
Post by: Collector on March 01, 2020, 03:00:48 AM

Quote from: Cades Cove Fiddler on February 27, 2020, 07:33:45 PM

:o :o :o... Thanx for the photos, Louie,... !!!... I can now sleep and dream peacefully tonight,... !!!.... I did some back-research and remember now reading this post of June 5-7, 2010, titled, "A Darn-Tootin Nice Tennessee Rifle",... all specs for this gun are listed in your post there,.. I didn't realize at that time that the barrel was in "as-forged" condition...adds to her charm, in my opinion,... !!!... she really does exemplify everything you want in a fine example of a "Tennessee Rifle",... I do hope that Randal has photos of her for his upcoming new book,... she should be on the cover,... !!! ... Do bring her to Knoxville,.. she & I need to visit,.... Thanx again,.... regards... CCF...

Would you kindly post a 'link' to that June 5-7, 2010 post? 

Even someone with a preference for the transitional and early PA schools can 'cross-over' to appreciate the lines and workmanship apparent in this longrifle.  This rifle was loved...

Title: Re: Mountain Rifle Barrel
Post by: louieparker on March 01, 2020, 04:17:48 AM

Collector this I hope will get you there.....LP  https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=10720.msg101907#msg101907 

Title: Re: Mountain Rifle Barrel
Post by: Cades Cove Fiddler on March 01, 2020, 08:00:05 AM

 8) 8)... Thanx, Louie,... your post with specs is about 19 posts down from the top,... I'm still coveting.... !!!!... will ask my maker for forgiveness later,.... CCF...

Title: Re: Mountain Rifle Barrel
Post by: mountainad82 on March 02, 2020, 01:14:58 AM

Fantastic rifle Mr. Parker! I recently acquired a McInturff rifle with a similar “as forged” barrel. Had never seen another like it until now.

-Adam Wright

(https://i.ibb.co/7n7m2Mq/66-CCFD51-18-CF-4140-B421-E31-BD7263-D1-E.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hBpzDQS)

(https://i.ibb.co/br19sK8/3-E5-B5119-B515-4959-82-BE-C18-C172051-D5.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4jWr8V5)

Title: Re: Mountain Rifle Barrel
Post by: louieparker on March 02, 2020, 02:28:30 AM

Adam thanks for the photos..  Not too many around like that.. Now The Fiddler will be wanting to see more than 12 inches of barrel.., So you should  post some photos of the rifle.  LP

Title: Re: Mountain Rifle Barrel
Post by: Cades Cove Fiddler on March 02, 2020, 04:35:08 PM

 ;D ;D... now, ... you're right, Louie,... !!!... I think Mr. Parker wants more photos too, Adam,.. !!!.... Start a new post and satisfy our craving,... !!!.... is she marked by Isreal McInturff,...??? ... nice one,.... CCF

Title: Re: Mountain Rifle Barrel
Post by: Greg Pennell on March 02, 2020, 05:50:36 PM

Dana, when I blow the picture up, it looks to me (from this angle) like a lightly struck “L M”.  Of course, it could be an “I” as well...only closer inspection will tell. (In other words, more pictures, Adam, PLEASE!)

Greg

Title: Re: Mountain Rifle Barrel
Post by: Craig Wilcox on March 02, 2020, 06:15:05 PM

In it's own way and fashion, she is as beautiful a work of art as the Mona Lisa.  I think most of us "covet" it just a wee bit.

Title: Re: Mountain Rifle Barrel
Post by: Collector on March 02, 2020, 09:15:03 PM

Quote from: louieparker on March 01, 2020, 04:17:48 AM

Collector this I hope will get you there.....LP  https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=10720.msg101907#msg101907

louieparker,  Thanks for providing that link.  I shall not covet, though I certainly would like to see more detailed photos accompanied by dimensions/descriptions (if at all possible,) as I quietly admire it.  It's certainly worthy of more study. 

Using your rifle as a vehicle, I'd like to encourage 'Tanselman' to share with us, a rifle in his collection and do the same with his attributed Robert Hughes #197 longrifle.  Another fine, if not another exemplary example of the iron mounted 'Mountain' schools.

Thanks again.       

Title: Re: Mountain Rifle Barrel
Post by: Tanselman on March 03, 2020, 12:35:46 AM

The John Shell rifle was fully illustrated in "Kentucky Gunmakers 1775-1900." I will not have access to get photos for 2 weeks, but can post at/after that time. It is NOT an attractive rifle like Louie's TN mountain rifle; rather, it is an example of how cheaply some rifles were made in southeastern Kentucky's hill country in the percussion era, in areas strapped for hard money. It looks like a low budget TN rifle, where Shell first lived before moving to KY. Some other southeastern KY rifles made in the then-depressed rural areas have similar hammered, unfiled barrels.

The only comparison is in the hammer-finished barrels...not the rifle itself. With everyone admiring Louie's fine mountain rifle...for its attractive "mountain" stock architecture...Shell's southeastern KY rifles look more like "sticks with barrels." I love KY-made rifles, and some hill country rifles are drop-dead gorgeous, like those made by Pleasant Wilson of Clay County. But even I have to admit that KY guns by Shell are the ugliest bridesmaids at the wedding.

Shelby Gallien

 

Title: Re: Mountain Rifle Barrel
Post by: louieparker on March 03, 2020, 01:12:26 AM

Collector ,,, Sorry but now is not a good time for me to get photos.  If there are any measurement I can provide you, I will. Glad you and others have enjoyed the rifle.. I have enjoyed presenting it.  LP

Title: Re: Mountain Rifle Barrel
Post by: Collector on March 03, 2020, 02:02:27 AM

Quote from: Tanselman on March 03, 2020, 12:35:46 AM

The John Shell rifle was fully illustrated in "Kentucky Gunmakers 1775-1900." I will not have access to get photos for 2 weeks, but can post at/after that time. It is NOT an attractive rifle like Louie's TN mountain rifle; rather, it is an example of how cheaply some rifles were made in southeastern Kentucky's hill country in the percussion era, in areas strapped for hard money. It looks like a low budget TN rifle, where Shell first lived before moving to KY. Some other southeastern KY rifles made in then-depressed rural areas have similar hammered, unfiled barrels.

The only comparison is in the hammer-finished barrels...not the rifle itself. With everyone admiring Louie's fine mountain rifle...for its attractive "mountain" stock architecture...Shell's southeastern KY rifles look more like "sticks with barrels." I love KY-made rifles, and some hill country rifles are drop-dead gorgeous, like those made by Pleasant Wilson of Clay County. But even I have to admit that KY guns by Shell are the ugliest bridesmaids at the wedding.

Shelby Gallien

Ahhh, but your attributed Robert Hughes, #197 in your book, it quite a different longrifle, altogether.  Simple in appearance and rather elegant in it's lines and architecture. 

That would be another one whose photos and dimensions are worthy being coveted, digitally of course.

Title: Re: Mountain Rifle Barrel
Post by: Tanselman on March 03, 2020, 06:07:45 AM

Collector...I am not sure what Robert Hughes attributed rifle you are referring to...you may have my "Kentucky Gunmakers" book mixed up with another book. Illustrated rifles in my book are identified by a dual number such as #8-12a, which would indicate Chapter 8, 12th rifle illustrated, 1st view of rifle. I have no #197 in my book, which is what you referenced.

Of course, being admittedly prejudiced but still a good judge of stock architecture, in my opinion the finest rifle stock ever mounted with a barrel is on the rather plain "Pleasant Wilson" flint rifle in my book, shown in Figures 10-12a & b. It's iron mounted with a small iron, octagon shaped, patchbox but little else...except the most beautiful, perfect  stock I've ever seen. Of course, I don't currently have photos of that rifle with me, either! It's a Kentucky mountain rifle that puts most others to shame. I "coveted" it for many years after first seeing a picture of it perhaps 25+ years ago. God wasn't too up-set with my "covetness" because three years ago it came up for sale in a California auction, held on the eve of the Super Bowl when most guys were focused elsewhere...and it went for much less than I had planned to pay for it...although my wife still thought it was no steal!  Shelby Gallien

Title: Re: Mountain Rifle Barrel
Post by: Collector on March 03, 2020, 08:58:21 AM

Tanselman,

I offer a  sincere mea culpa.  Without thinking, I associated you with Bill Ivey's attributed Robert Hughes longrifle, from his collection, which he published a few photos of in his book, "North Carolina Schools of Longrifles 1765 - 1865," as #197.

As a historical footnote, apparently there was a long-standing dispute between TN and NC state governments over their shared border.  Not sure that the inhabitants along that disputed territory cared one wit, as it had little effect on their existence, or way of life.  Builders of the mountain schools rifles adopting crossover regional styles and features to their own local and stylistic preferences.

Perhaps Bill Ivey will take note and contribute to this discussion.

This is the attributed Robert Hughes longrifle #197 that I was referring to:
   
(https://i.ibb.co/KDLhbWJ/Rbt-Hughes-NC-Appalachian-School-197.jpg)

Title: Re: Mountain Rifle Barrel
Post by: Daryl on March 03, 2020, 09:16:55 AM

Nice. Those are SOME lock panels on that rifle.

Title: Re: Mountain Rifle Barrel
Post by: Tanselman on March 03, 2020, 09:19:10 AM

Collector...I think we both admire mountain rifles with North Carolina influences. Pleasant Wilson came from NC as a child to KY, so was influenced by the graceful NC rifles. I found a full length view of the fine Pleasant Wilson rifle, made in Clay Co., Kentucky. Note the shortened forestock grip area and 47" barrel with four progressively spaced pipes. The curl is superb beneath the darkened finish.  Hope you enjoy it. Shelby Gallien
(https://i.ibb.co/1f2GCSb/Mt-1-Full-length.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zhfV3kN)

Title: Re: Mountain Rifle Barrel
Post by: louieparker on March 03, 2020, 06:27:20 PM

Shelby that rifle does have great styling..I thought I recognized this rifle from the seventies.. But on closer study the box appears to be iron..The rifle I recall had a very similiar box but was silver and everything else was iron and walnut stock as I recall.. It was owned by Carl Van Fleet in the seventies..It also had great lines.. I would bet by the same hand. But that has been awhile back!!  LP

Title: Re: Mountain Rifle Barrel
Post by: Tanselman on March 03, 2020, 10:33:25 PM

Louie, this rifle walked into Jerry Noble's show about 30 years ago. Curt photographed it, just full length front and back shots. Jerry purchased it but turned around and re-sold it quickly...and it disappeared for a long time. Fortunately, Jerry gave me the two old photos of the gun when he knew I was researching Kentucky-made firearms...and that was when I fell in love with it. I never thought I would see it in person until, bingo, it showed up in a CA auction on Super Bowl Sunday...only gun in auction if I recall, kind of a fluke to be there. I was driving south on Interstate 75 in Florida when I got the call to phone bid on it...I got the rifle rather quickly, no competition, and was so excited afterwards I drove 20 miles past the exit where I was supposed to get off, before I realized what I was doing.

Jerry had another damaged Pleasant Wilson years ago with some small silver inlays, but barrel shortened and iron guard lost. I grabbed it immediately, but never got around to restoring it. Then I picked up this fine Wilson, and last June I was able to acquire the fanciest known Pleasant Wilson with quite a bit of silver on it, and a round Ger. silver patchbox, also with great maple in the stock. I have seen two other Wilson rifles over the years [not in great shape], and all had maple stocks, similar architecture with significant butt curvature, long TN tang ending down in front of the comb and terminating in a spade-shaped finial. These rifles all have the unique feature of the iron guard having no front extension. Instead, the tang bolt comes down through the extended trigger plate [which looks like the guard's front extension] and screws into the front end of the guard's bow where it curls back up and in. But of all the Wilson rifles, the one I posted above has the most beautiful stock architecture...the others were close, but not quite...

When I picked up the signed John Shell rifle of Jerry's several weeks ago down at Lake Cumberland, I actually bought it because I had just sold the damaged Pleasant Wilson that I never got around to restoring. I had cash in my pocket...so for the first time in my life, I decided to buy an ugly gun! But Shell's work is important to the study of Kentucky's Cumberland Plateau region, or hill country, and I am glad to finally get it after seeing it each year at Princeton for 25 years. Just in case anyone has an interest in John Shell, a somewhat notorious gunsmith in Kentucky who at one time claimed he was the oldest living man in the world [don't believe it!], I did an extensive, 3-part article on his life and known guns in "Muzzle Blasts" back in Nov. and Dec. of 2011 and Jan. of 2012.  Shelby

Title: Re: Mountain Rifle Barrel
Post by: louieparker on March 03, 2020, 11:26:45 PM

Shelby some of the details you mentioned may or may not have been on the other rifle.. can't recall the details. I may be way off on the shape of the stock..But I remember is as very stylish..
I do hope your wife was with you when you passed your exit.  That would probably have resulted in a very educational speech..  LP

Title: Re: Mountain Rifle Barrel
Post by: Dennis Glazener on March 10, 2020, 10:35:03 PM

One of our members "Howard" sent me these photos of three hammer forged barrels and I asked permission to post them. Here they are. I will let Howard tell you more about them.
Dennis

This is the first one

(https://i.ibb.co/f2tZz5J/DSCN2807.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vHmf6G9)

(https://i.ibb.co/DQLL7vt/DSCN2814.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cQxxNZ1)

(https://i.ibb.co/6b01CsY/DSCN2808.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VDYQ4BV)

This is the second one

(https://i.ibb.co/BgGHS24/DSCN2809.jpg) (https://ibb.co/TH1DFMK)

(https://i.ibb.co/4T4FR6D/DSCN2810.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fprXdhK)

(https://i.ibb.co/x56bRw5/DSCN2811.jpg) (https://ibb.co/q1p8Ph1)

This is the third one
I'm always in awe when I see a barrel hammered out & used & not even filed.  The person who did this was a craftsman. Howard

(https://i.ibb.co/X5Hzd5c/DSCN2812.jpg) (https://ibb.co/M1dRj1F)

(https://i.ibb.co/8cyMf7J/DSCN2813.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hfGs4mk)

Title: Re: Mountain Rifle Barrel
Post by: Tanselman on March 10, 2020, 10:52:24 PM

Three views of same rifle...but not enough to show us what the actual rifle itself looks like. Any chance we can get half-length views of front and rear, showing from butt up to about 8" past the lock plate area? This one almost looks like a Kentucky-made rifle, so it got my interest tweaked. Also nice to know barrel length and bore size, and if any name or initials are on top barrel flat several inches behind rear sight. Shelby Gallien

Title: Re: Mountain Rifle Barrel
Post by: Dennis Glazener on March 10, 2020, 10:59:08 PM

Quote from: Tanselman on March 10, 2020, 10:52:24 PM

Three views of same rifle...but not enough to show us what the actual rifle itself looks like. Any chance we can get half-length views of front and rear, showing from butt up to about 8" past the lock plate area? This one almost looks like a Kentucky-made rifle, so it got my interest tweaked. Also nice to know barrel length and bore size, and if any name or initials are on top barrel flat several inches behind rear sight. Shelby Gallien

That will be up to Howard, I will be glad to post them for him if he has or is willing to take the photos.
Dennis

Title: Re: Mountain Rifle Barrel
Post by: Howard on March 11, 2020, 02:39:39 AM

Shelby, When I get a chance I'll get some other pictures. Didn't you photograph this years ago ?  I have owned this relic for about 50 years. It came out of the Wm. Vietor Shop. After Billy died I bought several  of the old relics from his son.  Billy got this from a local family that came out of Kentucky. It has a 41 1/2 inch barrel & around .40 cal. bore. Gene