AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: Bigmon on March 01, 2020, 04:41:57 PM
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Found a box with a couple dozen RB's amongst my plunder this morning, of what appeared to be 50's and 54's, so I was micing them for size.
As I did so I found they varied by several thousandths in roundness. I'd turn it one way and it would be .533, another way .536, another .535. Point is I could make them about what ever I wanted? They were supposed to be .535 swaged Hornady balls.
I have hear there are variances in weight, but size?
Any comments or idears??
Just wondering.
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Bigmon,
Your post prompted me to take a very quick look at three different Hornady swaged roundballs marked on the boxs as 490, .570 and .310.
Measuring 5 different balls they varied as follows:
.497 to .491
,570 to .573
.303 to .312
As you suggested, you can get about any number you want on a given ball based how you turned it and care in placing the mike.
Weights were as follows:
Nominal .50 balls: 178.3, 178.8, 178.7, 178.3, and 179.1 grains
Nominal .570 balls: 279.1, 279.9, 279.4, 280.0, and 279.4 grains
Nominal .310 balls: 44.9, 44.9, 44.9, 44.9, and 45.0 grains
I think that I now need to go back and see what my cast round balls run. I expect that, in addition to my technique, different molds and manufacturers of the mold would introduce measurable variation in roundness and weights thrown. Then, of course, there is the influence of lead purity on cast weight. I'm sure that someone on the forum has done a more critical evaluation that my "quickie".
I am also sure that the above variation pales when compared to the variation produced by my aging eyes, etc. on my shooting!
J.B.
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A thousands of an inch is very small.
It has been a few years since I have been at the Hornady plant in Grand Island NE, but when I was there they simply placed the round balls in plastic cement mixers with a towel thrown in and let them tumble. When I asked how long they let them tumble, the comment was something along the lines of "until we turn it off"
I suspect that the out of roundness has something to do with the concrete mixer tumbling.
Fleener
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Since the patch ends up imprinting on the ball, I suspect that by the time the ball is seated on the powder, it's out of round , even if it started out perfect. When fired, obturation will do it's part, so I just concern myself with weight when sorting them. I don't believe a few thousand's difference diameter wise matters.
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I don't think a little out of round will matter. With a heavy hunting load I dont think the ball will be round when it leaves the muzzle anyway. I did have an older Lyman mold with halfes that sidn't match up and weren't round. Two miss aligned eggs shoots poorly. I've also noticed swagged balls not being very round. Picked up some .310 hornadys for the grandsons cap gun and they have a belt around the middle.
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Out-of-round balls shot poorly in my .40. The good shooting balls were from a single cavity Lyman mould casting .398"x.398" and one cavity of another mould casting
.400x.400 - in the same rifle. Both of these ball sizes shot groups under 1/2" at .50 yards with the same 10oz denim patches I had measured at .0225" compressed.
The oblong cavity that shot well over double group, almost triple size (both bench and offhand) cast .394" x .400". The offhand group with them was terrible, several
inches, instead of just 1 1/2" as with the "round" balls. They were horrid shooting balls.
So - do I believe round works better than out of round - absolutely!
Swaged commercial balls do not shoot as well as well cast balls.
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A swaged ball out of round 3 to 4 thousands shoots better for me than a cast ball with a 5, 10, 15 thousands spru sticking out the front. just my experience, your mileage may vary.
Percy
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I have to agree with Snapper...the tumbling of lead probably leads to slight deformation of the balls. I shoot Hornady's a lot as well as some of my own cast balls and I don't think the differences of a couple of thousands of an inch will make any real difference. The patches compress enough to make up for any differences as slight as that.
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The weight of the balls is more important.
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A Lyman mold in my stable is marked .445" but is out of round. The ball shoots as well as I can make it shoot so It's a nonissue IMHO. I load it same as I do the .440" ball.
Some time back I got a .400" dbl cavity Lyman from Daryl. One cavity casts under that size by a margin. I don't worry about it but still think keeping the ball separated by size isn't that difficult.
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I may be retired but have much better things to do than measure balls. Couldn't get this post from rattling around my head. Went out to the shop, opened 1 box of .530 and 1 box of .395. Randomly selected 10 out of the box of 100 (10%). Found most balls either right on or small but never by more than 2/1000, there were 2 or 3 that measured 1/1000 over.
Good enough for the "Muskrat"!
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That's also been my findings on cast ball, Muskrat.
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A thousands of an inch is very small.
It has been a few years since I have been at the Hornady plant in Grand Island NE, but when I was there they simply placed the round balls in plastic cement mixers with a towel thrown in and let them tumble. When I asked how long they let them tumble, the comment was something along the lines of "until we turn it off"
I suspect that the out of roundness has something to do with the concrete mixer tumbling.
Fleener
Actually the tumbling is what makes them rounder. If they would not do it if it made them worse.
I will have to take some Hornadys and Speers out the shop and measure them. Most Hornadys have a visible belt at least the 490 to 535 sizes. Speers appear to be rounder.
Shame we don't have a shot tower running that is tall enough make up to 69 caliber balls these would be rounder. A good mould will cast a better ball but technique and patience (or the lack of either) can make or break bullet casting.
Dan
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The swaged balls are made by a machine that cuts off a hunk of lead and then squeezes that in a die. All this happens at a high speed. There is no way the process can produce a perfect sphere every time. Any misalignment of the die or slight difference in the way the lead is cut will produce out of round or off weight balls.
The biggest problem with swagged balls is the presence of voids in the ball. They can be anywhere and because the ball has no sprue, the void could be placed on the equator of the ball instead of the poles as in a cast ball. ( typically air bubbles occur just under the sprue of a cast ball, and placing the ball sprue up will center the void and have less affect on accuracy.)
I have tried different brands of swaged balls for over the log shooting. I never get the accuracy that I get with cast balls, even though I weigh and sort them. I’ve measured differences in diameter, as well as several grains of weight difference in the swagged balls. I get weight differences in the cast balls also, due to voids, but even my “culls” shoot better than the swagged balls.
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My Hornady .530 balls are pretty consistent at ,529 to ,531, swaged. Don't currently have a grain scale.
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Good post Dan.
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Good post Dan.
Consulting a feeble memory,I recall reading in Walter Cline's book called
"The Muzzle Loading Rifle,Then and Now" he did make some tests on round
balls that were really round as opposed to those that were not and they tests
favored the out of round balls.I no longer have the book but I will bet there
area number of them on this forum.
Bob Roller
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The swaged balls are made by a machine that cuts off a hunk of lead and then squeezes that in a die. All this happens at a high speed. There is no way the process can produce a perfect sphere every time. Any misalignment of the die or slight difference in the way the lead is cut will produce out of round or off weight balls.
The biggest problem with swagged balls is the presence of voids in the ball. They can be anywhere and because the ball has no sprue, the void could be placed on the equator of the ball instead of the poles as in a cast ball. ( typically air bubbles occur just under the sprue of a cast ball, and placing the ball sprue up will center the void and have less affect on accuracy.)
I have tried different brands of swaged balls for over the log shooting. I never get the accuracy that I get with cast balls, even though I weigh and sort them. I’ve measured differences in diameter, as well as several grains of weight difference in the swagged balls. I get weight differences in the cast balls also, due to voids, but even my “culls” shoot better than the swagged balls.
And as I understand it the process occurs in various pressing stages... It isn't one stroke of the press and a finished ball is formed.
Mike
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At this stage of my life, I regret every minute I wasted measuring, and weighing, round balls. An old shooter friend finally got me straight on this subject. He took me to the range, and whipped me like a red headed stepchild with the balls I had laboriously rejected. He said that extra time shooting at the range trumps weighing balls, magic lubes, and more expensive powders.
Hungry Horse
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Hungry Horse: my friend I will now not add to this post as you've hit the nail on the head. More shooting time less trying to reinvent the wheel (just couldn't help myself with this last nugget of wisdom).
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For years I hand tumbled my cast balls in a plastic coffee can with the lid on. It evened out the sprue fairly nice and gave a nice fine dimpled surface.....similar to a golf ball texture. Years ago I remember this technique being debated and the benefits of the texture had accuracy merit. The bag mold type sprue shows great improvement from a can roll.
kw
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At this stage of my life, I regret every minute I wasted measuring, and weighing, round balls. An old shooter friend finally got me straight on this subject. He took me to the range, and whipped me like a red headed stepchild with the balls I had laboriously rejected. He said that extra time shooting at the range trumps weighing balls, magic lubes, and more expensive powders.
Hungry Horse
I agree but what happens when you have two equal shooters? Do the balls matter then?
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At this stage of my life, I regret every minute I wasted measuring, and weighing, round balls. An old shooter friend finally got me straight on this subject. He took me to the range, and whipped me like a red headed stepchild with the balls I had laboriously rejected. He said that extra time shooting at the range trumps weighing balls, magic lubes, and more expensive powders.
Hungry Horse
HH that's the way I feel about having to wipe or swab the bore, thus we don't have to. Wiping or swabbing is just that much waisted time a feller could be shooting.
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Yes, Daryl but your PRB fits so tight you have to use big powder loads to get it out the barrel. :)
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YES, of course.
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You guys downplaying the variance in in swaged balls need to hush!!!
All these years I just figured that I was a lousy shot... Now I find out I could be blaming my poor marksmanship on the variance in the roundness and weight of my round ball... And you guys are saying that isn't it either!
Oh well, I still have "lock time" and "inconsistent loading" to hide my shortcomings.
Broad sides of barns everywhere can still rest easy.
;D
Mike
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Most shooters are not going to notice the difference between a ball that is perfect and a ball that is out of round and off weight at 50 yards or so. I shoot over the log matches at 60 yards. The groups I get with swaged round balls average only slightly larger than the best groups I get with perfect cast balls. However; at the end of the match, for the top few shooters, 1/10th of an inch can be the difference, so anything a shooter can do to be more consistent will be worth it.
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Exactly. I need every advantage I can get.
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Or once the powder charge is ignited behind the ball it is no longer round . Just my 2 cents worth .
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Most shooters are not going to notice the difference between a ball that is perfect and a ball that is out of round and off weight at 50 yards or so. I shoot over the log matches at 60 yards. The groups I get with swaged round balls average only slightly larger than the best groups I get with perfect cast balls. However; at the end of the match, for the top few shooters, 1/10th of an inch can be the difference, so anything a shooter can do to be more consistent will be worth it.
Exactly, horses for courses.
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Sometimes I tumble balls in steel shot with graphite. They come out black and have no indication of the sprue location. I doubt it matters on how they shoot.
IF you want balls of a particular diameter you could run them through a size die. That could be a tapered hole in plate that was nicely polished. The balls would then be slightly elongated. The diameter would be consistent. I used to do this to Benjamin 22 caliber balls for use in a 22 ML.
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Easiest way to get consistency in round balls, is to cast them.
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Easiest way to get consistency in round balls, is to cast them.
Indeed!
The old timers would use a scissors mold and cast them over a campfire.
Not a darn thing wrong with doing that today, either. You DO NOT need a multi hundred dollar sophisticated casting setup. Make friends with local roofers and you might find yourself with free soft pure lead roof flashing. Go somewhere where you can relax and legally harvest firewood and have at it under the stars, away from people and the virus!
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Easiest way to get consistency in round balls, is to cast them.
Indeed!
The old timers would use a scissors mold and cast them over a campfire.
Not a darn thing wrong with doing that today, either. You DO NOT need a multi hundred dollar sophisticated casting setup. Make friends with local roofers and you might find yourself with free soft pure lead roof flashing. Go somewhere where you can relax and legally harvest firewood and have at it under the stars, away from people and the virus!
I don't think I would call most era molds, scissor molds. And most of them weren't truly round either. I would also suggest you do you casting under an overhead of some kind unless you enjoy sudden lead tinsel.
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This is a sweater I was wearing while casting at the basement door. A moth - brown one, dropped into the 20 pound electric pot and the pot emptied itself, immediately.
I was wearing eye glasses and a hat. Good thing. I only had a few small burns on my face. The basement door, a steel one, still has flecks of lead stuck to it, from the
ground to the top.
(https://i.ibb.co/nzsf04Y/babine002.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6gRbZGT)
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Easiest way to get consistency in round balls, is to cast them.
Indeed!
The old timers would use a scissors mold and cast them over a campfire.
Not a darn thing wrong with doing that today, either. You DO NOT need a multi hundred dollar sophisticated casting setup. Make friends with local roofers and you might find yourself with free soft pure lead roof flashing. Go somewhere where you can relax and legally harvest firewood and have at it under the stars, away from people and the virus!
Did the old timers use roofers?
Settle down. Just some old man humor.